Why is there a skill issue with so many killers?
Many killer mains claim survivors can't play without old DH, so they just need to learn how to loop properly (especally against Nurses and half the other killers with a build-in anti looping capability).
But to be honest, if you take a look on popular and skilled dbd killer streamers, they never had a problem with achieving a 4 k (or 3k + hatch escpae) in 90% of their matches before this update.
So why is there such a huge skill issue within the killer base, that apperently many killers can't win games without 125% movement speed after 25 seconds, forever-gens-builds and buffed camping and tunneling strategies?
Comments
-
If the killer isn't Otzdarva, why aren't you Ayrun or JRM? Why the skill issue for survivors?
57 -
lmao
11 -
Otzdarva, Hexy, Umbra, Dowsey, TrueTalent, ScottJund, ZubatLEL, OhTofu and many others didnt have any problems to win most of their games unless they used obvious meme builds.
Also is JRM dying in most of his matches.
3 -
i can agree with the OP, i was getting 4k's with freddy before the rework, people just are either not using their head, getting drawn in by tbags an letting emotion make them mess up, or are just wanting to play x killer because they like the look of them and not because they are actually decent at playing them, if you want to win most of your games as killer, ya gotta be honest with yourself, and save yourself a lot of frustration in the long run, not every killer is meant to do everything, some are good at ending chases fast, some are good at gen pressure, find out which works best for your style of play an how ya have fun an go from there, loads of killers to choose from these days
5 -
Because if they had skill they'd play a game where it matters. Content creators get money for DBD so it makes sense.
5 -
The biggest skill issue currently are all the DH users getting filtered down to their true mmr
18 -
Because it's a 1 vs 4. Killer is one person trying to get 4 people who are all on the same side. If those 4 are even halfway decent the 1 is at a disadvantage without huge areas in their favor. Think of it like a mario party game: 3 people vs 1 person minigames happen occasionally. The lone person gets an easier time because they are relying on themselves alone as opposed to being helped by someone else. You also have to keep in mind that streamers aren't necessarily on the same level as most players. Take lilith Omen on blight, I couldn't do a flick or a moonrush or whatever he calls them- to save my life, but he does them almost casually because he has practised it way more than most people who just want to play the game have. Now look at JRM, even after the update he probably isn't struggling to play survivor- but many are. If I were to see JRM doing well as a survivor and ask why you can't be as good at him, you would probably say that isn't fair- and you would be right. You shouldn't have to be the best to get a win, just better than the other side.
4 -
Of course they didn't have trouble getting kills at any time, that was my entire point. You can't use people who play the game for a living as examples of what to expect balance wise. Or anyone who does something professionally vs. recreationally. If you do, that's just silly.
And if Ayrun and JRM played with the primary goal of escape (rather than memeing around for entertainment, which you pretty much have to do to be a big surv streamer), you better believe they would most of the time.
At 8K-10K hours, you shouldn't have much trouble doing anything in game, but that's not 99% of the playerbase, which is what we are talking about here.
When people always cite streamer gameplay to back their point, to me that indicates they don't have much direct experience in whichever role they're talking about to draw from. Or they've played like 50 hours of the "other side" at low MMR, which is essentially useless for analytical purposes.
BHVR has the master stats, and what they show across the board was kill rates they feel were too low, so the changes came. If they get too high, sometime a few months in the future, I expect they'll adjust again.
18 -
The thing is you can't compare a streamer who plays the game as their Job in a sense and has well over double or triple hours into the game than your average DbD gamer. That's what annoys me when people link Otz or another streamer playing as a Killer and use it as proof of stuff.
I know I don't have the skills like Otz so I'll lose many Killer matches and win many too.
9 -
Yeah you’re right. Everybody should be as skilled as streamers who play twelve hours a day, every day, for a living.
11 -
I somewhat agree with you, the harsh nerfs to survivors and considerable buffs to killers is a bit overtuned.
But I need to point out that you’re literally comparing average players to streamers with thousands upon thousands of hours and are true professionals of the game.
They make their living on playing the game and the average player will not be nowhere near their level of skill or have the time to develop that kind of skill and experience
4 -
lol what, did you watch the cherry picked (nothing wrong with that) videos that these streamers or youtubers use? Pr sure otz has a video showing all of his super rough games where he mostly loses, and dead hard was destroying him.
