http://dbd.game/killswitch
Has BHVR forgotten how to make good maps?
I believe so.
Many of the oldest maps in DbD feature rotation of their main buildings and shacks which provides a much more varied gameplay in their procedural generations. In addition, they featured better variations on certain loop generations. (eg: If this window is closed than that window is open and vice versa.) These maps generally don't feature any really nasty uncounterable loops (at least not anymore). I like almost all of these maps, the maps made before Dead Dawg Saloon and breakable walls were introduced.
Did BHVR lose or put on other projects their good map makers around 2 years ago? It seems like it. It was at about the beginning of 2020 they transitioned from getting maps that maybe did look so good but played well, to maps that look amazing but play awful.
The first offender is Dead Dawg Saloon. I actually don't mind this map, but it is just so static. The saloon, shack and gallows and the building beside the shack always face the same way, and the tiles that generate across the street always generate facing the same way. Every time I go to Dead Dawg I know almost exactly what to expect and certain walls have to be broken at the start of the match it you spawn close to them. At least this map doesn't have any super-strong uncounterable loops like later offenders and is about the right size. Dead Dawg is also the only map that makes half-decent use of breakable walls.
Midwich is another map I like for the most part, but again it has almost no variation in its generations. Many low mobility killers have a hard time on Midwich while it is easily the Nurse's best map. I still think this map has its place in DbD in its current form. It would be nice to have more pallet spawn locations so we'd see loops where the pallet could spawn here or here rather than always in the same spots (and so fake pallet Freddy could use his power before pallets actually get broken). I'd also love to see the Entity make some of the walls unblinkable through as the Nurse. It could also have more different room generations.
After this the rest of the maps seem to get much more advantageous for survivors.
The Game's rework actually has a decent amount of procedural variation on the bottom floor at least but it features far too many safe loops that aren't difficult to string together to near-endlessly. It also features that really weird and strongest T & L wall variation in the game for no good reason. If this map just had a few lest god loops it would be fine, imo.
RPD... now we're getting to the worst of the worst offenders, I don't think this map has an procedural variation at all and is the perfect example of looking good while playing awful. I won't go into detail as to why it is bad. I will just say this is my least favorite map to play on both as survivor and as any killer on the roster.
Eyrie of Crows is a really cool map... aesthetically. I mean it looks really cool I'll give you that, nice work. But the main building always faces the same direction, why? It has a square footprint so why not make it so it can face 4 directions? It also lacks variation on where pallets and windows generate, it could really use more window "slots" and make some of those generation pairs where a window spawns here or there. At least the Shack does rotate. What makes this map harsh to play on is it is huge and features too many safe pallet loops using tall obstacles which also for the most part are in fixed locations. Eyrie of Crows always seems to be the same map with the only variations being the direction of the shack and which tiles generate in the 3 tiles slots. It also feature those small bush-like objects with absolutely horrible collision.
The Haddonfield rework is awful too, I think they might have actually made it worse. Old Haddonfield had 3 building slots where the 3 different buildings would generate so playing on the map didn't feel so repetitive game after game. New Haddonfield the only variation is where the House of Pain generates and the other slot gets filled with an empty yellow building. All of the buildings always generate with the same windows when it could really use some of the window pairings used in older maps where if one window is open the other window slot is closed. Haddonfield's buildings feature many annoying windows where the killer has no way around. The second floors of the buildings are too closed-in in general with not enough exits. At least old Haddonfield second floors always offered a way out the front and the back, even if the Trapper could place undisarmable traps at those windows.
The Garden of Misery, er, Joy. This map is only slightly better than RPD, imo since at least I can avoid the main building. The main building always faces the same direction, but it's a very uniquely shaped building. The shack and the corner pallet+window loop always face the same direction, which seems to be an oversight for these square structures. The rest of the map is varied enough, but this map has many other problems. The map is covered in far too many of those large bushes with horrible collision that devour M1 attacks, chainsaw sweeps, frenzy attacks and other things and make chasing survivors on most loops just not enjoyable. The tiles on this map are just weird. The edges of the map are ill-defined. The main building is the worst building in the game. It's too dark inside for no good reason. There is nothing inside the building to loop aside from one weak pallet. It features at least 2 good "escape" windows where if the survivor jump out the window they will certainly make enough distance to get to another loop and the god window next to the god-like pallet. This building is so bad that if I am given the choice between chasing a survivor into that house or camping/tunneling someone else, I will choose to camp/tunnel. I hate that building so much, it sucks the life out of me. It also features the most pointless breakable wall in the game.
(TL;DR:) In summary, I hope to see more of the old tricks used again. More buildings and tiles that rotate. More of the window pairings where there are 2 or more window "slots" but in only one of those slots is the window open. More tiles or loops where the pallet can spawn in more than one location. Less obstacles with horrible hit boxes.
Comments
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Huh. I'd definitely noticed that I was disliking a lot of the recent maps, but I didn't connect it to variation. While I doubt that's the only problem, you're completely right. Older maps had different windows and orientations, and often you'll run to a window only to find there's no window there this time or get smacked with a pallet you had no idea spawned there, where new maps are always static and the only variation comes from jungle gyms and hills. It's like how looping in RPD takes no brain because you just have to learn one fixed path and that's it. It's memorization rather than a dynamic understanding of tiles.
