Why dead hard should be nerfed
Comments
-
When does this ever happen??
0 -
That's the problem it doesn't , no survivor is going to make that mistake and risk wasting there precious dead hard .
1 -
To be fair COH should have never been released in the state that it did. Honestly makes me worry since BHVR developers have now went 2 for 2 on Survivor only releases where they both had busted perks that should have never been released in the state that they came out in. However, these are the same developers that had the astounding foresight to come out with Hex: Pentimento soon after introducing the boon mechanic in the first place. Only now months after do they come up with yet another Band-Aid that is yet another half-baked idea to a mechanic that in my opinion was also half baked.
I agree on the lax of strong Survivor perks that have been introduced but I believe that it is the fault of DH. This is the reason why the meta needs changing in the first place but there are only two ways to change a meta in any game. The first is to power creep the current meta, which would end up being disastrous if done incorrectly (see again release states of MOM and COH). The second would be to nerf the most problematic things about the current meta so that it forces people to at least look at other things. DH itself is the reason that BHVR developers cannot come up with other strong perks because it represents a roadblock that they cannot surpass, much like Nurse on the Killer side. After all, why use something that is weaker than what I already have?
In my opinion the best way to "nerf" it without it losing the skillful applications of it would be to just have it lose its invincibility and have it on a 60s cooldown. That way Survivors that don't time it right can still be hit and not be carried by I-frames and can yet still use it to extend chases.
1 -
"just wait it out"
We still trying to make this a valid argument into year 6?
6 -
Boil Over: An old perk that had a small buff. Killers complained and it got nerfed back to the trash bin.
CoH: A slightly above average perk that has had not one but 3 undeserved nerfs. Now it is useless. I haven't used it in over 2 months.
No other perk comes to mind, except for Windows of Opportunity getting buffed that is worth using.
If you do look at every DLC, killers get meta changing perks all the time. No matter how busted, they somehow have remained completely untouched.
0 -
awful take
2 -
In my opinion the perfect nerf would be only give invulnerability if the survivor had the broken status but otherwise keep it the same.
0 -
You can't "bait out" Dead Hard used to extend a loop. This has been debunked over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's the #1 lie persisting on this forum.
1 -
Ah yes, the "small buff" that literally made it so that survivors were impossible to hook in certain spots
2 -
ok
0 -
Maybe the person you're replying to doesn't know that the devs have said that DH has issues/is literally slated for change and is not arguing in bad faith.
Hope this is the case, at least.
1 -
If there was a decent perk in the game that causes exhaustion on survivors many killers would use it. Right now we have Blood Echo and Fearmonger, which aren't too good, and at least Fearmonger gets used quite often. The problem with those 2 perks is that you have to give up 1 of your 4 perk slots just for the chases to end when they should end. Even then both perks have plenty of counterplay.
0 -
Fearmonger does ######### all vs dead hard. It's not hard to stand still for 5 seconds in a chase
1 -
5500 post count and being one of the forums top 5 most Biased Survivor Mans makes this outlook not so good on my Magic 8-Ball.
4 -
Mind game that get totally nullified when won by the killer if the survivor have DH
0 -
2022 and some players still thinking that DH is balanced xD I knew that DBD was full of mediocre players, but not to this point.
- Survivor extends too much the chase and can´t reach the next loop, No problem, Dead Hard and pallet/Window.
- Survivor eats killer´s mindgame, no problem, Dead Hard and there we go again.
- Survivor makes a mistake during a chase like jumping through the pallet from the wrong side, no problem, Dead Hard and invencibility frames that saves the survivor with zero skill and after making a mistake.
- Survivor is opening the gates and killer find him, smack him but he escape, because guess what, Dead Hard.
Yes my dear potato survivors, without perks that gives you a ton of second chances, this game will have 100% killrate because the vast majority of that side players are a bunch of Second chance perks carrieds.
I can´t wait to see you crying if Memehaviour nerf Dead Hard
4 -
To say that you definetly never played high mmr matches.
You can wait in the open, but you can't wait in the jungle gym otherwise they reach the pallet/window.
In otherwords, whatever you do, you are screwed.
0 -
Killers have those nullifying abilities in their powers without needing a perk slot. Survivors require perks to make up for dire weaknesses.
Ghostface can hide his red light on demand and then every loop is a 50/50 guess. Lets pretend killers have no advantages without needing perks while complaining about dead hard.