Dead hard may not seem like a lot, but since almost everyone used it, and it extended chase time by a lot per person, it was most definitely the cause of many losses. The only reason me and many other youtubers and players won was because some survivors were too dumb to use it for distance, or they're using nurse/blight with a super strong build.
The plan was always to kill the weak link who has no idea how to use dead hard, and then kill the rest. If everyone had a brain and used dead hard to extend chases 20+ more seconds, it'd be hell. And no, you couldn't drop chase, because if you did, not only did you waste SO MUCH time chasing the guy with dead hard, you'll most likely chase another survivor who's also using dead hard (since the sheer amount of players who used it were high), and extends the chase as well.
6 -
The game's target balance isn't expert level 3000+ hours. I'm sure it's a consideration, but this update seems to be targeted at that 200-1000 killer player who has a solid understanding of the game but would probably end up with fewer than 5 hooks against a decent 4 stack prior to the update.
1 -
Just watch a normal Gameplay of Otz. You have to wait hours to see him actually lose a game. His Video where he collects his loses is a compilation of several weeks of playing.
I have to disagree to the argument that those people are extremely experienced.
Like c'mmon, every second user on this board has several thousands hours in this game and plays it for his/her lifetime.
0 -
Because the majority of the matches they play are against what we like to call "normal" survivors. The problem is at the absolute highest level of play, this game heavily favors the survivors. Watch just about any tournament and you'll see that every killer who isn't nurse or spirit basically runs end game perks like NOED and face camps the first person they hook. There is a reason for that.
Try watching the matches that tru3ta1ent played against team oracle a while back. Even someone like true who has thousands upon thousands of hours gets completely destroyed by a good survivor team.
1 -
Content creators play a lot more often than regular people, and are thus more likely to win a lot of matches. But Otzdarva, Tru3, and OhTofu have plenty of matches where they have really hard matches or outright lose.
Otz and Tofu even upload matches to YouTube where they fail terribly (Tru3 does as well, though most of his YouTube content is VODs from his stream) so its not true to say that they never have difficult matches.
1 -
It's not the point, that on highest level of competition game was survivor sided.
We are talking about the usual 90% of the matches. Most killer mains talk about the sweaty 4 man SWFs like they face them everytime they play while in fact you only see them once every 10 matches.
Decent killer were always able to 4 k in their most matches at least for the last 4 years.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Yea, they uploaded like 1 out of 100 matches. At the same time Otz has winstreaks of 40-60 wins in a row on each killer...
0 -
It's true tho most killer mains on twitch had like 90% winrates before patch, especially the ones that play "dirty" like hexy, truetalent or dead plays, now after patch it's even worse... watching is pointless
solo Q was always the hardest role not killer it's just the truth, besides dead hard and 4 man squad game was fine, I was winning more than half of my games easily and I didn't played this game for 10 000 hours, average survivor is not that good
4 -
"top mmr survivors are so rare they shouldnt even be remotely balanced around"
"Top mmr killers stomp bad survivors! We gotta stop this!!"
Make it make sense.
11 -
Because most people are bad at this game and refuse to admit it.
Most of the survivors streamers play against are pretty bad and make mistakes frequently. The streamers play enough to know how to capitalise on those mistakes whereas other players don’t know how to because they aren’t as good. Look at the games where streamers turn a game around and win when they were losing most of it. The survivors usually make a big mistake and the killer knows how to use it. Most killer players don’t. A lot of killer players also don’t even mid game loops and will instead just run the most inefficient path.
Same with survivors. Most killer players aren’t that good and a decent team could probably beat most of them, yet a lot of survivor players are cocky or don’t know how to actually play against a specific killer and so the killer ends up winning even though they didn’t actually play that well themselves. Seriously, so many survivors think they are gods at this game and follow the killer around trying to flashlight save, only to screw it up and cost everyone the game. If they were doing a gen instead they would have a better chance of winning. Also a large amount of survivors have terrible awareness and will run into the killer or run at the only survivor doing a generator.
And the main reason I believe people are bad (beside believing they’re are good and refusing to improve) is that a lot of this community only plays one side. Streamers may have a preferred side to play, but most of them still play both sides regularly so they have a better understanding of the game. A lot of peoples complaints about this game could be helped by playing a few games with what you are having trouble playing against and then seeing how other people counter it or see that it might not be as strong as you once thought.