I would say they're doing the fixed orientation to prevent super strong chained tiles from occurring, but... that's clearly not what's happening. 🤷
Hell, Garden of Joy's main building is a premier example of a building where leaving all of those windows open at the same time feels like an oversight, but closing some would help to balance it. Some of the Haddonfield houses have the same issue.
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while I agree that the randomness of map generation has decreased a lot this is not my main issue with maps.
Imma list my issues with all the maps you listed because they are objectively just the absolute worst
Dead Dawg Saloon:
- map is actuall balanced but there are too many breakable wall
- at the start of every round you NEED to go into the main building and break the same 3 walls just so the building is not abusable by survivors during a chase; afterwards you can play
- some edge map "loops" have breakable walls despite being exteremly unsafe; some jungle gyms have breakable walls that turn them into unbeatable loops without breaking the wall
- there should just be less walls on this map
Midwich:
- less walls please
- more ways to get up and down, maybe a staircase leading into the courtyard?
- agree on the randomness, there should be more
Gideon Meatplant:
- too many god pallets
- too many good loops
- too little mindgames
- remove some pallets; add new tiles that allow for actual mindgames
RPD:
- this map is too big
- this map is too dark
- navigating this map takes a lot of games until you know where's what; too unintuitive
- hooks spawn too far apart because it can take hours to reach the door that leads into the room with the hook
- i dont mind an inhenrently static map as this map feels like it benefits from it
Haddonfield:
- add breakable walls into buildings so you have an actual counter to the infinite in the main building
- add holes into walls in the buildings to make some windows less safe
Garden of "Joy":
- add a breakable wall into the main building so the god window in the bottom floor has an actual counter other than bamboozle
- turn the train into a loop, it make me sad that it is a horrible window in the middle of nowhere
- make the walls in the jungle gyms hugher so survivors cant look over them; currently they remove all mindgame potential which just turns them into shack 2.0
- make the main building brighter
Eyrie of Cringe:
- shorten some loops in the middle of the map; survivors can clearly see you so maybe they shouldnt be able to loop that fence 3 times
- add more stuff into the main building, that thing is a deadzone after that 1 pallet in the top floor has been broken
- make some loops more mindgame intensive; seeing the killer the entire time you run away makes the game very static
it is what it is, i hope the awful maps get reworked soon but i doubt it; guess i just gotta accept that I lose as soon as someone abuses the infinite in haddonfield when i play Demo
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The devs don't care about maps being balanced, they care about maps looking good.
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I forgot to mention Garden of Joy's lazy hook design. All other hooks in the game (even the event ones) drop the hook structure to a easy recognized 90 degrees whenever the hook is sabotaged or permanently destroyed by sacrificing a survivor on it. The Hooks of Joy feature a fixed horizontal support and the actual hook itself is slender enough for a killer to assume the hook is there when it is not. The worst hook design in the game. They lazily forgot their own hook design philosophy.
I also would like to add the Temple of Purgation to the list of shame. The Temple itself always spawns in the same direction, with the the windows in the same spots and same 2 very bad pallets down stairs. Overall this structure is very empty and killer-sided and it becomes even more so once the generator is finished downstairs and all the doors open up. This building would be greatly helped by more window and pallet slots so it's not always the same predictable death trap. It's a square structure that doesn't have any strong tiles or loops spawn near it, it is a prime candidate to add rotation to.
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You're missing the worst offender: The main building on all five of the Badham maps. It's always the same and unless the basement happens to spawn in it, it's as good as a free escape (after a super, SUPER long chase), just by going into it. And the breakable wall they added actually makes it STRONGER for the survivors.
It's a real piece of work.
They need to make vault spots breakable, instead of adding more useless breakable doors, super long loops, and endless god pallets across the board.
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Unless I'm just incredibly disoriented, I thought Temple's windows rotated? Even the one on that pointless upper staircase swaps spots between a usable jump and a worthless one. I've also seen a pallet by the entrance that isn't always there (not the god pallet on the other side, but the side that's closer to shack.)
I'm fine with the upper story of that building, though the basement is a deathtrap. The only use I ever get out of there as a survivor is wasting Legions' Feral Frenzies.)
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a lot of players tended to complain that dead by daylight had too much rng on maps. that your rng on the map dictated how the match went.
they did not forgot how to make maps. in fact I think all of their maps are of the highest quality in appearance and gameplay. They just removed rng in making maps because players asked to remove rng of making maps.
in my opinion, DBD is not rng based. it never was. all pallets that spawn are normally always static placements and all tileset location are generally static. Sometimes filler pallets have very slight differences in position but these are very easy to account for as survivor in most cases.
