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Is (or should) the default powerlevel of Survivor be that of players with voice chat?

Madjura
Madjura Member Posts: 2,474

tl;dr: Literally the title of the thread.

Why it matters: Balance discussions. It is currently unclear (at least to me, I believe many others as well) what the powerlevel of Survivors is or should be. I don't think it's really possible to have effective balance discussions when it is not clear how strong Survivors are supposed to be.

I am not saying SWF is over- or underpowered. I am not saying the Killer role is over- or underpowered. I am not saying that every Survivor ever is in a 4-man SWF team. I am not saying that every SWF is using voice chat to get an advantage (relative to Survivors without voice chat).

I want to have a discussion about where the powerlevel of Survivors currently lies, and what the developers but also the community, think it should be.

The first Q&A livestream (before the game even released) confirms two things:

This is in reply to this post by MandyTalk (rules say not to ping if not involved in the discussion, I don't know if this counts as being involved. Just FYI, I am not trying to "hide" this from you or anything MandyTalk) - moving it to its own thread because it's technically off-topic as a reply in the thread the following quote is from: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3068332/#Comment_3068332

And no the game is not balanced about voice communication and it never can be - or should be.

Voice chat, while not supported directly in the game, is allowed and supported through official channels, such as the official Discord. The developers also have the expectation that Survivors use voice chat (see the timestamped videos above) - at least when playing with friends (this does not mean that the expectation is that every Survivor is always using voice chat). Though I would argue that since it's officially supported this is also something that random players can use to have voice chat in the game, i.e. join the Discord and ask if anyone wants to play together through SWF even if those players do not know each other beforehand.

Does that not mean that the default powerlevel of Survivors is that of Survivors using voice chat, and that the game should be balanced around that? The quote by MandyTalk seems to imply that this is not the case. Though I may be reading it wrong - if that is the case I would be grateful if someone could clarify that for me.

Making changes to solo Survivors to bring them closer to SWF level (= implying use of voice chat) is a (relatively) uncontroversial opinion and the developers have confirmed that their intention is to do so. And of course many Killers argue that SWF / voice chat gives an unfair advantage.

Does voice chat actually give you an advantage or is it rather the default powerlevel that Survivors are expected to have? I think it's important to clarify what the powerlevel of a (emphasis on the a) Survivor is in the game for balance discussions. Are we bringing solo Survivors up to the level they should be at? Are Killers playing against Survivors that are at the level they should be at (Solo or SWF with voice chat)?

Note: This is not a binary scale. On one hand: (solo) Survivor with no voice chat, on the other a full 4-man Survivor group with voice chat.

Where on that scale is (currently) the point where we can say "This is the powerlevel that Survivors should be at"?

Where on that scale should (in the future) be the point where we can say "This is the powerlevel that Survivors should be at"?

Have the reached this point yet? (Likely not, considering that bringing solo Survivors up to the level of groups with voice chat is something that is a goal for the future)

What do you think is (or should) be the default powerlevel of a Survivor?

🦆🦂

Comments

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 9,072

    MMR filters out potato's. Of course, if your bad at the game as survivor, Do not expect your teammates to be amazing players either. that's large reason to why killers dislike MMR because MMR makes them go against survivor that are extremely efficient at doing the objective and incredibly skilled at looping. The killer games on average are harder with MMR than they were with no MMR.

    in term of looping, nothing really changes between swf/solo. if anything solo might be better at looping on average because they have to survivor longer against the killer on average. its generators and altruism where solo is worse at. there is less coordination on these two tasks which swf completely excels at which is why they win games faster. You'll definately notice these unusually fast games as killer where the looping is not exactly strong but the generator sure are.

    you can't really punish survivor for playing with their friends. as a result, solo should be closer in swf efficiency.

  • SekiSeki
    SekiSeki Member Posts: 516

    9000

  • SekiSeki
    SekiSeki Member Posts: 516

    I always thought proximity voice chat would be funny, especially if you could hear the killer. Imagine a deathslinger Rping the character. The accent and all, that'd be hilarious. But in actuality, the bm would be obnoxious.

  • foxsansbox
    foxsansbox Member Posts: 2,209

    Absolutely. Voice-integration, no matter how awful it would be, needs to be integrated so solo players realize that comms isn't the only reason SWF's outperform y'all. Also means we could balance around SWF and have a whole lot more fun.

  • TheArbiter
    TheArbiter Member Posts: 2,626

    I feel like all they need to implement is a ping system that displays what each surivor is currently doing, such as "im on a gen" or "going for the rescue"

  • BadZilla
    BadZilla Member Posts: 467

    Or at least add text chat.

  • Jasix
    Jasix Member Posts: 1,245

    If this game had voice-chat enabled - I would disable it always. Last thing I would want my stream to hear is some of the trash people would say. And yes I disable voice chat in other games as well because the maturity level of a lot of online gamers is that of a 6 year old.

