Insta-heal Balance Suggestions
While being in a chase, survivors can use an insta-heal to heal in front of the killer and take 1 more hit. This effect doesn't have a downside at the moment, but I think high rewards should also come with a risk.
I have two different suggestions to make the insta-heal add-ons more balanced.
Version 1:
The survivor who got healed with an insta-heal suffers from the exposed status effect for 30 seconds.
Version 2:
Keep the current insta-heal and give killers a similar add-on for one-time-use. Killers can activate that add-on whenever they want – the next hit will insta-down the survivor.
What do you guys think?
Comments
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What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
is this a bait or..?!15 -
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively. There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.
Post edited by perotx on17 -
@Marvett said:
What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
is this a bait or..?!The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.
If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.
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@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
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I'd say make you exposed for 15 seconds. I say 15 because that is about how long you would have spent to heal yourself in the first place so it effectively is a passive heal. Maybe we could just make it that? You use it and it gradually heals you over the next few seconds stacking with other sources of healing and lets you do other stuff while this is happening
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@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
I didn't say that there are offerings that give you an instadown, and I didn't say that there are many add-ons that give you an instadown. Maybe stop twisting my words if you want to have a discussion. All I said is that there are already strong add-ons and strong offerings for killers. When I mentioned offerings, I specifically was referring to the ebony mori, which cuts the number of objectives for killer in half with no gameplay-downside. How do you figure that? Do we need to slow the killers movement speed by 50% now because there are no gameplay-wise downsides? Also, not all offerings/add-ons need to have an exact opposite on the opposing team's side, it makes gameplay 2 dimensional and boring. Besides, instadowns are stronger for a killer than an instaheal for a survivor. And there are also a direct counter to ANY item add-on, which is Franklin's. You can't use an add-on if you don't have the item.
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i agree with @perotx as a survivor main who also plays killer i am i think rank 6 atm steadily going down i want that achievement before rank reset lol,i only use brown addons maybe the occasional yellow addon i play spirit for the most part sometimes wraith and other killers for dailys, instadowns are by far way stronger then survivors instaheals if you don't see that you are in denial also survivors dont have any good offerings while killers have moris it literally makes it so you can have an easy match that's what it does,tbh i believe mori's should only be gained when you get a mori daily and you keep getting one capping at 1 until you have succesfully gotten a mori it would make the game less aggrivating for streamers who are just trying to entertain viewers and make a living aswell as the rest of the people in a match,now i ask you this killer mains would you be upset if survivors could have an offering to bring someone back to life? your probably tilted by that thought aren't you but it has clearly been stated that at heir are ''infinite bubbles where the survivors are being hunted by the killers'' so death isnt exactly permanent mori's should be left to dailys and rancor making moris alot less often and making them more special and when people see you using a mori offering they know its for a daily or if your using rancor that you just want an actual mori a styptic agent isn't that good its really only for use while saving someone off hook and using on them to get them fully healed or mid chase while your decentely safe and syringe is the cluch heal when a person gets down you run your happy self over t your teammate or friend and most likely get hurt in the process and heal them up but now at this point you pretty much just switched places with that person who was going to get hooked and now the killer is in hot pursuit of you,a killer being in chase for a longtime is in most cases their fault because they try to do the walk backwards hide stain when we can see them its really just killers messing up in chases and blaming survivors for being op its not our fault were a bit quicker on our reflexes,and to make it clear again i am mostly a survivor main but ill tell you right now i have been playing killer while my friend is away we when groupped up are a 2 man swf not the biggest challenge int the world so don't cry about it,i have been playing killer as spirit and its pretty much just been steamroll after steamroll after a few matches maybe someone will get out through hatch or maybe exit gate but it will only be one survivor and i pip or double pip every match killer is not as hard as people say and honestly i see it as the only people that say killer is hard are the one that will never speak about their own mistakes in a chase or because they are playing music whatever don't complain about something that isn't wrong when the problem is you,put credit where credit is due and put blame where it is due i am rank 6 spirit atm so dont come at me sideways saying oh your not rank one youd never understand,um im sorry babe but i play better then most rank ones i just dont play killer enough to get me there but maybe ill put enough matches in to get there must about 80% or more of my time in this game is with my friend where we are constatly rank 1 weve ran into monto and his gf they were pretty meh weve had tydetime as killer twice hes always going tryhard because tbh in those matches weve had of him and watch a few of his videos hes also meh,i think weve had tofu or whatever his name is also meh dont dont come at me sideways anybody because you dont know me and in match you prolly cant handle me
gl out there in teh fog guys.1 -
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
I didn't say that there are offerings that give you an instadown, and I didn't say that there are many add-ons that give you an instadown. Maybe stop twisting my words if you want to have a discussion. All I said is that there are already strong add-ons and strong offerings for killers. When I mentioned offerings, I specifically was referring to the ebony mori, which cuts the number of objectives for killer in half with no gameplay-downside. How do you figure that? Do we need to slow the killers movement speed by 50% now because there are no gameplay-wise downsides? Also, not all offerings/add-ons need to have an exact opposite on the opposing team's side, it makes gameplay 2 dimensional and boring. Besides, instadowns are stronger for a killer than an instaheal for a survivor. And there are also a direct counter to ANY item add-on, which is Franklin's. You can't use an add-on if you don't have the item.
