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Temporary Solutions for Camping, Tunneling, and the Solo Survivor v Survive with Friends Gap
ModernFable
Behavior Interactive
Dead by Daylight
24 July 2022
Temporary Solutions for Camping, Tunneling, and the Solo Survivor v Survive with Friends Gap
Lengthy discussions are often ignored; as such the purpose, detailed reasoning, and explanations of individual changes will be kept to a minimum for the sake of brevity. Moving on, Camping, tunneling, and the ever growing gap between solo survivor (SS) and survive with friends (SWF) game-play are notable sources of frustration in Dead by Daylight; the following changes are intending to address these annoyances with temporary, but quickly applicable solutions.
Having said that, camping as well as the gap between SS and SWF can be neatly handled together. The first action will be pausing the entity progression of a hooked survivor if a killer is within sixteen meters of the hook (disabled if: the exit gates are powered, the killer enters chase, or another survivor enters the range). Additionally, if a survivor is on hook, all survivors auras become revealed to all survivors. Tunneling can be dealt with by applying a short (perhaps twenty second) grace period where after being unhooked, being picked up by the killer will result in a four second stun (disabled if: the exit gates are powered or performing a Conspicuous Action).
Comments
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Care to elaborate in any capacity?
The post was kept brief for the stated reasons, however, responding to concerns in the comments is should be fine.
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« The first action will be pausing the entity progression of a hooked survivor if a killer is within sixteen meters of the hook »
Very easy to abuse (even with your restrictions). Doesn’t make the game more fun for both sides.
« Additionally, if a survivor is on hook, all survivors auras become revealed to all survivors. »
Free info you don’t deserve, removing the horror aspect of the game. Use kindred.
« Tunneling can be dealt with by applying a short (perhaps twenty second) grace period where after being unhooked »
If you need that use OTR.
« being picked up by the killer will result in a four second stun (disabled if: the exit gates are powered or performing a Conspicuous Action). »
Use DS.
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I like the requirement of needing to be in chase. That's definitely something that could involve a solution.
I don't think combating the tunnel/camp should be a passive process of the survivors, I think it should be an active one, one which a team who plays right, can fight it. I've juggled the idea of DS base kit and through discussion, have kind of moved passed that idea. I don't think that is the solution either.
Take a look at my attempt at solving this issue. Pay close attention to Perseverance and the new item mechanic.
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Thank you for taking to time to provide feedback. That being said, consider the following.
Citing a situation where the paused progression can be abused would be appreciated. Also, the intention, as stated, is to address camping specifically. Adjustments to killer can be handled in the same patch or a following patch. These changes are intended to lessen frustrations and ease future balancing (in the case of the SS v SWF gap).
On the second point, one can argue that DBD is not and has not ever successfully existed as a horror game. As such, using that as a reason for why a mechanic should not implemented seems rather opinionated.
On the third point and fourth point, the introduction of these mechanics is to lessen frustrations of DBD, regardless of how one chooses to play, what they may play with, or who they may play with.
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Thank you for providing an additional response, now to address it.
One can argue that there are many situations where camping or tunneling is the most effective play. However, whether or not these strategies are effective or not, they can be noticeably frustrating for players on the receiving end. As such, considering this is a video game with a primary purpose of fun, if it is possible to lessen the effectiveness said strategies, then it should be done.
It should noted once more that these changes are intended to address camping, tunneling, and the gap between SS and SWF. These changes will indeed increase the strength of survivors by a significant margin, and as a consequence killers would receive upward adjustments either in the same patch or the following.
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You are creating new safe zones for survivors. What if the killer is planning to get a 3 gens and hook 2 survivors in the middle of it ?
With your patch, he has to leave the area instead of protecting gens and hooks he worked for, giving the remaining survivors free unhooks where they don’t even have to take a hit for.
What if the killer is a basement / territorial killer : Hag / Trapper having a basement build. You are forcing them to leave their house unprotected. Not everyone is playing facecamp Booba you know.
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There appears to be a noticeable difference of beliefs then.