  • Vetrathene
    Vetrathene Member Posts: 1,425

    Yes, they need to add voice chat to the game and then they can just buff the killers to deal with SWFs since everyone will have the same advantage and will no longer be unmonitored cheating.

  • Carth
    Carth Member Posts: 1,182

    I do think it should be the baseline however everyone just has this super handwavy "buff killers!" That I don't think is as simple as they are making it out to be. People are already screaming about legion andd plague with a mere 10 second gen timer increase + thanat buff. What exactly would "buff killers after buffing solos" entail? Because I very much doubt survivor players are willing to trade 20-30 second increased gen time for chat/comm wheel. Additionally many people scream about anti-loop and chase duration so I don't think you can tweak that knob either. So how exactly would you buff killers after you give solos VOIP/comm wheel/etc?

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,713

    You don’t balance around people screaming because there are always vocal people screaming all the time regardless of what happens. If hypothetically the devs gave all survivors some buff that mostly helped solo players (e.g. they all get Kindred type info) it would probably result in somewhat higher escape rates, and if it pushed the needle too far in that direction then they could simply, like they are in this next midchapter, tweak gen speeds or action speeds or recovery times in the base numbers to compensate a bit.

    There are some advantages to doing that - it’s simple parameters, they’re literally just changing one number in a datatable when they change base gen speeds for instance. It’s easy for players to understand, it doesn’t increase knowledge overhead for new players, and the numbers can be fine tuned as precisely as desired. The main downside to change a base game parameter like gen and recovery speeds is it does indirectly alter perks and add-ons and such that work as a percentage of that number, so it may lead to some secondary small tweaks in those effects also.

    Either way though fear that some people will complain on the forums when you make a change is never a good reason to avoid changing things.

  • Madjura
    Madjura Member Posts: 2,474

    To be honest I am a little confused why people are saying voice chat should be added to the game. To clarify: I am / was not suggesting that, nor do I think it's necessary.

    Improving the solo experience to be closer to players with voice chat is something that I think should be done. This is also something the developers want to do. From that I think it's fair to say that Survivors in general / on average are not at the level of power they should be at.

    An example for why the powerlevel that Survivors should have / are currently at matters: You are making a new Survivor perk. You need to adjust the numbers. It makes a difference whether you think that literally every Survivor is on voice chat and using it to talk about the game always (one extreme of the scale) or literally no Survivor is ever on voice chat and everyone is always solo (the other extreme). In reality where Survivors are powerwise is somewhere in the middle. Where is that point and what should it be in the future?

    🦆🦂

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,540
    edited July 2022

    Put in icons to let people know what each other is doing. Don't use voice chat.

    As an example, they have voice chat in VHS. Many players don't use it (most don't now that the game is in Early Access) and, frankly it was only 20% useful and 80% annoying in closed beta. It's almost 100% just annoying now.

    Pings could be used but that kind of invalidates Bond, Empathy, etc. Kindred would still be useful but I'm in favour of Kindred being base kit anyway. I'm not saying we shouldn't have pings; I'm saying survivor perks like Bond and Empathy should be considered for buffs of some kind so as not to be useless if there are pings also.

  • ARTRA
    ARTRA Member Posts: 938

    To me yes, buff solo Q to be closer to SWF, ping sistem, automatic text like "i go to rescue" or things like that.

    Then we can talk more about balancing killer vs survivors. For now SWF is far better than solo Q.

  • Archvile
    Archvile Member Posts: 57

    I am convinced that for the majority of development time, BHVR designed DbD on the assumption survivors wouldn't be able to communicate. When it became obvious that their party-based survival horror's success hinged on people, well, being able to party together, they begrudgingly began working on SWF. This must have happened late in development, given that the mode was not available on launch. Hell, I'm sure there were internal controversies on whether SWF should be added at all, I can't see it having been an easy decision. On one hand, the game is not designed around SWF (and this is an objective fact given the huge amount of info perks that were and are available, see Kindred for a glaring example) but, at the same time, I'm not positive DbD would still exist in an alt-2022 where SWF was never added. I imagine the reason KYF was instead available on launch was because it was planned from the start. Of course, when you're playing with friends, you can self-regulate voice chat usage.

    Now, as for the main question: where "should" survivor power be? That's rather subjective, but when it comes to game design I am a pragmatist. Killers will meet normal players and will meet SWFs. If killers want to be able to win consistently, unless SWFs are one in a thousand (which they're not), they'll have to gear up to face that specific threat. This means that, in turn, they are going to be overly equipped for solo-q players. The simplest solution is simply to equalize SWF and Solo-Q by giving everybody voice chat.