This is true. Dead by Daylight is classified as an asymmetrical horror game, asymmetrical meaning that the sides are vastly different from each other, and not completely opposite. If I'm willing to give up a medkit just for the purpose of an insta-heal, then I'm going to use it in a chase. Pretty much what it's made for, hence the depletion of the medkit on use. Now, I'm not going to tell how to play, but I'm telling how some people play, which is using Franklin's. It's not too far out there, and is used from time to time. But, there's also insta down add-ons, which if not used before for some reason, can still cancel out the effect, leaving the Survivor with no item, similar to Franklin's Demise. Killer's are either going to have an insta-down add-on, or a perk that permits insta-down. There's not going to be a one-use thing, because that's just a consumable that won't get much use. Besides add-ons can't be found during the game, and that's why we use them the whole trial. That's also why we have Black Wards, to protect the add-ons for another use, because they're not as flippantly used as items are if they're a of a decent rarity or if you're low on them. Though, at the end of the day, everyone has their own opinion, so I'm throwing mine out there as well. Don't judge me for it or anything. Thanks.
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Insta heals are good as it is.
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@NuclearBurrito2 said:
I'd say make you exposed for 15 seconds. I say 15 because that is about how long you would have spent to heal yourself in the first place so it effectively is a passive heal. Maybe we could just make it that? You use it and it gradually heals you over the next few seconds stacking with other sources of healing and lets you do other stuff while this is happeningThanks for the input! I have a slight problem with only 15 seconds and I'll explain why:
Insta-heals are super strong but don't follow the risk/reward principle.To not get hit for only 15 seconds doesn't require skill and isn't a risk. I believe with only 15 secs, insta-heals would still be a freebie.
Concerning your suggestion with the gradually healing while the surv can do other stuff: If that process would take like 30 seconds, then this would work as well.
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@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
Maybe stop twisting my words if you want to have a discussion.
Where did I twist your words?
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
When I mentioned offerings, I specifically was referring to the ebony mori, which cuts the number of objectives for killer in half with no gameplay-downside. How do you figure that?
So everytime somebody wants to discuss an unbalanced survivor perk/item, you'll say " but killers have moris"? Did I get that right? And when somebody wants to discuss an unbalanced killer mechanic, you can say "but survivors have insta-heals and DS"?
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
Besides, instadowns are stronger for a killer than an instaheal for a survivor.
All insta-downs require some skill and a lot of killers don't have insta-downs. Insta-heals don't require skill, they are freebies.
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
And there are also a direct counter to ANY item add-on, which is Franklin's.
Why do you think it's balanced to counter an add-on with a perk slot?
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
Also, not all offerings/add-ons need to have an exact opposite on the opposing team's side, it makes gameplay 2 dimensional and boring.
Was that your reply to my question if you would be fine with my suggestion in version 2, giving the killer a similar add-on? It would be "boring"?
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@NoShinyPony like @perotx said, the downside is the reduced charges and the fact they use up the whole medkit when they're used.
