General Discussions
General Discussions
Am i the only one that thinks the hooks are too close?
Sometimes even whilst hitting the great skill checks, you barely reach half way on the wiggling meter. The only times that I've genuinely wiggled off without interruptions (eg, flashlight, stun, bodyblocking) is if the killer is being silly with where they are going, or being OVERLY greedy.
Feel like especially with the new changes that are favouring killer gameplay in chase, there should be some change in regards to wiggling, hooks or the speed a killer walks at whilst carrying a survivor.
Comments
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I play both killer and survivor, the amount of time it takes to wiggle out is definitely reasonable. It allows the killer to have some choice where a survivor is hooked and I don't think the killer should have to worry about a survivor wiggling out after they caught them. A survivor has 2 hook states, so essentially making it easier to wiggle out wouldn't make much sense from a balance stand point.
You also have to remember that once someone is sacrificed, the hook disappears. If you make it so a killer can't reach another hook if you run to the destroyed hook, you'll get many killers who will just slug to death and have you bleed out. Not fun.
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I am saying this with the consideration of the recent changes we will be testing in the PTB - that favour the killer considerably in chase, stun duration reduction, pallet/wall breaking quicker, bloodlust quicker. The same way that a game isn't over just because the exit gates have been powered, the game shouldnt be over just because you got downed.
A killer can comfortably walk between three hooks without the survivor being able to wiggle off. It doesn't matter if one of the hooks in that area is broken because the killer can walk to another without breaking a sweat.
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Wiggling isn't supposed to get you off the hook if the killer makes a straight run for the hook. If it did, playing killer would be virtually impossible.
It's meant to:
A. Force the killer to hook you instead of just carry you around and hold you hostage.
B. Allow a coordinated team to work together to potentially prevent a hook, via perks and good teamwork.
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The thing is, the game isn't just over because you got downed. You have 2 hook states to spare, so it's not like you get killed on your first hook. Every survivor has 2 hook states, so if the killer is playing more relaxed and fair, he has a lot of hook states to chew through if they even want to get a kill.
Don't forget that they'll have to potentially change other perks that affect survivor wiggle speed and sabo builds if they were to change the wiggle time. Boil Over, Breakout, Saboteur, and sabo tool boxes would probably need nerfs/number changes to account for a base kit change to wiggle.
I'm not sure how much killer you play, but sometimes you down a survivor and pick them up to see one hook you can definitely reach and maybe a hook you could barely reach. There are some areas on the maps where you can reach 3 hooks easily, but a lot of times it's mostly just two hooks that are your options. Especially if you run a scourge hook, it becomes difficult to not take the first hook you see, which shouldn't be the trade off. The killer has to choose to spend more time carrying a survivor or hook quickly to get into next chase.
There are certain maps that have really bad hook spawns. This is moreso a map problem than the wiggle speed problem, but changing the wiggle speed would definitely not help this situation.
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'' the game shouldnt be over just because you got downed.''
I guess you've never played a killer. Time is very very important for a killer. Chasing and dropping average 45 second.Can't hang on the hook 1 minute. ??? Losing 1 minute = potantial to lose 3 gen = L O S E
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Or you could run breakdown, y'know, that perk that everyone knows exists, lol
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No.
If a killer downs a survivor, they should be able to easily hook that survivor unless the rest of the team interferes. If it became harder to hook survivors by default, slugging would just increase and then you'll complain about how you get left on the ground and die in 4 minutes.
If you want to wiggle off, you have perk options to help: Boil Over, Flip Flop, and Power Struggle. Or hope your teammates bodyblock the killer or sabo hooks.
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Hey, when the survivor breakdowns your only scourge hook on one side of the map, its a little sad. Good thing breakdown is only used by adept Jeffs and some meme team sabo no mither squads.
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You are not supposed to wiggle out. Wiggling should only prevent the Killer from choosing any hook they like. If wiggling would not exist, you would probably end up in the Basement or on any Scourge Hook all the time.
