Whats even the point in giving feedback after this obvious ignorance on given feedback?
The feedback given on PTB-Issues was massive. And yet the only things BHVR came up with were basically another round of nerfs? Lets look into some issues given feedback an a high amount of threads, posts and comments on all platforms:
The prestige cost was deemed unnecessary by everyone in this community and just contradicted the "grind reduction". BHVR: Reduced it. -> Demand/arguments ignored.
Transitioning was deemed "not thought through til the end" as the amount of items and offerings were an indicator on how much people invested in each character too. BHVR: They even cut down any p3 full perk character into a p3 lvl 1 character, levelwise. Removing the bonus. -> Some issues/arguments ignored and made worse.
Prestige reward was deemed not like a bragging right and ugly. BHVR: Redesigned it. -> Most demanded issue/arguments ignored.
BT-Basekit: Was deemed not good enough as BT as perk is still necessary. BHVR: silence. -> Issue ignored completely.
Tunneling: Revert of DS-Stuntime was demanded. BHVR: silence. -> Issue/arguments ignored.
Camping: With increase of gen times and more slowdowns viable, was it deemed to be buffed. BHVR: Just changed the obvious OP perk Overcharge. -> Issue/arguments ignored.
Perk-Trashing: Several perks esp. on survivor side were unnecessarily trashed just for the sake of getting them out of the meta. BHVR: Nerfed several perks even more. -> Issues/arguments ignored.
As well as some other demands like Thana being reverted as it gives rise to new "forever" killers, which was ignored. HOW is it possible to come up with such poor changes after this massive amount of feedback given by the community? And dont tell me "we had not enough time". Most things shouldnt have even been done in the first place and could have been easily reverted or changed by some tweaks. WHY should anyone ever give you feedback again if you come to such unreasonable changes and ignore the (easy-to-fix) demands?
Comments
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This is an amazingly valid point that deserves an answer from a mod.
Why did killer-players and survivor-players who spent their time playing PTB to give feedback get completely ignored? Also, why was the PTB feedback forum, and all the players who spent time giving feedback, completely ignored?
It seems kind of like a slap in the face to all the players who spent time giving BHVR feedback and taking their time to play PTB.
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I actually agree with most of the changes they did in the July update. Other than maybe Overcharge should start at normal 100% speed instead of being worse than having no perk at 75% the rest is fine.
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They didn't ignore the requests. They addressed several of them:
Overcharge - Was being complained about. They nerfed its values to make it much less powerful even when combined with Call of Brine.
Dead Hard - Nerfed further after survivors learned how to abuse it with the new endurance stacking problems.
Off The Record - Was due for a significant nerf, which they delivered, giving it the DStrike treatment, removing it as an end game option, just as people asked for. Fixed the endurance stacking issue as well.
Endurance - Addressed the stacking problem by making it not work while under deep wounds.
So yes, they did listen to the community. Just because they didn't do everything we wanted doesn't mean they ignored us. They did what they felt were reasonable changes, even if we don't all necessarily agree with that sentiment. Even the things you mentioned were things they did address, just not exactly the way some folks felt they should have.
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The prestige cost was deemed unnecessary by everyone in this community and just contradicted the "grind reduction". BHVR: Reduced it. -> Demand/arguments ignored.
Transitioning was deemed "not thought through til the end" as the amount of items and offerings were an indicator on how much people invested in each character too. BHVR: They even cut down any p3 full perk character into a p3 lvl 1 character, levelwise. Removing the bonus. -> Some issues/arguments ignored and made worse.
Prestige reward was deemed not like a bragging right and ugly. BHVR: Redesigned it. -> Most demanded issue/arguments ignored.
These are the three things that bother me the most.
These changes affect the most dedicated players to the game, and they all affect them negatively.
It's like if a shop didn't value their most loyal customers. It doesn't make sense, it's detrimental for the company's reputation and it drives people away from you.
Perks and stuff like that can be tweaked further down the line, but it's a lot harder to backtrack on the first points.
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Idk where you get your info but they hit all my points. You just don't have the charisma my dude haha.
The update is great as is and there will be more to come.
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You're cherry picking the complaints that didn't get addressed, though- and in some cases acting as though their response was somehow ignoring the problem when you just don't like their solution, like the P3 rewards.
A lot of people were concerned about Overcharge, so that was listening to feedback. People also raised concerns about how the Spine Chill nerf would adversely affect the hard of hearing, and BHVR responded to that before the PTB even went online, so they clearly listened to feedback there.