Exposed effect is definitely an overreaction for a one time use item. If you're adamant to somehow nerf instaheals, here's a suggestion for you: make it create a skill the moment you start healing, with similar success zone as BNP. You hit it: instantly healed. Miss it: healing continues like normal. Would also be a bit more challenging to do it while in a chase.
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@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony like @perotx said, the downside is the reduced charges and the fact they use up the whole medkit when they're used.Exposed effect is definitely an overreaction for a one time use item. If you're adamant to somehow nerf instaheals, here's a suggestion for you: make it create a EDIT: skill check the moment you start healing, with similar success zone as BNP. You hit it: instantly healed. Miss it: healing continues like normal. Would also be a bit more challenging to do it while in a chase.
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@NoShinyPony said:
While being in a chase, survivors can use an insta-heal to heal in front of the killer and take 1 more hit. This effect doesn't have a downside at the moment, but I think high rewards should also come with a risk.I have two different suggestions to make the insta-heal add-ons more balanced.
Version 1:
The survivor who got healed with an insta-heal suffers from the exposed status effect for 30 seconds.Version 2:
Keep the current insta-heal and give killers a similar add-on for one-time-use. Killers can activate that add-on whenever they want – the next hit will insta-down the survivor.What do you guys think?
I actually like version 1, but the amount of time is way off in my opinion. It should be 5 seconds or something like that. It's just enough, so the survivor can't use it last second as they realize they have made a mistake. With 5 seconds, they can still use it after a pallet drop without being insta-downed, but it will also notify the killer, that it might be a wasted chase, and allow him to decide whether or not to move on to another person.
The current insta-heal screws the killer way too much IMO.0 -
I like version 1 but version 2 is already in the game0
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@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony like @perotx said, the downside is the reduced charges and the fact they use up the whole medkit when they're used.It costs bloodpoints to get a new insta-heal and maybe a brown medkit if the surv doesn't get one from a chest. It's not a downside gameplay-wise.
@George_Soros said:
here's a suggestion for you: make it create a skill the moment you start healing, with similar success zone as BNP.Does hitting a skill check really require skill? That change would be better than no change at all but I don't think it's enough.
You could compare it to DS: This perk is heavily discussed because the only downside/risk is that the player could miss the skillcheck but the reward is super high. Some people say the perk is okay the way it is, others don't. DS and insta-heals aren't that different when it comes to their effect on a match. But DS at least consumes a perk slot while an insta-heal can be brought as an additional add-on.
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@NoShinyPony said:
@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony like @perotx said, the downside is the reduced charges and the fact they use up the whole medkit when they're used.It costs bloodpoints to get a new insta-heal and maybe a brown medkit if the surv doesn't get one from a chest. It's not a downside gameplay-wise.
@George_Soros said:
here's a suggestion for you: make it create a skill the moment you start healing, with similar success zone as BNP.Does hitting a skill check really require skill? That change would be better than no change at all but I don't think it's enough.
You could compare it to DS: This perk is heavily discussed because the only downside/risk is that the player could miss the skillcheck but the reward is super high. Some people say the perk is okay the way it is, others don't. DS and insta-heals aren't that different when it comes to their effect on a match. But DS at least consumes a perk slot while an insta-heal can be brought as an additional add-on.
Maybe. I get mad sometimes when a survivor slips away in endgame thanks to an instaheal, but I don't think this is one of the most pressing issues. Guess we weigh the problem differently.
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@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony like @perotx said, the downside is the reduced charges and the fact they use up the whole medkit when they're used.It costs bloodpoints to get a new insta-heal and maybe a brown medkit if the surv doesn't get one from a chest. It's not a downside gameplay-wise.
@George_Soros said:
here's a suggestion for you: make it create a skill the moment you start healing, with similar success zone as BNP.Does hitting a skill check really require skill? That change would be better than no change at all but I don't think it's enough.
You could compare it to DS: This perk is heavily discussed because the only downside/risk is that the player could miss the skillcheck but the reward is super high. Some people say the perk is okay the way it is, others don't. DS and insta-heals aren't that different when it comes to their effect on a match. But DS at least consumes a perk slot while an insta-heal can be brought as an additional add-on.
Maybe. I get mad sometimes when a survivor slips away in endgame thanks to an instaheal, but I don't think this is one of the most pressing issues. Guess we weigh the problem differently.