What people were really talking about in regard rng is safe loop design tiles vs unsafe loop design tiles.
for example if a map has 6 tile set locations. If all these locations spawn classic jungle gym tiles, you essentially get 6 safe god pallets extra on the map, basically you get 6 additional shack pallets on the map. Likewise, if you get 6 T-L walls, you lose 6 safe god pallets on the map. This used also be mixed with four-wall loop which contains unsafe pallet and even less strong window, so some maps used to spawn like 3 T-L walls and 3 four walls
so when survivor talk about map rng, they're essentially complaining why their map doesn't have 6 jungle gym shacks and long-wall short wall pallets to auto-pilot loop the killer.
when killer talk about map design, they're essentially complaining why the map is not filled with mindgamable loops like T-L wall & four walls which survivor mains will coin as auto-pilot auto win loops for killer(from bloodlust).
For some reason, they thought that rng complained was related to rotate map buildings. I don't know why, but it is what it is. If you go to talk about this whole concept of loop money, that whole concept is entirely wrong with how DBD works.
if you ask me, i think that having such long-walls on all the pallets is super unhealthy from game design perceptive because it makes every killer feel like they need an incredible game-breaking power in the chase otherwise, the killer will feel like half of their chase gameplay is entirely meaningless from safe pallet design. It proves to be a difficult challenge to make unique killer powers that feel different, fresh(like old freddy). you can try plaster-fix on m1 killers by creating perks that increase lunge velocity and perks like coup the grace that increase lunge distance by a lot(since walls are very long) but it goes back to perks fixing basic-kit gameplay design.
at the same time, you get opposite problem with survivor complaining that deathslinger or spirit is uncounterable because they got an entire map full of 4 wall and T-L spawns on killer powers that were designed for more powerful loop design.
So in the end, you either make killer powers extremely powerful with entire map being completely godlike in strength or you make every killer power as watered down as possible with every pallet and window being no stronger than midwich elementary school. Currently you have neither.
So when your entire post is talking about map rng and rotation of tiles, its mainly removed because of DBD developer incompetent and misunderstanding of the entire problem that players were complaining about.
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They have never made a good, balanced Map
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in my opinion, DBD is not rng based. it never was. all pallets that spawn are normally always static placements and all tileset location are generally static. Sometimes filler pallets have very slight differences in position but these are very easy to account for as survivor in most cases.
I disagree. DbD has always been RNG-based, as long as I can remember and I've been playing since 2018. Without a map offering we are always playing map roulette. Tile roulette still exists on most maps. You can be sent to Shelter Woods which is a very killer-sided map, but have 3 of the new user-generated tiles spawn which are the the long C-wall with a window in the middle paired with a strong pallet and walk away from the match with only 2 hooks. Every time a killer swings at a survivor vaulting a window we play ping roulette to see if the hit lands.
if you ask me, i think that having such long-walls on all the pallets is super unhealthy from game design perceptive because it makes every killer feel like they need an incredible game-breaking power in the chase otherwise, the killer will feel like half of their chase gameplay is entirely meaningless from safe pallet design. It proves to be a difficult challenge to make unique killer powers that feel different, fresh(like old freddy). you can try plaster-fix on m1 killers by creating perks that increase lunge velocity and perks like coup the grace that increase lunge distance by a lot(since walls are very long) but it goes back to perks fixing basic-kit gameplay design.
I agree that long walls in loops are not particularly fun, especially on loops where there is almost no mind game potential. And many tiles and loops exist where that is the case.
So when your entire post is talking about map rng and rotation of tiles, its mainly removed because of DBD developer incompetent and misunderstanding of the entire problem that players were complaining about.
I think laziness and them putting DbD on the back burner while they work on other projects are to blame here too. Making it so using certain offerings guarantee you get sent to certain maps is horrible too, a killer's game can be ruined on the offering screen.
They have never made a good, balanced Map
I like the Yamaoka and Crotus Prenn maps, among others. There are some good maps in the game where both sides have a decent chance to win that could be used as models/templates for good map designs.
I mainly made the post because whenever I go to Dead Dawg, Midwich, Haddonfield, RPD, Eyrie of Crows or Garden of Joy I pretty much know exactly what the map layout is without having to explore. It's boring and repetitive gameplay.
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I read some of that, but yeah...the maps suck.
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I mainly made the post because whenever I go to Dead Dawg, Midwich, Haddonfield, RPD, Eyrie of Crows or Garden of Joy I pretty much know exactly what the map layout is without having to explore. It's boring and repetitive gameplay.
well yeah because of what i said earlier, people complaining about rng so now the maps are static to not have rng. now your asking maps to have more rng.
DbD has always been RNG-based
well I disagree. looking at recent maps they're pretty static and frankly old maps did not have that much rng either. they were pretty static as well. only rng you had was loop-tile set, but in modern dbd, you do not even see 4 wall loops that much anymore. the macMillion Estate maps having diverse loop tileset was just something added recently to the map, so shelter woods just changed to be more rng based.
I agree that long walls in loops are not particularly fun, especially on loops where there is almost no mind game potential. And many tiles and loops exist where that is the case.
dbd always heir on the side of strong killer power vs strong loop design. old dbd is like billy using strong add-ons to curve on a farm map. that is dbd at its finest. so strong powers are much better mitigate rng for killer rather than making all the maps weak and making killer powers dull to use. just my opinion though. doesn't mean that it is right.
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