1 -
so we got to explain again that in a 4v1 game the one as to be stronger than the 4 by essence ?
1 -
That doesn't mean the killer should have all the advantages and survivor has nothing.
0 -
You do realize that the killer is chasing the survivor and not the other way around, don't you? That's why as a survivor you often wait around corners because you can react better that way. It's not the game's intention that you can lose the killer easily. You have those loops to delay the killer not to completely stop them. If a killer had no chance of mindgaming you that would mean they had to break every pallet on the map and then MAYBE they might get a hit. But how do you mindgame shack or other strong structures where survivors can see you most of the time? By using your killer's power if possible.
Because this is a 4vs1 the killer needs to have a significant advantage over the survivors or they have no chance at all. Just look at Sadako. She has nothing in chase. Her stealth won't help with super safe tiles like jungle gyms, shack and whatever else you can find on the map.
2 -
I would also like to add that it functions similar to old on release MoM. against a competent nurse or a good blight, it's a minor inconvenience as you have that mobility to catch up and Incredibly strong. but to other killers like Onyro, trapper, any m1 killer that lacks lethality with their power it's a lot more of a hinderance since they have to loop a lot more. it's ridiculous how much dead hard has stagnated the killer pool.
0 -
The survivor is trying to escape the killer and should have abilities to do so. It seems natural for a survivor to attempt to dodge a hit from a ruthless killer. Otherwise, the character is lifeless.
0 -
That's game balance for you. Dodging a hit by the press of a button is not skillfull, especially when you know the killer has to swing or lose their only chance. Then again it's not even like you straight up dodge the hit in the first place. You just get a little dash and i frames. Dodging would be more like a 360 and i respect people who can spin me way more than people who press E to outplay me.
Let's do some simple math: The killer has found you and chases after you for 8 seconds to get in range. But because you are a god tier looper you made your way to the nearest jungle gym and can vault the window. After a bit of mindgaming and the use of the killers power they get a hit on you after 10 seconds. You instantly use the speed boost to gain distance and make your way to the next strong loop while the killer tries to catch up to you, wasting another 12 seconds. Here you can run the killer another 10 seconds before dropping the pallet. The killer breaks the pallet because it is strong and you make your way to the next structure gaining 6 more seconds. Again you are looping them for 8 more seconds before realizing: The killer did the unthinkable! Mindgaming and outmaneuvering you so they can now hit you. But of course your very fair and counterable perk Dead Hard is here to save the day. Like the absolute god you are you rush forward by the push of a button and get to the pallet, dropping it on the killer. What does that tell you: The killer just wasted 54 seconds of their time and you could easily "outplay" them by pressing E, extending the chase even further. Would have been better if the killer just waited it out so maybe you would reach the pallet and wouldn't have had to use Dead Hard in the first place, right?
3 -
Yes, Ghostface, everyone's favorite S-tier killer because of how strong he is. He's certainly not the worst killer in the game, nope, not at all
3 -
Just because the killer pressed a button doesn't mean you are entitled to a down. I think you forgot both sides should be having "fair chances". Why is it fair for the killer to press M2 for a guaranteed downs but survivor can't press E for a chance to dodge a hit? I could name so many scenarios where survivors are in lose lose situations because of how a killer power is. I'll go ahead and name a few:
Huntress holding her hatchet until survivor is always in a lose lose situation
Pyramid Head hitting during survivor animations
Leatherface bodyblocking vaults and in the basement (inability to rescue a hook)
Nurse blinking in area where it can't be mindgamed and DH is already used
Myers wallhacking with addons and then smacking survivor
Ghostface with no TR, marking, and insta-downing with very little warning
Blight having 4 quick sprints with virtually no cooldown
Tinkerer usually gives a guaranteed hit or down as well all the time
And so many more. You can do a really good job mindgaming a killer, but their power makes up for their inefficient play all the time
Killers are performing way above average.
Edit: Artist - her entire power is all about lose lose for survivor at every loop.