Mmh... Imho, insta-heals are even more game-breaking than DS, and DS is heavily discussed.
I want to talk about unbalanced things since they are keeping people from playing killer. You probably know that lobby waiting times for survivors have been pretty bad for a while since not enough people play killer. In order to solve this problem, a lot of things need to be reworked.
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@NoShinyPony said:
@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@George_Soros said:
@NoShinyPony like @perotx said, the downside is the reduced charges and the fact they use up the whole medkit when they're used.It costs bloodpoints to get a new insta-heal and maybe a brown medkit if the surv doesn't get one from a chest. It's not a downside gameplay-wise.
@George_Soros said:
here's a suggestion for you: make it create a skill the moment you start healing, with similar success zone as BNP.Does hitting a skill check really require skill? That change would be better than no change at all but I don't think it's enough.
You could compare it to DS: This perk is heavily discussed because the only downside/risk is that the player could miss the skillcheck but the reward is super high. Some people say the perk is okay the way it is, others don't. DS and insta-heals aren't that different when it comes to their effect on a match. But DS at least consumes a perk slot while an insta-heal can be brought as an additional add-on.
Maybe. I get mad sometimes when a survivor slips away in endgame thanks to an instaheal, but I don't think this is one of the most pressing issues. Guess we weigh the problem differently.
Mmh... Imho, insta-heals are even more game-breaking than DS, and DS is heavily discussed.
I want to talk about unbalanced things since they are keeping people from playing killer. You probably know that lobby waiting times for survivors have been pretty bad for a while since not enough people play killer. In order to solve this problem, a lot of things need to be reworked.
I'm not sure what to say. It's a one time use item. That's very restricting. Adrenaline is way more threatening, especially since the completely unnecessary change that it can kick in when someone is unhooked. And there are plenty other things.
When I play survivor, I'd much rather take Gel Dressings and either a speed increase addon or another extra charges addon, because it's so much stronger than an instaheal. Having an item that is gone after one use is not that beneficial for a survivor.As for waiting times: I guess I'm in a lucky region, but hardly ever have problems either as killer or survivor. People not loading, that's a bigger issue but that's purely technical.
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The downside is consuming a med kit, having less of said medkit before hand, the price of the medkit, the price of the needle, and the VERY rare status of the needle. Couple that with having to chase teammates down and NOT be doing gens to get the heal off, and it being useless against a killers (much stronger I add) insta down, and that’s you’re price for bringing it.
It absolutely has downsides AND risk reward. So tell me, how is any statement you made correct?
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@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
Maybe stop twisting my words if you want to have a discussion.
Where did I twist your words?
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
When I mentioned offerings, I specifically was referring to the ebony mori, which cuts the number of objectives for killer in half with no gameplay-downside. How do you figure that?
So everytime somebody wants to discuss an unbalanced survivor perk/item, you'll say " but killers have moris"? Did I get that right? And when somebody wants to discuss an unbalanced killer mechanic, you can say "but survivors have insta-heals and DS"?
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
Besides, instadowns are stronger for a killer than an instaheal for a survivor.
All insta-downs require some skill and a lot of killers don't have insta-downs. Insta-heals don't require skill, they are freebies.
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
And there are also a direct counter to ANY item add-on, which is Franklin's.
Why do you think it's balanced to counter an add-on with a perk slot?
@perotx said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@perotx said:
There are downsides, it consumes the med-kit upon use. It also reduces the charges by 25% and 50% for the styptic agent and the anti-hemorrhagic syringe, respectively.These aren't real downsides gameplay-wise and it has definitely nothing to do with the principle of risk/reward.
@perotx said:
There are already strong killer add-ons and offerings, some of which do give you an insta-down.There aren't any offerings that give you insta-down. Only Clown and Huntress have insta-down add-ons. On top, the huge majority of strong killer add-ons are still balanced.
If you think that the current insta-heal is fine and balanced, what would you have against a similar add-on for killers (as described in version 2)?
Also, not all offerings/add-ons need to have an exact opposite on the opposing team's side, it makes gameplay 2 dimensional and boring.
Was that your reply to my question if you would be fine with my suggestion in version 2, giving the killer a similar add-on? It would be "boring"?