    Now, I'd assume most players would not use voice chat still. That's been largely my experience playing other games in solo-q. But having the option in itself is enough to level the playing field. Of course, SWFs would still be at advantage because they'd have more experience playing together, but it would be a gigantic boon for solo-q players.

    I don't think a ping system should be added to the game. If you add a ping system without voicechat, then you're still just buffing SWFs, who now have voice chats and pings. One of the few things that SWFs have to practice is team cooperation, coming up with callouts, learning maps to be able to communicate properly, learn not to talk over each other, etc etc. A ping system would make that much more trivial, while still only barely helping solo-q players.

  • TheLastHook
    TheLastHook Member Posts: 495
    edited July 2022

    I posted this already but I will repeat it once. Since I was involved in the thread.

    Do we know where on the roadmap are with regards to Killers being able to choose among the two "experiences"?

    It would be nice to have an actual option in the UI (like a toggle option) where - as a Killer - you can choose between these two amazing experiences: "The Solo-Q trial" and the "SWF+VoiceComms" experience.

    At the moment, Killers cannot decide who they play against and cannot adjust their builds accordingly either.

    Nor you can hear what Survivors say; even voice communication is not native to the game and requires third party tools (also on console). It would be wonderful if Killers could also opt-in for listening what Survivors chat in order to improve everyone's fun and make the most of the chosen experience.

    To be highlighted from Mandy's insight:

    Perks such as kindred exist because not all players want to play in a SWF, there's the solo experience there as well which has been discussed in this thread.

    It would be kind then if Killers were able to choose experience, too. Thus my comment above.

    But for a short term improvement it would help if Survivors were not able to switch to four flashlights last second in the lobby when the Killer cannot edit the build.

    Post edited by TheLastHook on
  • premiumRICE
    premiumRICE Member Posts: 798

    you either split the queues or take swf as balance into account for all, and as a mainly solo player this hurts but it has to be taken into account.

    Strong survivors already play like swfs even if not that efficiently so yeas, I think swf shoul be taken into account.

    the balance problem tho doesnt limit itself to that

    A stricter matchmaking is required which is not simple thing to craft.

    moreover the main reason why current and past matchmaking didnt feel good is because there is no clear definition of meta/skill and objective ranking is not really an indicator of being good or meritable.

    in my opinion a stricter definition of what meta is supposed to be is essential for the developement of the game.

    otherwise you will end with an half assed game who doesnt know what it wants to be.

  • premiumRICE
    premiumRICE Member Posts: 798

    Mostly correct but swf has the advantage to share the tracking of the killer which is a huge advantage.

  • Rizzo
    Rizzo Member, Administrator, Mod Posts: 17,924

    To clarify here, Mandy was referring to perks that are helpful for players that don't want to play in a SWF, as the discussion was about communication in the game.

    It was not a discussion regarding giving the Killer the choice to play against solos or SWF, there is no plan to make that happen.

    It would be wonderful if Killers could also opt-in for listening what Survivors chat in order to improve everyone's fun and make the most of the chosen experience.

    This is something you can do in KYF with your friends on Discord, if you want to know what the survivors are saying, however it's not going to happen in public matches.

  • dictep
    dictep Member Posts: 1,333
  • neb
    neb Member Posts: 790


    A ping system reminds me of how annoying people in apex legends would be by spamming pings, although a ping system would be really good.

  • TheLastHook
    TheLastHook Member Posts: 495
    edited July 2022

    Thanks Rizzo90, I personally understood what Mandy was saying perfectly.

    Because of some perks being free depending on how you play - among other benefits (or disadvantages if you solo-q) - There are two experiences effectively: the Solo Queue Trial Experience and the Survive with Friends using Voice Communications experience, on the former it would make sense to bring Kindred but you are stupid if you do that in SWF+Voice comms since you will use a stronger perk in that slot, instead.

    You have just said there are no plans for Killers being able to disregard SWF compositions, however, it is a concern that Killers cannot adjust builds accordingly, as a Killer I would love to know what experience I am playing against. Which could also contribute to change the way Killers present the trial.

    To me, the SWF+Voice Comms Experience feels truly unfair as Killer. Unlike Survivors, we cannot choose.

    This is something you can do in KYF with your friends on Discord

    Sure, but no one was discussing KYF. The debate was entirely focused in SWF and later voice communications. For listening to my friends I don´t have to limit myself to KYF I could do it in any mode. Even if not playing with them. That´s a given.

    The point is that if the chat is not so much of an advantage in the different "experiences" like people imply, then, it shouldn´t matter if Killers join the chit-chat, too. Then again the main issue here are language barriers, but it could be done as an opt-in.

  • JackOfTrades
    JackOfTrades Member Posts: 462
    edited July 2022

    THe map (item) has that add-on but in In-door maps the add-on is basically useless (I think).