People talked about how getting addons might get harder with the new prestige, so BHVR announced two separate BP increases and also said they're looking at adjusting node rarities in a future update. That's listening to feedback.
Concerns were raised about the potential of an "Endurance meta" where people stack Endurance perks and chain them one after the other, and so BHVR made Endurance not activate if you already have Deep Wound. That's listening to feedback.
Obviously BHVR are not above criticism, but to say that they aren't listening to feedback at all just because some of the stuff you consider a bigger deal wasn't addressed is really bad faith, dude. There's stuff I wanted to see adjusted that didn't make it into the July dev update either, but I'm not gonna say that my feedback was therefore pointless, and I definitely wouldn't say that everyone's feedback is pointless because of it.
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They responded to a ton of feedback this PTB. Yeah, there were a few weird unsolicited changes like Botany and capping the carryover at P9, and some unaddressed stuff like Calm Spirit or the relative weakness of 5s BT, but you really cannot accuse them of blindness here. People hated the P3 filter? Endurance meta? Dead Hard still being able to be used to reach pallets and to guaranteed no-sell windup powers? The 50k prestige tax? (Yes, them reducing it is still listening to feedback. They're not obligated to do exactly what the community says. I don't like it in this case, but I assume they have some reason they're bent on it.) OTR having the same endgame problem as DS? Overcharge being the new dominant regression perk? Not to mention they responded to the BBQ/WGLF concerns by increasing the base amount of bloodpoints you can earn per match and raising the BP cap for good measure, and they announced future plans to deal with the issue presented by early bloodweb lack of quality.
Sure, not everyone got what they wanted, but that's never possible in the first place. They were exceptionally responsive this go-around.
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Not a mod but I can answer this one...first of all, we do not just take feedback from the forums, we also have a lot of other platforms where we take feedback. This feedback is also discussed intently - I took part in the long meetings presenting this feedback, as that's my job.
When we go through the feedback from the PTB we're also very aware that there's a small number of people playing the actual PTB and please bare in mind that there's also no matchmaking on the PTB so all skill levels are together, which can sometimes skew peoples perceptions of things. So whilst we do clearly listen to feedback - the changes that we made from the PTB emphasises that point nicely....not all feedback can or will be implemented, as our Designers have to make the decision about what is best for the game overall.
Prestige icon feedback - we were very clear initially that this was not going to be something cosmetic, most people correctly figured out it would be something to do with the portraits based from that. The proposed portrait wasn't generally received positively so changes were made to it. We were always clear that this wasn't going to be a Legacy 2.0 outfit, nor was that ever the intention.
DS stun timer - the arguments have not been ignored, we've had some pretty lengthy discussions about them internally. This update was always going to be controversial due to the perks that we were changing, so we expected all of this. The fact that DS is used and the reasons why it was used were discussed. And we made the decision to go Live with the stun timer as it is, with the view that these things we can change in future if we find it's necessary.
We want to shake up the perks that people play with, keeping them the same strength would not accomplish that.
It's completely disingenuous to say we don't listen to feedback, when we clearly do - when we clearly have made changes based on that feedback. Of course we cannot possibly please everyone with the changes we make, as pretty much everyone has a differing of opinion. But I think we've shown time and time again that we do listen to feedback and it's not just from one place either.
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Yes most of us got that its not gonna be an outfit nor charm but still thought that the mentioned "prestige icon" was about the one in the post game chat not a portrait. Like some tweaks to it that would distinguish people who prestiged before and those who didn't. With this "legacy" only u know u went beyond because u wanted to, wasted time and bp to be in the end the same as everyone else even tho they didn't lose anything like we did.... and this is our reward? I'm just disappointed. Before we had at least the bloody cosmetics to show that we did it while now everyone gets it and there is no compensation for that except maybe the few more levels we get which is gonna be meaningless in few weeks anyway. One little thing on the icon that is different from the non-prestiged people would just been enough... portraits are fine but no one will ever see that so whats the point.
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They literally buffed BT and gave base BT+ a speed boost. They gutted meta perks on both sides. Tinkerer is dead. Ruin is dead. Pop is dead. Come on.
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I'm sure others have gone over it but they responded to feedback on the following topics, all of which arose out of feedback on this forum:
* BP cost for prestige (just because they reduced it rather than remove it does not mean they did not respond to the feedback)
* Forced prestige impact on access to rare addons
* Endurance stacking concerns
* OTR replacing DS as a free escape mechanism during endgame
* Healing speed concerns
* Dead Hard utilization concerns
* Iron Will nerf impacting survivors unevenly
* Spine Chill nerf impacting HoH players who use the perk for accessibility
* Perk charm palette
* Legacy prestige portrait effect
* Prestige catch-up math adjustments
That's a huge amount of things! Willfully ignoring all of them to present just the parts of it they did not get to is outrageously bad faith.