Given that camping and tunneling are vocal points of frustration in the community, given that Dead by Daylight is a video game for the purpose of fun, should it not be a given that the game be inherently designed to combat unfun scenarios?
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what if the blood points for the killer regresses until reaching a total of zero if he camps a survivor for x minutes?
i'm not talking about only one of these:
I'm talking about bringing all of them to zero.
You wanna win the game like that? fine, but you leave with zero bp.
i bet you we would never see a camping bubba ever again
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Those scenarios can potentially be addressed through additional caveats or adjusted ranges.
Perhaps the paused progression can be disabled if the hook itself is within range of a generator? The exact details can be addressed during a PTB where these situations can be actually observed. However, one can argue that the potential good these changes will provide outweigh the potential cases for abuse. Especially considering that survivors will be buffed by these changes no matter what, and thus killer will receive upward adjustments as well.
On the last point though, if those builds are nerfed indirectly by these changes, then they can be buffed after these changes have been made. They should not halt the implementation of mechanics intending to produce more fun games, simply because they would become weaker for a while.
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This can certainly be a point of consideration.
However, considering how harsh it is, perhaps it should be implemented afterwards. Once, the strategies themselves become inherently less appealing and killer is upwardly adjusted, ensuring both sides are still having fun.
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I think a part of the fun that revolves around dbd are the moments where you can make plays that change the outcome of the game. For survivor, making plays as a team is that much more fun. A lot of games I see survivors splitting up to do gens, they complete the objective but do nothing as a team. Those are always the most boring games, for killer and survivor. Encouraging more teamplay is the best way to handle any core mechanic problem. That is why it should not be a passive process as it will remove another instance where a team can come together and make a play.
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People don't camp for bp, if they did, they would notice how little it gives you. They camp to win. People have the mindset that winning, by any means, is what makes the game fun.
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« Perhaps the paused progression can be disabled if the hook itself is within range of a generator? »
This is easy to abuse on the killer side this time, a lot of hooks are near generators. Most facecamper already use agitation.
Facecamping is only an issue on Booba, that’s it. Don’t create unnecessary restrictions for everyone because of a single killer.
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I understand that tunneling and camping are concerns, however with the way the game is currently these changes can be abused to the extreme by every single survivor in the game who has some level of decent gameplay comprehension.
The 5s stun is even more powerful then DS in its current form and gets rid of the need of the perk in the first place allowing easy access to other perks with no consequence such as prove thyself, botany knowledge, unbreakable, quick and quiet, iron will, lucky break or any other borderline meta perks essentially giving survivors a 5th perk slot. The survivors don't need this at all and can run several perks to counter tunneling if they desire or feel like its too powerful like off the record which Is 80s of invincibility.
The Hook timer being paused is more understandable for its a less common if not rare perk comradary being used, but instead of out right pausing the timer it should just make it so it takes half the hook time
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Again, the specifics can be hashed out on a PTB. And once more, whether it can be abused (by survivor or killer) in niche scenarios should not be the wall stopping the introduction of this mechanics.
Face-camping is not strictly a Cannibal issue, he is a notorious face-camper, however it is not exclusive to him. Also, face-camping has noticeably gained strength in the 6.1.0 patch with the base attack cool down reduction as well as the newfound popularity of Save the Best for Last.
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Which killer can guarantee kills with facecamp besides Booba ?
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The proposed stun is four seconds, a middle ground between the previous balance point of Decisive Strike and the current.
Addressing the other concerns though, other comments shall be deferred to:
The buffs to survivor will not be ignored, and further balance on the power dynamic shall be applied in the same or following patch/PTB.
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Whether a kill is guaranteed or not is irrelevant to the matter of if it is fun to be face-camped.
Of which, the general census of the Dead by Daylight community is thus: being face-camped is not fun.
And more over, the matter of these strategies being unfun is the entire grounds for these suggestions.
Playing DBD as killer or survivor should be fun. If the game becomes unbalanced, favoring one side or the other, that is a separate issue that can be addressed in the same or following patch/PTB. However, changes should be made to ensure fun is the most likely scenario for all.