No, that's not at all what I'm saying when I'm bringing up the ebony mori, and once again, you're twisting my words, which you had done several times now, and if you can't see it - you're not being intellectually honest. You said insta-heal doesn't have a gameplay downside, which I disagree with, but for the sake of argument I went with it. I gave you an example of something that most people think is balanced and doesn't need a change, and that actually doesn't have a gameplay downside. Simply because something doesn't have a "gameplay-downside" doesn't mean it should have one.
Instadowns don't require any extra skills, that's what matters. Instaheals don't either, true, but as I've previously said, instadowns are stronger for killers than an instaheal for survivors.
Why do you think it's not? It's just an advice. Personally, I don't have any problems with add-ons, but if you do - run Franklin's. Also, it's not just a counter to add-ons, it's also a counter to items in general and you know it perfectly well. It's just another instance of you being intellectually dishonest.
Yes, 2 dimensional gameplay, especially in a asymmetric game, is boring. It's not my main argument against it, but you're once again being dishonest and putting it in this perspective.
So, to conclude, you've twisted my words and were dishonest every single chance you got, so don't act like you don't understand. Instaheals are fine the way they are. Killlers don't need more instadowns, and certainly not in the form of add-ons.
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It's kinda bullshit though, if you think about insta heal + adrenaline..... You basically make it so you'd have to hit a survivor four times to down them. That's pretty ridiculous.
Adrenaline should give you the broken status effect, so you can't stack adrenaline and insta-heals.
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PSA: Incorrect != Intellectually dishonest or lying
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@Jack11803 said:
The downside is consuming a med kit, having less of said medkit before hand, the price of the medkit, the price of the needle, and the VERY rare status of the needle.The item and the add-on cost some bloodpoints in the bloodweb, just like every other item, add-on and offering. That's not a downside gameplay-wise. Insta-heals also are not super rare on lvl 50, you get them in pretty much every bloodweb.
And having less of the medkit when an insta-heal is equipped? Are you telling me this is even worth mentioning?
@Jack11803 said:
Couple that with having to chase teammates down and NOT be doing gens to get the heal off, and it being useless against a killers (much stronger I add) insta down, and that’s you’re price for bringing it.Your decisions to play a game are not a downside. A downside is a direct attribute of a game mechanic. I can give you examples if that would help you understand the topic better.
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Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.
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@Ihatelife said:
Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.
In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?
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@tehshadowman33 said:
It's kinda bullshit though, if you think about insta heal + adrenaline..... You basically make it so you'd have to hit a survivor four times to down them. That's pretty ridiculous.Adrenaline should give you the broken status effect, so you can't stack adrenaline and insta-heals.
At least Adrenaline follows the principle of risk/reward. The survivors' risk is that they still need to be alive in the endgame and for that perk to be really useful they should be in a chase or at least injured when the last gen gets done.
Of course, the combination of Adrenaline + insta-heal is super strong, but I'd only rework insta-heals.
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@NoShinyPony said:
@Ihatelife said:
Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.
In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?
Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.
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@Ihatelife said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Ihatelife said:
Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.
In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?
Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.
First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.
As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.
It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.
"You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.
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@NoShinyPony said:
@Ihatelife said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Ihatelife said:
Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.
In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?
Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.
First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.
As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.
It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.
"You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.
Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.
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Personally, I'd want to see nerfs to Memento Moris (except the Cypress one), Keys (except the Broken one), and insta-heals add-ons (both Styptic Agent and Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe).
Not sure how I'd do the first two, but I think the insta-heals have a few ways of going about it. Two come to mind:
1) Add a skill check that the Survivors need to hit to get the insta-heal. Hit the check, and they insta-heal + lose the Med-Kit. Miss the check, and they lose some charges on the Med-Kit (meaning that if they miss too many times on the insta-heal, the Med-Kit breaks).
Would look something like this:
Styptic Agent
Very Rare Med-Kit Add-on
-Reduces charges by 25%
-Use the secondary action to trigger a difficult skill check. Succeed the skill check to instantly heal one health state and consume the Med-Kit. Failing the skill check uses 4 charges.