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this
and also many people (such as myself) thought that maybe it would change the prestige counter so that people in the after-game lobby could see that i got to p3 before the changes.
Now i have a personal, although less ######### than before, reward that nobody will see unless I turn into s streamer/youtuber + that will look absolutely ugly as soon as a new character releases that won't have that effect.
also again, this looks like a classic "if we aren't mentioning it that doesn't mean we didn't acknowledge it"-moment
for example DS stun timer
just literally mention it, mention that you thought about it but that you decided against it for now but will adjust it if need be in the future. the community cares about this stuff. just saying that it has been seen, has been thought about, has been decided against is better than radio silence. Community members that i have seen feel frustrated as issues have been "ignored". You didn't ignore them though but just decide to be silent for a reason I don't know. To people not privy to the meetings at BHVR, which is almost all of the playerbase, it looks like either you are fine with the changes completely or that you have ignored the feedback.
Please just mention it, talk about it, just less silence. Silence is the main thing that makes this frustrating.
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Regarding these changes, can you please ask why the nerf to Calm Spirit? Everybody that has talked about it has pointed out how the "buff" is more of a nerf and was quite sad to see that nobody on the dev team bothered to comment on it. So I am really curious why nothing was done to remedy that. Why should I be punished for using a perk, just because I don't want to disturb crows?
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I agree with all this except the portrait. People guessed it would be an ICON (which was the word that was used by BHVR) and not something done to the character portrait. It was also ASSUMED (so thats on our end but terribly communicated on BHVR's part) that it would be something that would be shown off. "Bragging right" was said a few times.
End of day, I really don't care who knows I P3'd what character and don't feel its something I'd literally brag about, but speaking for why the majority of the people are disappointed is because an icon was what people thought it was going to be. I didn't see anyone "correctly" guess it would be an effect added to character portraits that only we could see. Everyone thought it was going to be an icon displayed in lobbies. NOBODY can see our character portraits so nobody really assumed thats what the reward would involve.
People aren't disappointed because they thought it wasn't legacy 2.0. You made that very clear it wasn't going to be and people adjusted their expectations accordingly. So it not being legacy 2.0 isn't why people hated the reward, and not an acceptable scapegoat, and why most people still hated it even though it looks better.
Poor communication and execution. Thank you for giving the option to turn it off though, I'll look at them for maybe a day before the asymmetry these are going to cause starts to hurt my brain XD
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To be fair, they did make this information available. They did two live streams talking about the changes, post about the streams on twitter and insta so you can watch live, or catch the vods later. They also post links to the written updates on their socials.
On top of that, tons of DBD content creators made videos based on both. They made recap videos discussing everything discussed after each stream BHVR does, and they literally just make videos of them reading the updates (kinda lazy content but hey, people watch, me included LOL).
So you don't have to be an avid DBD forumer (is forumer a word? LOL) but you do have to follow DBD news somewhere on some of the platforms they have accounts or you will miss stuff like this. This forum, Twitter, Instagram, Twitch, and youtube (but mostly 3rd parties make this content) are all loaded with DBD stuff.
EDIT: so I see that you said you do follow them on socials, I assumed you didn't initially when responding. But I follow them on twitter and insta and recall seeing updates for links to dev updates, and info on upcoming streams as they come. I have notifications turned on for DBD's twitter so that helps I guess, but they do put the info out there as much as possible.
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I mean, the fact that even some Fog Whisperers were weirded out by the fact that the reward was not visible by other tells you pretty much everything you need to know about how well communicated and clear the P3 reward was.
Think about it. Seriously.
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I agree with everything besides the Legacy P3 reward. We are not saying that it should have been a cosmetic outfit or charm - you're essentially dodging the issue.
The issue everyone was talking about was the fact that the reward was personal and therefore pointless. Livestreams from devs promised an "icon" and promised "bragging rights". With a personal reward, who are we supposed to brag to? Ourselves? It doesn't make sense.
All you have to do is make some tiny thing that can be seen in the post-game lobby to distinguish this legacy achievement and the obscene amount of sacrifice we went through to get it. The community (myself included) have even offered many very easy ways to do this, but they were essentially ignored.
People didn't like the effct itself, yes, but that was only half of the issue. The main issue was the reward itself, not its presentation.
The fixing of its presentation is very much appreciated by all of us - it looks 100x better.