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What if the killer is a basement / territorial killer : Hag / Trapper having a basement build. You are forcing them to leave their house unprotected.
these killers are already hated by the community for these exact strats and they don't even need it to be viable it just a dick move to get easy kills
both hag and basement have managed to skip balancing to this day.
basement is a boring archaic mechanic that only had a purpose when hooks didn't respawn yet it remained untouched ever since and now only results to encourage camping even more, you should not be rewarded for basement camping/trapping
as for hag she also a relic of old dbd when the devs didn't have "disable killer power in hook proximity" in mind and is considered a boring killer by both sides for her campy uninteractive playstyle
these points do not give a reason on why op's suggestions wouldn't work
trapper and hag do not need basement.
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So you want to shake up the base mecanics, destroy builds, nerfs territorial killers because a tiny of minority of killers facecamp when it’s not even effective ?
It’s never going to happen.
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The desire is to introduce mechanics that ensure fun is a more likely scenario by lessening the effectiveness of unfun strategies.
If that comes at the cost specific builds, then so be it.
Also, a few things to note. The actual amount of killers participating in these strategies, as well as the effectiveness of said strategies, is something that is only assuredly known by Behavior. It is not something a forum member can declare based off their own anecdotal evidence.
Nor can said individual decide whether or not changes can or cannot occur. The community can merely suggest and discuss.
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Only Bubba is just a lie, Twins, Huntress are two HEAVY campers even Demo and Hag camp very well or just wait until unhook and instantly come back. Don't act like its just one killer.
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Even 4s is too much, giving them one of the most powerful perks in the game can be easily abused and manipulated. Its giving survivors 5 perks
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There shall be an attempt to break this down in pieces.
If one finds team-play more interesting than solo, that that is there preference. However, it should not be overstated, especially considering there are numerous perks and builds that expressly promote solo play i.e. Sole Survivor, Left Behind, Self-Preservation, and arguably any perk that does not expressly funnel one towards teammates. As such, prioritizing the encouragement of team-play for fun or as a guiding for balance is an individual preference, and should not be a barrier to the aforementioned changes.
Moreover, simply introducing passive mechanics preventing unfun strategies will not outright eliminate potential opportunities for team-play. Rather it will close the gap between SS where team-play is at its weakest and SWF where team-play is at its strongest. And if one is against that, so be it, another preference. However, it should be noted that closing the gap between SS and SWF has been a reoccurring suggestions for multiple years, as well as something that Behavior themselves have stated they plan to address via icons and other mechanics.
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That may very well be the case. And if it turns out to be so, then it shall be reduced in the the PTB of said changes.
It is worth noting however, that this mechanic would be a much shorter duration, at twenty seconds compared to sixty.
And as stated in various other comments, these changes intend to address camping, tunneling, and the gap between SS and SWF. Killers shall be upwardly adjusted in the same or following patch/PTB due to these changes, but that is a separate issue.
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There is a reason so few people use those perks, I would assume those who do are going for achievements.
So adding ways to push for more teamplay is individual preference but taking them away is solving the issue? I don't think I can get anywhere with this conversation. GL
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Here's a few solutions that you can take advantage of right now:
- Don't get downed
- Bring perks to counter
- Have teammates body block for you
- Stop using bad teammates as an excuse to overbuff your role (you don't need to be in a swf to play efficiently - the truth is most survivors are carried by swfs and are average/bad on their own)
- See steps 1-4 then proceed to step 6
- Play killer and be the change you want to see ie don't camp or tunnel
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The argument can extend to any perk that does not specifcally push a survivor towards team-play i.e. Adrenaline, Inner Healing, etc.. Simply using a perk and engaging in stealth-play, which is not team oriented, can count.
The previous response should be clarified though.
Both are preferences, but the Behavior has expressed desire to introduce mechanics such as action icons (ex: Kate is doing a generator, Dwight is hiding in a locker, etc.), that may reduce team-play, yet that is not stopping them from pursuing such changes. As such, just because something may reduce the potential of team-play, does not mean it should not be implemented, that is the opinion of Behavior themselves: an opinion with greater authority then any forum member, given the fact that they are the ones with the ability to change the game.
