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A case for Kindred being basekit
To extinguish any us vs them arguments I want to preface this post a bit. For the killers who have a knee jerk reaction of "oh hell no" hear me out. Killers and soloq have the same root problem that makes the game Imbalanced, swf.
The devs essentially said that they're not touching swf. So the only way to iron out swf imbalance is to try and bring soloq up to swfs level. Kindred can help with that. Obviously this would be a massive buff to survivor so just like with BT becoming basekit it has to come with an equivalent buff to killers side to compensate.
I have no Idea what that would look like to be honest, but i dont think theres any reason not to test it. What are some of your ideas? The next patch makes me think we could have a similar one addressing this exact thing. Maybe with another batch of perks being reworked. I'm interested in hearing opinions.
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It is one of the things I think should just be basekit by default (perhaps without the killer aura reading) as well as I agree that BHVR shouldn't artificially 'nerf' SWFs, but also that buffing solo Q by giving them more information that SWFs can have is a good step towards bringing them closer together as experiences.
Whilst I don't think all the information SWF can give to each other should be somehow given to solo queues, being on hook in particular is one of the biggest 'differences' between solo q and SWFs, as nobody knows if anyone's going for the save, so they can find themselves in awkward situations where they're questioning if they should go save or let go of the gen. Then they'll find that all 3 of them are there and no one's on gens, or they think someone else is going but actually their hooked friend is now second phasing.
I run it all the time if I'm going to solo Q regardless but I think in general a healthy step for Solo Q would be adding some form of kindred by default.
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Yes basically my reasoning to a T, but theres a likelihood that itll throw the game off balance so killers will need something to compensate for it. Like how they did the gen speeds, brutal strength, and STBFL this upcoming patch. So I think that if it comes in killer will need something similar to that. What it is i have no idea. There is a chance that it wont effect the balance at all, but it needs testing in a ptb.
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It should definitely be basekit IMO. It both helps bridge the power gap between solos and SWF and it balances camping against solos.
Kindred gives survivors the requisite information to make decisions based on the situation. It's so beyond stupid that a killer can make an awful play and turn it into a 4k because survivors didn't have information. A killer shouldn't be able to camp for the sake of camping and benefit just because nobody happened to bring a perk. If a killer camps intelligently, then survivors still have to be smart about it even if they have the information.
The design of Kindred itself is bad. It immediately becomes a redundant perk slot if the survivor on hook has it and other players also have it. Then those other players are down a functional perk for the entirety of their hook states. There's no such thing as redundant Adrenaline, or Sprint Burst, etc. You can't have multiple Kindreds for added effect. It does one thing for everyone when that player is on the hook or one effect for one player otherwise. It's a badly designed band aid over an outdated mechanic.
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While I do agree in principal it's extremely hard to do. Everyone loves saying "buff solo to swf and then bring killers up!!" But what exactly is this mysterious buff to killers?
Even with just 10 seconds added to gens we see doomposting about forever plague/legion so we can't touch gen timers. Buffing chase means more oppressive/unfun moments. I don't see what knob we can possibly tweak to universally bring all killers up if we turn solos into swfs in terms of info provided.
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This may be a hot take, I don't know - but I don't think killers need a compensated buff if they give kindred basekit (again, potentially without the aura reading, potentially with).
Whilst, sure, this information would make solo q stronger when a survivor is hooked in particular, it's only an element of what makes SWFs strong compared to Solo Qs. They still will not have the slew of information that a SWF team gets in general throughout the match, such as who is being chased (assuming it's not the obsession), who is almost finishing a gen, which gen is almost finished, where they're leading the killer too, where that stealthed GhostFace currently is, etc.
As a killer player, I don't think making this change would suddenly cause me to start losing way more games than I usually would have in general. That said, they've already given killers a fairly decent buff with increased gen speeds and slightly quicker catch up mechanics and I'd argue these things already make solo Q somewhat harder.
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Yeah thats why i made this post to try to start those conversations. Shake the tree and see what falls out.
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IMO basekit kindred would probably do a better job of helping survivors against camping than basekit BT, especially for solos.
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The buff I think you're looking over is that with kindred basekit they'll get an idea of how to play more efficiently. Which gens have been worked on and for how long. Say its late game and you're wondering where your team is so you can slam that last gen. Kindred also gives you that option. There is a possibility it doesnt effect balance but my money is on that it will. If it does killers will need something to compensate.
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Yes please! Make the survivor aura reading base kit and then turn Kindred into something else. Maybe like:
See the aura of the killer 10m away from any downed or hook survivor (including yourself). Or rework the perk completely ^^
As for compensation for the killer I don't think its need.... BUT I would really appreciate it if BBQ kept the BP bonus 😭
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Survivor aura reading -> yes.
Killer aura reading -> hell no.
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I have seen idea with it to make it anticamp perk. You basically can see killer aura nearby hooked survivor and it would make hook timer go slower if killer is nearby.
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That’s a nice idea!
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BBQ as basekit for killer problem solved
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Kindred is a huge pain in the bottom for campers. If devs ever dare to add it as basekit, the screams and wails of campers will be heard on the Moon.
Personally, I'm all into giving survivors Kindred, BT and infinite DS as basekit. Definetely won't affect me as a killer. I'm suffering from Spinechill+Resilience, Iron Will, strong medkits and other such things.
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This is the best Idea I've heard so far. It will also help with camping.
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I’d be fine with basekit Kindred for survivors, but then give killers basekit Corrupt Intervention and aura reading for every hook as compenstation
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I would if bee OK with kindred base okay but bt kinda over kill granted it's Allright
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It should show Survivors and what they are doing, but not the Killer.