2) Make it so that a Survivor still has to heal themselves normally with a Med-Kit, and the Styptic Agent/A-H Syringe add-ons would immediately kick in on the first skill check they successfully hit. Maybe just consume the add-on instead of the whole Med-Kit as compensation?
Something like this:
Styptic Agent
Very Rare Med-Kit Add-on
-Succeed a skill check while healing to instantly heal one health state and consume this add-on.0 -
@Ihatelife said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Ihatelife said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Ihatelife said:
Jesus christ. Survivors needs also some helpful stuff like insta-heals. Every side have a different benefits in the game. Such as the killer can mori survivors, insta-down them etc. Besides survivors more die than escape.I believe that helpful stuff should still be balanced. I'm fine with the existence of insta-heals as long as there is a downside which makes the add-on balanced.
In general, if there is a strong perk/item/add-on for either survivors or killers, it should be balanced. I don't like the freebie character of insta-heals. It takes no skill, there is no risk. There is no equivalent for killers with such a freebie trait. A killer equivalent would be that somebody just randomly loses one or two health states. And of course, that doesn't sound reasonable at all. So why should survivors have such an unbalanced add-on?
Than why killers should have mori, insta-downs add-ons? Mori after the nerf doesn't have a downside. You just need to hook a survivor and ta dam you can mori him. Without this you must have to get them killed by hooking them 3 times per person, so there is not downsides for this offering. Insta-down hatchets? Yes there is downside by reducing the carrying a hatchets to only 1, but you have unlimited times to use it and insta-heals are only once per trial.
First, I don't think the Ebony Mori is balanced. It's too strong. But the existence of one unbalanced thing doesn't justify the existence of another unbalanced thing. There simply shouldn't be anything unbalanced in a game.
As you described, insta-down hatchets have a downside. And on top, it still takes skill to hit a survivor and the killer has only 3 attempts (if the add-on for additional hatchets is used). After these 3 attempts, the chase is over. Insta-heals on the other side take no skill at all. Just make a click and it's done.
It's similar to the one other insta-down add-on in DbD. That's it. Not a lot of killers even have insta-downs.
"You can only use insta-heals once per trial" is not a downside, either. If you could use them multiple times, nobody would play DbD anymore.
Than... I'm okay with insta-down nerf if we nerf a mori.
Make a thread about nerfing Mori's then. I'm certainly up for the idea if you have something specific in mind
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I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
s ideas as they don't really make since imo.The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.
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The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.That's why I was suggesting giving the insta-heals the exposed status effect for 30 seconds: It would take care of the problem with insta-heals during chases.
Chases are too easily interrupted for just a few couple of seconds. If you would change it so that insta-heals can't be used during chases, it would not solve the problem, I'm afraid.
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@Blueberry said:
I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
s ideas as they don't really make since imo.The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.
Yup. The insta-heals especially take a lot of the killer's time if they are used during a chase. That's why I am suggesting giving the exposed status for 30 seconds: It would solve the problem with people healing in front of the killer.
Another version for a rework: Don't make the insta-heal a complete health state but only like 50 % of the health bar. What do you think about that?
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@NoShinyPony said:
@Blueberry said:
I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
s ideas as they don't really make since imo.The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.
Yup. The insta-heals especially take a lot of the killer's time if they are used during a chase. That's why I am suggesting giving the exposed status for 30 seconds: It would solve the problem with people healing in front of the killer.
Another version for a rework: Don't make the insta-heal a complete health state but only like 50 % of the health bar. What do you think about that?
I like that idea of the best insta heal only doing 1 health state, that's a little more manageable than the double.
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@Blueberry said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Blueberry said:
I think they are an issue. Not sure how I'd go about fixing them though. I'm not keen on OP
s ideas as they don't really make since imo.The insta heals kill so much time and pressure. As soon as ones used you pretty much have to go into heavy try hard mode to try and make up that lost time and pressure.
Yup. The insta-heals especially take a lot of the killer's time if they are used during a chase. That's why I am suggesting giving the exposed status for 30 seconds: It would solve the problem with people healing in front of the killer.
Another version for a rework: Don't make the insta-heal a complete health state but only like 50 % of the health bar. What do you think about that?
I like that idea of the best insta heal only doing 1 health state, that's a little more manageable than the double.