However, it would be nice if the issue of providing something small for bragging rights could be addressed too. We absolutely don't need this with next week's update since things like this take time - we understand that. I'm sure everyone would be content with knowing it could come down the line.
I'll make a post about this myself anyway, but I figured I'd post it here too. For some of us, this is quite a big deal. Think of us what you want, but that's just the truth.
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Fans: "We want this changed into that!"
BHVR: "Okay, we made that into this."
Fans: "No not like that. Like THIS."
BHVR: "But this is okay. If we made it like that then this would happen!"
*shows infographic as evidence*
Fans: "That is not good enough for this thing that I only dislike!"
BHVR: "Then turn that into this so you could avoid it. That mechanic is needed to make this game that special asymetrical horror experience."
Fans: "..."
"this game is dying"
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The tweets and insta stories weren't straight up things like "the reward isn't or is going to be this or that" but leading to things like the streams or dev updates where they did. The second stream I know for sure is where they advertised the reward being an icon for 'bragging rights' so specifics, yeah you kind of have to dig or spend time skimming a vod.
Another reason I feel they shouldnt have been so secretive about what the reward would be. They could have tweeted "prestige 3 before the live update and get this lame character portrait animation only you can see" LOL
OK, I don't think they would have worded it quite like that but still. Even though the info for it not being a cosmetic was put out there, they were needlessly vague to get us to play more. They know we wouldn't have grinded for what we did get.
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they listen to the feedback, but they choose to ignore survivor mains. Given that the next patch is a huge killer buff…
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Maybe because they're balancing for both sides and not just one? Lol and since one side is performing below what is intended, it's not hard to understand that side is getting more buffs than the other. They also completely gutted a lot of killer perks, just like survivors. Survivors also got a few buffs as well that just get ignored to fit ones own narrative.
Overall this patch is a healthy change for the game on both sides, and shows that they are actually listening.
Does it solve every single issue? No. But there's a limited amount of stuff they can roll out at one time. It's definitely in a step in the right direction though as it's a non-stop continuous effort to improve and balance live pvp games.
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the patch nukes meta on both sides
buffs perks for both sides
gives basekit changes for both sides
survivor mains:- we're ignored :(
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My complaint has been heard for most, I don't care camping because I won't do it anyway and I won't get camped much.
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So agree ! The "Bragging right" is missing T_T
Icon was never a nama for a portrait before.
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Lol…survivors got nuked, killers got fly swatted. The meta perks for killers will still be usable while survivors won’t be. In addition, base game changes highly benefit killers, a 5 second mini BT is the only thing survivors got which is almost nothing. But yeah, both sides got nuked. Eyeroll.
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By the time PTB is out, the build is already being sent out for verificaton on consoles.
The most that can change between PTB and release are minor number tweaks via hotfixes
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I really dislike how many people in this forum talk as if what they are saying is the absolute truth and the devs show "obvious ignorance" for not doing everything exactly like they want to be done. The devs are making many changes that were requested for years, they also announced many new changes after the PTB feedback, but just because they didn't do everything you asked with precision, than you people bash them, say they never listen to the community and ignore it on purpose and acuse them of being bad of their job. You guys should be more humble.
But know one thing: a lot of people in the community disagree with you and think the changes are good, me included. Your opinion is not an absolute truth and you should start considering the other side, including the points the devs make when making these changes.
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So lets talk about DS as example as the the rest is most likely not much related to what I stated. You discussed internally the stun time. Okay. So what exactly made you think its not necessary to change it back if EVERYONE on this community said its needed with several arguments given and -not even literally- no counter-argument to be seen? This is exactly the issue here: your internal discussion completely contradicts all the given arguments and demands. Nobody can see any reasoning within this. If you would understand why DS is used, you could never make a change that makes that perk even more useless against tunneling than it already was in several regular circumstances.
Its like asking on the solution for 1+1, getting 2 as answers with mathematical proof and you decide internally its not right. reasoning? zero.
And another thing: nothing I stated is disingenous at all. Those are all facts that can be prooved by looking at the feedback and your dev updates/patchnotes. If you ignore 80% of the feedback, just on the major issues, its cleary ignorance of those feedback.
The actual development looks like the following: You change something thats not really necessary at all -> the community gives you massively argumented feedback on how thats not okay -> you make somehow even worse changes for 10% of the feedback and another 10% changes are like "we want it - you want it not - so we implement it nevertheless just with a small tweak, so be glad we even tweaked it for you". I dont see any necessity to give you any feedback if that how you deal with feedback.
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