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Attempting to address the seemingly facetious commentary:
- Is not a argument for anything, getting downed is a nigh inevitable part of DBD
- The point is to have mechanics that address unfun strategies built into the game regardless of how you play, what you play with, or who you play with
- DBD is largely a game where the likelihood of teammates assisting one another is slim, because individually escaping is not dependent on the group at large escaping
- Very difficult to avoid first person here but: I play killer more than I play survivor. That does not mean the survivor side should not fun. Both sides should be fun most of the time.
- See responses 1-4, then proceed to response 6
- See response 4.
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Additionally, individual killers can be buffed if they are especially hurt by the implementation of these changes.
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- so you accept that certain aspects of the game are inevitable? Good start!
- "Unfun" strategies do not need to be addressed just being you find them unfun. If I said "swfs should be removed from the game because they are unfun to go against", would you accept that argument? I think what you mean to say is "I don't like getting eliminated from the game early and as such, I want the game to protect me from getting eliminated early".
- This is a skill issue. There is nothing stopping survivors from cooperating or playing efficiently. You don't need autopilot mechanics to accomplish this.
- Survivor being "unfun" is subjective. and from my first person experience 9/10 times that a survivor says they aren't having fun is because they can't bully the killer lmao. In an asymmetrical game, it is inevitable that at any given point, one side may be having fun at the expense of the other side. But to suggest penalizing strategies we don't like, makes no sense. Teammate getting face camped? Slam gens and body block if you can. But no, let's not come up with counter strategies. Let's create mechanics that will 100% be abused. Makes total sense lol.
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If it was just the opinion of a single individual or even just a vocal minority of the community, then perhaps camping and tunneling could be dismissed. However, Behavior themselves have as recently as this patch, attempted to address camping and tunneling. So making suggestions on how to better do that is perfectly logical.
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Its a skill issue?
So example I loop a killer for 4 gens and then get face camped by huntress or Billy, thats a skill issue?
You're literally that one dev guy who said its not skill unless you escape lol
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If you loop the killer for 4 gens and your teammates leave you, who's fault is it? If you went down earlier, it would actually force them to either try to come and get you or run the risk of you dying with 2 or 3 gens left and then guaranteeing the killer a 2k-4k. At some point people need to realize the game isn't designed to reward only 1 teammate having interaction with the killer while the others never have to engage in a chase or save. So yes, it's a skill/planning issue on your team's part. They obviously prioritized their own escapes over yours lol.
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You cannot address things by just penalizing one side. They should incentivize/reward not camping not punish it. No solution should involve a mechanic that survivors can simply abuse ie hook timer freezes based on distance etc.
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KiLLaH MaiNz gonna eat you alive if you keep talking about balance for both sides.
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Huh.
I'm surprised - I actually agree with most of these. Especially a short duration baseline DS.
Eh...here's the thing.
I'm very tired of 'bring x perk in case y or you lose' bandaid type fixes. After a certain point, you're basically just reducing perk variety.
Killers are, by and large, in a good place right now. Sadako and a few others need a small buff. Nurse and Blight (but mostly Nurse) need a small nerf. But the major area where 6.1.0 failed was discouraging camping and tunneling - and having OTR taking up a space in my perks when it could be something fun is a bit annoying. Not to mention that some killers (Nurse in particular) don't really give a hoot about Endurance.
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Just ######### remove the hooks.
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So is it dont get downed or just get downed earlier? Lmao
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h
It can be addressed through penalties and/or rewards, it's simply a matter of preference.
If something is an effective solution with niche cases of abuse, then it can be implemented and adjusted in the PTB.
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I think the base kit camaraderie is a good idea!! I'd be sketchy with the 4 second DS base kit that is better than normal DS though lol. And perhaps one day we can get a base kit mini kindred from camping killers.
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Basekit kindred would be good, and your first point could be something to look at if they ever decide to rework Kinship. The latter point isn't necessary imo, they can just rework DS to 4 seconds in that case.