However, I agree that Hooks are too close. Often enough Hooks are close enough that the Killer can camp (or, like Killers like to say: "patrol") both Hooks. And this should not be the case, the Killer already has a lot of pressure with two people on the Hook, no reason to make it easy to camp (sorry: "patrol") both Hooks.
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Yeah, that's true I guess, but yeah, like you said, how often does that happen? Lol
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You're not the only one to think any given thing, so no. You're not the only one that thinks that.
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What else is a killer supposed to do? You're supposed to find and kill survivors, so obviously you're going to be where the survivors are going to go, which includes gens and hooks.
You don't see survivors ignoring gens because they dont want to "win to much".
This is why camping is an entirely legit tactic, only "facecamping" has any issues.
Obviously hooks shouldn't be SO close that this is made so incredibly easy, but if the option is there, the killer has no reason not to take advantage of it.
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You mean "facepatroling".
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Is this like "gen-dead-harding" or "flashlight-opening-the-gate"???
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Survivors still have some control where they get downed. The killer is able to down and hook 2 survivors near each other, then the survivor made a misplay.
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So you want me to chase you for 2 minutes, finally catch you, and then you just wiggle out... just because you think wiggling should be buffed? You're not MEANT to be able to just wiggle out for free. The whole point is you wiggle out with teammate help, or because the killer downed you in a deadzone where they already destroyed the hook earlier.
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I mean, two Survivors being downed is already a misplay regardless where they are hooked. But two Survivors hooked next to each other with the Killer "patroling" between them is not a favorable situation for the Killer, it is basically a win. The other two can basically just run to the Killer and let them down them, because there is not really a point in playing anymore.
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That is literally on purpose. Wiggling is literally never ever meant to be a reliable way to get off, UNLESS bodyblocking/well-timed sabotages/etc happen. You went down, why should you get rewarded for that? The entire point of wiggling is exclusively to (1) prevent taking the game hostage bleed out pauses while carried), and (2) prevent them from taking you across the entire map to the basement. Punishing the killer for getting a down is stupid.
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If anything some maps needs better hook spawns, not worse.
As a general rule I don't think a survivor should ever be able to wiggle off before reaching hook without it being a result of some perk or another survivor intervening with body blocks or sabos. For how much time you lose on downing a survivor it is extremely punishing to lose out on a hook from a down and shouldn't be taken lightly.
They're generally speaking pretty good right now.
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The killer is playing smart, because of the situation the survivors put themselves into. The killer at no point should be forced to let you unhook your teammates just because they messed up and gave him a huge advantage.
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Nah, even with just one survivor hooked, chances are they simply get a hook trade.
With two hooked survivors, however close, the chances of duping a rescue on one to get the other is fairly high, and you'll probably get one hook trade and one full rescue. The killer gets three hook scores out of it but you'll end up in a position more favourable for the survivors going forward, if you're then able to escape the killer after that. If they continue to camp the one remaining hooked survivor you can all heal up.
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You have maps like rcpd, Halloween, meat plant, and midwitch that have really terrible hook spawns. So why are you complaining?
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naah this how hooks should spawn
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I probably can count on my hands the number of meme sabo squads I've gotten and I only remember a couple times where breakout inconvenienced me out of my scourge hook.
I do remember I got incredible breakdown value with a nurse that turned the game around, but getting value out of that perk is very difficult.
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Yeah... I hope it's the secret 40th perk getting buffed, lol
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I think you read my title and just decided to respond to that rather than my post
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A killer shouldn't be able to walk back and forth between hooks without a penalty.
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A killer can't just walk back and forth between hooks if a survivor is actively wiggling. They will 100% lose that survivor. With some perks like Agitation and Iron Grasp it's possible to do a lap, but that's dedicating 2 perks to do something not extremely useful most of the time.
I can tell you don't actually play killer, because if you had you would already know this.
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You are another user that read the title and decided to knee-jerk respond than to read my post.
My issue is that the hooks are so close, that a killer can walk between them with ease without the survivor wiggling off.
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4 maps out of how many?