Kindred still needs a reason to exist after all.
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@edgarpoop i agree your post. I think Bond would be better for base-kit. blindness status effect is one of status effects that affects soloq, but has no effect on voice chat swfs. Knock out is another perk that only works vs SWF but harms solo.
base-kit bond would help soloq do better teamplay, they'd be more efficient at healing, more efficient at doing generators and more efficient at staying away from teammates doing generators(if they're playing to win and not sandbag) during the chase.
the blindness status effect should be reworked to only work on the floor and unlike current knock out, the knock out should literally knock you out. the survivor affected by knock out/blindness will be knocked out and unable to see anyone around them. Just black screen with stars similar to current flashlights effects that happen for killer. they'll also be unable to crawl or move.
main concern with kindred is that kindred gives killer aura reading. I don't think killer would like their aura to be read every time they hook a survivor. I don't think they'll do that though.
current plans are to add icons for soloq survivor. its better than nothing but at least its progress in correct direction for bridging soloq and voice chat swf.
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Thing is, Kindred without killer aura punish fair play killer more than camper. As there will be 1 survivor run to the hook just to see killer is camping, then return to his Gen. That would cost half a Gen time, and thats huge.
However, the Aura from basekit Kindred should not be affected by Open Hand.
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A lot of people thought Corrupt Intervention should be basekit, but instead it got massively nerfed.
I'm not saying Kindred should be massively nerfed, but basekit Borrowed Time seems like PLENTY at the moment.
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I like the earlier suggestion, of it not showing the killers aura if basekit. So the perk still remains handy if people choose to use it in case of camping. As a solo player who brings kindred into every match, it won't stop more than one survivor going for the unhook all the time but it'll be massively helpful.
Plenty of times when someone with kindred is hooked, I'll wait to see if the others will go and when no one does I'll just go and all of a sudden the other two will run for it. Like it's a race. I see it when I'm the one hooked too. Everyone wants to get their gen points but they also want the unhook points. So while basekit would definitely be a solo queue buff, it won't always work out for a team unless they want to play as a team.
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This is kind of a catch-all reply to everyone with killer aura reading concerns.
It's not an issue at 8 meter if the killer is camping in a good spot at a good time. It forces the survivors to make the choice: send 1 for a trade, send 2 for the unhook, or leave them and slam gens.
That's the final skill curve on survivor and it separates average/good survivors from great ones. Assessing the gen layout/map, hook stages, and basing your aggressiveness off of it is all part of the survivor skill cap.
It's genuinely not an issue for the killer if you're being smart about it. Yes, I'm camping inside of this 3 gen. What are you going to do about it? If a killer is camping in a dumb spot, survivors should be able to see it and punish it.
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I’m all for basekit kindred but without the killer aura.
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Why? it only punishes campers
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Kindred should be basekit.
Idk why people say it shouldn't show killer's aura, it literally only punishes the killer if they're camping. If you want to camp freely use insidious since it hides your aura.
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I don’t think insidious hides the killers aura at least from what i’ve read.
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Gonna upset people with this comment lol. I say, as a killer main / soloQ survivor, make Kindred basekit - the entire effect. And HEAVY penalties to hard camping and hard tunnelling. Like, I reckon the killer should lose ALOT of BP & points for doing these activities from the start, and the penalty drops the longer the match goes / as gens get completed.
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It does
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I believe it does, but it's kinda obvious when you see the killer walk 2 steps, stop, then suddenly disappear a few seconds later lol
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While I don't think kindred being basekit is a bad idea, it won't help.
1: if solo gets buffed to swf lvl. There will be a mass exodus of killers. The game is frustrating enough. Just wanted to throw that out there.
2: perks are not the solution to solo. I run kindred everytime I solo and randoms still refuse to do gens. Hoping the killer will leave. You can give them more tools than they know what to do with. It won't change a thing if they don't use them. There is nothing bhvr can do to help randoms git gud. That can only be accomplished by playing the game and learning from your mistakes.
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Add a 5 second or 10 second delay.
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Fairly certain it's nowhere near that long. At t3, insidious is like 3 or 2 seconds of standing still, iirc. Not on game atm, so going off memory, I could be wrong.
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Its not buff survivor and thats it. This is why I prefaced the post. It will require testing and balancing. Bringing solo up to swfs level and balancing for it is the only way this game gets balanced.
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i am more concerned about the killer aura being read in loops around a hooked survivor. its kinda weird for the killer to get "punished" for hooking the survivor. your suppose to empower the survivor to make smart decisions, not punish the killer for hooking through aura reading.
the weird thing about information in video games is that even when your given information, players might not use it properly. survivors can misplay the situation despite having information about a particular event. For example, suppose a fellow teammate survivor is getting chased by the killer and you have a flashlight, you might stay on the generator despite having the information that a teammate is nearby and could potentially go down. they end up going down and your not in position to go for a flashlight save because you didn't think they would go down. so despite having information on the event, you end up making the wrong play.
all that goes to show is that there is certain skill-cap to using information correctly. I would describe it as game-sense. I would class killer camping as game sense as well. Through survivor experience, you will end up figuring when the killer is camping without the need for information. for stuff related to killer, you should need to use game-sense to make correct play.
You can argue that you can use game-sense to figure out how your team is playing, but your on same team as survivor, there isn't suppose to be guessing about your teammates. your suppose to be making reads on the killer, not your teammates. that's just my 2 cent on it.
Personally, I don't think solo is that much weaker than SWF, but I think that solo does everything slower. As a result, solo on average loses more often because of its inefficiency. in solo, to me, it always feels like you have to do twice the chases to win, where as doing like 3 minute in like swf is probably like 5 gen chase.
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