1 -
That's why these killers require you to play smart and in a different way other than the average M1 Trapper. There are exactly 2 scenarios I would agree on. Pyramid Head and Leatherface have little to no counterplay in those situations. Do you see them overperforming? No. Because as I mentioned you need to play different against them. Don't even let them get you in such a situation. I know that's easier said than done but it's possible. Otherwise you wouldn't see as many survivor compilations with those killers getting completely outplayed. You are not supposed to close your eyes, nap for a bit and then when the gens are done escape. That's not how it works. The killer outplays you and you get hit. You outplay the killer and you prevent that hit. The real issue is that with the simple press of a button you can do that as well. Only now the killer doesn't really have the power to prevent that. As mentioned before: If the killer doesn't swing you don't need to use Dead Hard and when they do swing you can still use it. And of course there is our beloved "Press for E for distance", which was never inteded by BHVR, since the idea was to dodge a hit and not prevent the killer from getting into posisition to down you, and is also uncounterable.
0 -
Distance Dead Hards to reach previously unreachable tiles is what makes it really busted, and leaves most killers completely powerless against. Nurse is the only melee killer that doesn't care, and is locked behind an absurdly high skill req to play effectively. If you think it is NECESSARY because of the factors you cited, then it means you are leaning on it too much.
Every other exhaustion perk in the game gives only distance, and have their own limitations. Balanced Landing requires falling, and automatically triggers it, so if you need to fall, it will trigger regardless of you needing it or not. Head On requires 3 seconds inside a locker to work. Lithe triggers on ANY fast vault, regardless of needing it or not. Overcome triggers upon getting hit while healthy. Smash Hit requires a pallet stun. Sprint Burst limits you to walking unless you want to trigger it. But Dead Hard has none of these limitations, it requires you to be injured, which would be an unsafe state, if Dead Hard didn't make it safe. It can be triggered 100% based on demand without any other requisite, and not only it gives distance power like all other exhaustion perks, but it also gives i-frames to cause a potential miss. The other exhaustion perk that both distance and a secondary effect is Adrenaline, and it's a one-time use per trial, and it's not guaranteed you'll get value from it, or even activate it at all.
With that said, I do agree players need to reevaluate their gameplay and what makes them win and lose matches. High MMR survivor players all agree that Dead Hard is the default choice because it gives so many advantages that the other perks don't. High MMR killer players all agree that Dead Hard is problematic the way it is. Check the opinions of most high MMR Fog Whisperers and DbD streamers if you need confirmation.
0 -
Do you really fall for those, and see survivors frequently doing so?
0 -
id be fine with it if survivors had to EARN the dead hard use. but dead hard loads back up after like what ? 60 seconds? so they can keep getting insane value from it.
The moment the devs make it so you need to put effort into being able to use it, the moment survivors will stop using it and just move onto the next META perk that offers more value.
0 -
First off "extending a loop" is too broad and generalized.
You (like everyone and their mother on here) claim one single scenario completely ignoring the other many scenarios in which DH isn't useful and you can bait it out.
In order to use DH properly you HAVE to have the right distance. If you are too close to the pallet it will not, I repeat: IT WILL NOT give you the pallet vaccuum (I.E. prompt to drop) if you are too far you won't even make it to said pallet. So the notion that EVERY single time it is used to extend a loop is BS. That is just 1 example where you can bait DH out, because unless you swing early, it will not work. Period.
1 -
Even if Dead Hard was completely fine in the way it works right now, what is not completely fine is it's pickrate. We all saw the statistics. Those numbers don't lie. Survivors always say they don't want to go against the same 2 killers every match and I understand that. Hell, I don't even like to go to the same map more than twice a day. It's the same for killers. We don't want every single survivor to run Dead Hard. It doesn't completely destroy killers and make matches unwinnable but it makes the game less fun. Waiting until you finally have the mercy to press E and I can hit you isn't fun for me! When I finally get in the position to hit you I should feel the thrill of the kill (or whatever they called it in the live stream, I don't remember) but I can't because I know you still have Dead Hard. If it is fun for you, well, congrats you used your E key in a way that makes my game less fun. Guess I'll return the favor next time and face camp you to death because maybe I have fun watching your charakter die. Or I won't because I know that this isn't fun.
Most killers are completely fine with losing a match. Damn, some of the matches I had the most fun in were losses. Seriously, we don't mind that. It's only normal. But is it normal that you see the same perk pretty much on every survivor in every match no matter their MMR ( even in lower MMR the pick rate is still insane)? At this point making Dead Hard base kit and remove 1 perk slot for survivors wouldn't have that big of an impact on most survivors.