So you mean the Syringe should heal one health state and the Styptic Agent like 50% of one health state?
That would not change the issue that survivors are healing in front of the killer during a chase.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.This makes insta-heals virtually useless. If I'm not in a chase why would I use a rare single use item to heal when I could just take a normal medkit with charge/speed add-ons or self-heal?
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@Naiad said:
@Kind_Lemon said:
The only issue with insta-heals is that they are used during chase. If there were a condition saying that pressing the secondary action button while healing does not apply in chase, the insta-heals would be fine.This makes insta-heals virtually useless. If I'm not in a chase why would I use a rare single use item to heal when I could just take a normal medkit with charge/speed add-ons or self-heal?
You can still save a lot of time with insta-heals.
My point is that the healing while being in a chase is too strong.
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@NoShinyPony said:
While being in a chase, survivors can use an insta-heal to heal in front of the killer and take 1 more hit. This effect doesn't have a downside at the moment, but I think high rewards should also come with a risk.I have two different suggestions to make the insta-heal add-ons more balanced.
Version 1:
The survivor who got healed with an insta-heal suffers from the exposed status effect for 30 seconds.Version 2:
Keep the current insta-heal and give killers a similar add-on for one-time-use. Killers can activate that add-on whenever they want – the next hit will insta-down the survivor.What do you guys think?
Umm maybe better, you get 3 skillcheck for activate the instaheal -_-?
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@NoShinyPony said:
@Marvett said:
What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
is this a bait or..?!The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.
If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.
Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?
You need to waste BP on insta-heals. The kind to get someone off the ground is at the same rank of being able to kill everyone with your hand. The kind to heal one state is a level below, but it costs a lot to make your way through the bloodweb just to get an item survivors won't keep. You're likely to not even get it on the first level 50 you have to pass and mind you, killers get twice the bloodpoints and have an easier time getting their bbq stacks than survivor's wasted slot of wglf. If we aren't arguing BP, we can also argue timing. You need to actually be in a good spot, otherwise the item will be wasted or go unused. It's barely a "freebie" as it costs quite a bit and you need to time it well, as well as be in the right spot.
I'm guessing by your avatar, you're a huntress main. Even if you aren't, this still stands. The huntress has an add-on that gives her one-down potential from far away. What you're suggesting would be like saying the huntress should have a cool-down on her one down. By your logic, that would be fair. Wait a good 30 seconds, that way it isn't a "freebie." Perhaps we could even venture to say a missed hit will count towards that 30 seconds. Wouldn't want to give anyone "freebies," after all.
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@fluffybunny said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Marvett said:
What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
is this a bait or..?!The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.
If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.
Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?
Wrong. I'm a survivor main.
And now? You realize a discussion doesn't work by just throwing random assumptions around? On top, it's really impolite. Do you think people will still be respectful towards you when you behave like that?I have also explained multiple times why spending bloodpoints is not a downside gameplay-wise. I also explained why insta-heals are a freebie while a killer still needs skill to land insta-downs. I even explained it with the insta-hatchet example. Just scroll up.
If you still have questions after reading the thread, I'll explain what is unclear to you.
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@Arroz said:
@NoShinyPony said:
While being in a chase, survivors can use an insta-heal to heal in front of the killer and take 1 more hit. This effect doesn't have a downside at the moment, but I think high rewards should also come with a risk.I have two different suggestions to make the insta-heal add-ons more balanced.
Version 1:
The survivor who got healed with an insta-heal suffers from the exposed status effect for 30 seconds.Version 2:
Keep the current insta-heal and give killers a similar add-on for one-time-use. Killers can activate that add-on whenever they want – the next hit will insta-down the survivor.What do you guys think?
Umm maybe better, you get 3 skillcheck for activate the instaheal -_-?
Good idea, that would also be an alternative. That way, the instaheal could not be used while being in a chase.
And that's the major problem with insta-heals: At the moment they are used during a chase/in front of the killer.0 -
@NoShinyPony said:
@fluffybunny said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Marvett said:
What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
is this a bait or..?!The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.
If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.
Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?
Wrong. I'm a survivor main.