I can't see them changing game mechanics to address the issues, but I can see them adding or reworking survivor perks to deal with it. Much like they added a new perk for killers that enabled them to destroy boons. That way survivors have an *option* to counter these strats, and killers take a risk in relying on them.
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Beside all the reasons it doesn't work and can be exploited, you have to realize camping is sometimes the best if not the only option to counter a survivor play (e.g. gen-before-friend, ignoring hook pressure, ...).
I don't believe there is anything that can be done against camping except making the other choices better.
To illustrate, we have seen several players complain about Legion & Plague equipped with Thanatophobia. I don't believe there were camping complains associated to these. I'm not saying that's ideal of course.
Reducing one's options doesn't fix anything.
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Some aspects are inevitable but camping and slugging, with the current gen speeds, slowdown and regression perks should not be possible. You now don't need to camp and tunnel to do really well and it can make a lot of games end much quicker than they need to for some Survivors.
I play mostly Killer and I agree the patch went a little too hard on Survivors and that tunneling and camping can now safely be nerfed into the ground as a result, because most of the time it's not necessary. Adjust camping so it accounts for floor differences and the actual path you would need to take in cases to get to a hook but otherwise yeah, easy fix.
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It depends. Case in point: yesterday, corn map. I find a survivor and hook him. Gens are going in parallel and they hide soon enough that I don't see them. Two gens pop, the guy unhooked, a third gen pops soon after. I manage to find another survivor and with BBQ I see two on one side on a gen and the third one on another. By the time I would go, it would pop. Nobody ever healed by the way. Guess how it ended?
When survivors are coordinated, there aren't many options left.
The next map, Ormond, same killer, same build, I went full strength immediately and by the time the first gen popped, two survivors were dead. (Then I went a bit softer and the fools didn't realize I was just being nice and started to macro click when I suddenly started to miss hatchets. I killed the fools on the spot.)
The outcome will always be hard to predict. A streamer said that he didn't see any value in playing "nice" or "fair", meaning using every mistake and countering every move. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the right way to play.
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They only really need to look at a few killers that can camp well and adjust how there power works around hooks, take bubba if he is to close to a hooked survivor his chainsaw will only hit one person then have him go into the rage like when you hit a locker, this allows one if not both survivors to get away if you hit the person with borrowed time both will prob get away if you hit the one that did the unhook then hooked survivor will get away.
We know they can address killer powers around hooks take dredge the lockers around a hocked survivor are blocked and you can't teleport to them and wait, its just a matter at looking at which killers can camp well and how they can adjust killers power to only allow them to put one survivor into dying state.
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Mhm... Okay so if a videogame have to be fun then tell me, how much fun to get for example 0 kills? How much fun to play against a full bully team? Did you considered to make some mechanics against scenario when a survivor camps all the pallets, tbag and blinds you at every pallet? Those ones deserved a mechanic to defend them right.
It makes me remember when survivors come in with 4 flashlights, and when the killer bring lightborn they reeee that he ruined their fun. I guess they wouldn't reee against themself if they bully the hell out of the killer with the flashlights.
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It has been repeated in several comments of this discussion, but these changes would not be implemented alone. They would be accompanied by multiple upward adjustments for killer, and most likely tweaks to the suggested mechanics themselves. Both sides should be fun to play.
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The numbers are more than open to tweaks. The four second stun is merely a middle ground suggestion, but it's not at all crucial to the intended outcome of these changes.
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I'm sorry but thats dumb. Do you know how frustrating it is to be forced to bring the same old perks every match for years because killers cant get their act together and get kills by winning chases and instead relying on tunneling or camping? I wanna bring Clairvoyance and Flashbang but NO i need to bring DS, OTR, BT and a means to heal myself or Unbreakable to be able to even remotely play the game. This is worse than killers needing gen slowdown perks but still comparable.
Also what you said didnt actually counter anything suggested. You stated the alternative were trying to get rid of. Technically, you just shot yourself right in the knee and dont even realize it
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