That's why Dead Hard and a bunch of different perks will get an overhaul.
2 -
You are right about pickrate, but the problem is the people who are using that information as evidence/context that the perk is somehow "OP" or unbalanced. That is what I have a problem with, and honestly it's a problem with these forums.
Waiting until you finally have the mercy to press E and I can hit you isn't fun for me!
Things like that ^ do not warrant balancing of a perk. This is why people bring up OTHER things that are also unfun, because if we set down the same standard for everything that is deemed "unfun" this game would not be what it is right now. One could argue that Anti-loop killers have no counter other than pressing W which doesn't work sometimes because of it's dependability on Map RNG, does that mean that every anti-loop killer should get hit with the nerf hammer? I don't think so, and I don't think you guys would be happy with that either.
You are wrong that most killers are fine with losing a match, nobody likes losing. That is a fact.
2 -
Reading through some of these replies really makes me wonder if Stretch Armstrong has come back into popularity.
1 -
It is not that we enjoy the "losing" part itself. No one does. We play this game to have fun. Unless we're literally getting paid for it. Winning a match doesn't mean the match was fun. Would you like to go against afk killers and survivors every match? It's a free win but no fun. I enjoy going against good survivors even when I can't beat them because it challenges me and, at least in my case, they sometimes aknowledge that I tried my best and even help me practise mindgames or my killer's power on a specific structure (rare but it happens). I main Hillbilly and play mostly without addons, using my chainsaw more than necessary because I just happen to like that, which limits my abilities massively so I find myself quite often in a position where I can't really do much with my power. As killers we want to have good chases (whatever that means for each individual player) or some strategy come in clutch. There are always people that feel frustrated after losing (on both sides) and want to win every single match. But as soon as the initial sting wears off a bit even they won't argue that fun is not determined specifically by winning or losing. Part of that frustration problem is the introduction of MMR I think because it made the game go in a more competitive direction.
The main issue with Dead Hard is now that my matches feel even more repetetive than usual and also the before mentioned scenarios. These situations don't occur in 1 in a 100 matches but in most of them actually. Would anyone rewatch their favorite episode of a TV series multiple times every single day? Probably not and for the same reason I think Dead Hard and pretty much the current META in generell is an issue. If it happens to often we first get used to it, then bored, then annoyed and then avoid it, if possible.
0 -
I agree with you ,I wish that there could be way where it can be more balanced. Not just survivors bring every meta Perk to the game x 4 .
0 -
Uhh yes? If you wanna talk about trappers power, open your own discussion lol
1 -
seems like a you problem, those survivors seem to know how to use dead hard and use it well.
maybe you should try not swinging until they use dead hard??
0 -
This is a 5 pages long discussion about Dead Hard. Did you even read more than 1 the first post? That argument has been made and counterpoints were stated.
2 -
It is an indicative of where your MMR stands. If you are constantly seeing these kind of traps working, then you aren't on the MMR where survivors fully learned the potential of Dead Hard. And also, you are the one who mentioned Trapper's power.
0 -
If you honestly think that CoH is useless and never used anymore, you clearly are either not actually playing the game or are not debating in good faith. I'm sorry, but there's no point in further discussion.
0 -
Don't even bother engaging with that poster. They're like a 5k hour Nurse main whose whole posting schtick is embodying the most entitled survivor main in the world. It's an open secret but the mods just let him do his thing
1 -
OMG it's pathetic enough to play DBD without using brain, you still don't bring it even when replying others post...
Just give your brain to the hospital for who really need that, obviously you don't.
0 -
Like I said, open your own discussion if you wanna talk about trappers traps.
0 -
Ya right, that's not a " me problem " that a survivors are trolls and dead needs be nerfed problem . And no there is no waiting out a dead hard . You survivors just need to stop using it. Simple as that, problem solved 😁😊. Ok
0 -
And that the part that sucks, I wish they would just get rid of it. It's too OP
0 -
By this logic, you could say that NOED isn’t problematic because survivors are just too lazy to cleanse 5 totems per match
Dead Hard and NOED are both problematic, there are so many discussions and so many videos detailing why both perks are terribly designed and why both of them are being reworked
you should not, as killer, be forced to wait 2 to 3 seconds to swing just because Dead Hard exists, nor should you, as a survivor, be forced to look for and cleanse 5 totems just because NOED exists
3