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Except I've been witnessing, a killer walking to a hook, deciding not that one and choosing to hook the survivor on a different one.
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Close together you say? (Not my photo, someone I've played with on Steam.)
I've actually ran into a few Boil Over players lately who got one over on me, and have had fun with Power Struggle myself. In normal circumstances (not above) I think it's fine.
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100% NO, you've lost chase, you should be hooked, wiggling out should only happen with extreme coordination or many perks.
Hell survivors got wiggling buffs for absolutely no reason anyway, it's extremely unhealthy for the game as is.
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Oh also forgot to add all of the badham maps as well. So like most of all of them have pretty bad hook spawns. If anything hooks should have better placement. So I didn't get why your crying about of hooks.
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You have this weird idea that it’s not designed that way on purpose. It’s almost like that’s literally what bodyblocking/well-timed sabotages/etc are for. You are not meant to wiggle off almost ever. That is on purpose. You went down. Why should the killer be punished for you going down? Why should you be rewarded for going down?
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BETTER? when a killer can safely hook 3 survivors in one area of the map? LOL
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I'm not saying it should be a 50/50. Im just saying that they shouldnt be so close that a killer can just walk to one hook, decide not that one and walk to another and still safely hook the survivor.
Especially in light of the buffs for killers when it comes to chase.
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Considering that they've buffed chase for killers very favourably, and the fact that stun duration is shorter with DS.
There needs to be some compensation which doesn't affect a killer performing normal gameplay, but penalises a killer for severe greed.
Also you mean wiggling buffs, you mean the 1s quicker that a survivor can wiggle off? those 'buffs'? lmfao
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Usually no but these days yes, however i'm pretty sure it's a bug. I did the "sabo 3 hooks while in the killer's terrior radius" earlier, I saboed 3 hooks next to eachother (on coldwin, they were literally in a neat little triangle, insidious Bubba would have loved it), died in the middle of them and the killer didn't have any problem bringing me to an other hook, like i wasn't even close to getting out. Again tho, it's definitely due to a bug, i don't usually feel like they're too close.
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If the entire team of survivors is going down in one area, that's a misplay on the survivor team. Survivors have some control over where they get down.
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No.
The issue is that hooks are inconsistent.
There are still spots on some maps where a single sabo can make a part of the map completely unhookable (RPD, GoD, Eyrie, Gideon, Midwich, Haddonfield, Badham). There are also some situations where you get a lot of hooks close together.
Survivors aren't supposed to be wriggling off constantly without help, because not only is that very punishing for killers trying to pip (you get punished harshly for survivors that drop), not only is that maddeningly frustrating for killers because you can lose a game very fast after an escape, but it's going to encourage even more slugging.
If the 'game is over' because you got downed once, either you need to stop suiciding on the hook or your teammates need to remove their underpants from their heads.
And now we enter the goalpost shifting portion of the discussion, I see :|.
Why not?
Again - do you like being slugged? Because Knockout is getting a silly buff in the next patch, so it's not like it'd be hard to bleed folks out, and that's less BP for all involved.
If two survivors get downed, that's catastrophic for the survivor side which is why it's a situation you need to avoid. That said, it's not unrecoverable, but you'll likely need to do a trade on one hook.
If two people get hooked in the basement, it's GG. Don't let this happen.
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No. No that they are more consistent, in that you won't have 4 hooks sitting within spitting distance on one side of the map and one area being a desert.
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That's countered pretty easily though. If you're going to go down run in a direction away from the Killer preferably into an area as remote as possible. If the Killer has two people downed, unhook the first as soon as you see the Killer pick up the second. The aura reading makes that pretty easy.
If the Killer gets two people on hooks close to each other it's either the Killer just outplayed the survivors or the survivors outplayed themselves by either being too cocky, misreading their situation or the survivors not downed not taking advantage of the safe unhook time window.
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I just leave this here.
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Ah, game design
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I don't remember when I wiggled out last time playing in solo Q. Maybe in SWF it's more frequent when your buddies body-block the killer. But in solo wiggling is almost a useless game mechanic.
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