And now? You realize a discussion doesn't work by just throwing random assumptions around? On top, it's really impolite. Do you think people will still be respectful towards you when you behave like that?I have also explained multiple times why spending bloodpoints is not a downside gameplay-wise. I also explained why insta-heals are a freebie while a killer still needs skill to land insta-downs. I even explained it with the insta-hatchet example. Just scroll up.
If you still have questions after reading the thread, I'll explain what is unclear to you.
I apologize for triggering you, though it wasn't based on nothing and therefore not an assumption, but an observation and a question. It isn't wise to shoot down conversation, though, and my point still stands. I don't know about you, but I don't want to waste bloodpoints on another pointless item, considering how many characters I have. If the person healed someone from the ground, that's likely a free down. If the person healed themself, that's a wasted item and if they did it at a poor time, free hit. If you're really that afraid of an insta-heal, just bring franky's. It's a pretty nice counter.
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@fluffybunny said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@fluffybunny said:
@NoShinyPony said:
@Marvett said:
What's the point of using an instaheal if i can get downed in one hit anyway.
is this a bait or..?!The point is: For the current version of insta-heals, the surv doesn't need any skill. It's just a free heal up during a chase without downside and unbalanced.
If the surv lasts 30 seconds without getting hit after the insta-heal has been used on them, then it took some skill and wasn't a total freebie. If the surv doesn't last 30 seconds and gets downed due to the exposed status, then that's just the downside. I mean, survivors also use DS while there is the risk of not hitting the skill check.
Weren't you the one asking if survivor mains play killer? I suppose I have the question of if you're one of those killer mains who don't play survivor. You seem to be lacking in knowledge on how all this works. Have you played survivor?
Wrong. I'm a survivor main.
And now? You realize a discussion doesn't work by just throwing random assumptions around? On top, it's really impolite. Do you think people will still be respectful towards you when you behave like that?I have also explained multiple times why spending bloodpoints is not a downside gameplay-wise. I also explained why insta-heals are a freebie while a killer still needs skill to land insta-downs. I even explained it with the insta-hatchet example. Just scroll up.
If you still have questions after reading the thread, I'll explain what is unclear to you.
I apologize for triggering you, though it wasn't based on nothing and therefore not an assumption, but an observation and a question. It isn't wise to shoot down conversation, though, and my point still stands. I don't know about you, but I don't want to waste bloodpoints on another pointless item, considering how many characters I have. If the person healed someone from the ground, that's likely a free down. If the person healed themself, that's a wasted item and if they did it at a poor time, free hit. If you're really that afraid of an insta-heal, just bring franky's. It's a pretty nice counter.
You did not trigger me. I pointed out how you were impolite, wrong in your observations and wrong in your assumptions.
I did not shoot down the conversation, either. I replied to everything you mentioned in other posts already and therefore asked you to read the thread first. If you can't even put that low amount of effort into a discussion, then that's just how it is.
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Literally just make it a heal over time.
Not useless in a chase but still gives a chance to be stopped by the killer
Not useless outside of a chase as you can do other things in the mean time
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@NuclearBurrito2 said:
Literally just make it a heal over time.Not useless in a chase but still gives a chance to be stopped by the killer
Not useless outside of a chase as you can do other things in the mean time
Yes, that could also work.
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Ok so remove Billy and Bubba's insta downs, remove all Mori's except Yellow, remove Iridescent Hatchets, and Pinky's Finger, remove Myers Evil III. Now does that sound like a fair trade to deal with the insta heals because if so I'm sure survivors would agree to it.
The better way to handle them is to make them have a prep time ie they take a few seconds to administer so 2 seconds of healing for the Sytpic agent and 5 seconds for the Syringe.
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@powerbats said:
Ok so remove Billy and Bubba's insta downs, remove all Mori's except Yellow, remove Iridescent Hatchets, and Pinky's Finger, remove Myers Evil III. Now does that sound like a fair trade to deal with the insta heals because if so I'm sure survivors would agree to it.All the killer downs require skill, the insta-heals require a click. The non-existing killer's equivalent to an insta-heal would be the killer making a click and the survivor just losing one or two health states. If the killers could get such an add-on, survivors could keep the insta-heals.
However, the insta-heals do not need to be removed entirely, they just need a rework. There are already some good suggestions in this thread here.
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