3 -
This argument is terrible and let me explain.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is balanced or shouldn't be fixed. Look at nurse for example, in the hands of an "average 90% of killers" she is terrible, the data that BHVR shows in fact last time they released it showed her as like the lowest kill rate killer. But in the hands of someone very good, she dominates.
Is she balanced?
Let's take an exaggerated example:
Imagine for a second there was a killer offering that did the following:
- The killer moves at 300% movement speed
- The aura of all survivors is permanently revealed
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors can be immediately mori'd upon being downed.
I think we would all agree that this offering would be overpowered. Now let's say we "nerf" it by making it so it only appears in the bloodweb with a 1% chance. this means you would statistically see this offering once every 100 games. Now it's balanced. right?
Now, i agree that most matches against "normal" survivors aren't great. But that is terrible for those survivors, and therein lies the problem. Don't you think the game would be much better if a "normal" game with "normal" survivors was a little better for the survivors? Don't you think the game would be better if solo queue wasn't a giant crap shoot? We need to close the gap between SWF and solo queue, and then buff killers to compensate. This game should be fun and fair for both sides regardless of the situation.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Big streamers don't represent most of the player base at all and are not a good example for game balance. We are talking about people with thousands of hours more than even the most dedicated players who aren't streamers, but who most of the time will be facing the majority, the average players who have far less experience than them. EVEN THEN, they would still occasionally meet many survivors they just couldn't beat even while playing to the best of their ability, and Otz has multiple long videos that show many of those matches.
Also, there are streamers who do insanely high escape streaks while playing solo. The same way you are talking about killer streamers, one could argue that shows solo survivor was perfectly fine and not at all as hard as many people on the community were already saying.
2 -
Based on what source you say so many forum users have experience compared to streamers? Even if you nitpick the ones with the highest number of hours, still won't match. Also, you shouldn't argue about balance based lousely on a claim about "every second user'" you can't even prove.
But if you want an example, there you go: I know I play far more than average myself and, with that, I recently reached more than 3000 hours.
Do you know when Tru3ta1ent reached 3000 hours? If I remember correctly, around early 2018. And I started playing only about one year after him. With all of that, while far above average, he isn't even close to the most skilled big streamer.
Now imagine comparing that to most of the player base, who plays far less than I do, specially the ones starting now, who didn't have 5 freaking years to learn to play this game.
Streamers are not comparable to the rest of the player base. At all.
1 -
Your numbers are quiete exaggerated. There are no 90% of trash nurses out there. In fact everyone can become a decent nurse if you just spend some dozens hours of playing her. But of course, if you play your first 10 matches with her you might think she is quite weak...
Balancing around top tier full team SWF on comms is nonsense if you destroy the game for 90% of other players.
0 -
The actual world record on solo survivor escape streak is 34 so far (Kller, a german streamer, without using keys). Not very impressive compared to many killers with 4 k streaks of several hundreds matches.
I never denied top streamers wouldn't lose at all. Their losses are just completely neglectible, sinse they win most of the time and collect their losses for uploads over weeks and months.
There is also such thing as skill ceiling. Skill gains are huge when you just start playing a game. A player with 1000 hours is way Wayyyyyy more better than a player with just 100 hours in DBD. But is a player with 2000 hours way more better than with 1000 hours on average? Slightly, yes. But the difference is not that great anymore. ZubatLEL was an amazing player with 3000 hours and he is still is with 7000.
Therefore it's not wrong to compare players with 10,000 hours with players with "just" 3000 hours. There are many experienced killers (or dbd players in general) out there who perform similar to popular streamers.
0 -
Without dh to extend/reset chases survivors are now playing much safer. Instant or pre-droping pallets has always been an option and difficult for a majority of killers to counteract. Even with the gen changes there are more than enough resources for survivors to burn through while the others focus on repairs.
0 -
So then you are okay with that offering existing then? If so we should put in a request to the devs to get it added. Call it the "Sweet Potato" Offering. Sound good to you?
Also, my numbers are not, let me look for the kill rate data they last released (granted it's a bit old now but it still shows the point)
0 -
Using streamers as a way to gauge skill for killers is kinda bad considering that most streamers usually don't run full meta such as otz. And when they do they don't get an easy 4k or 3k they usually have to heavily sweat.
0 -
Here we go. this data comes from 2021-2022
If we balance around the "90% of other players" then based on this data we need to actually buff nurse and nerf pig again.
4 -
It's just not true. They win most of the matches without much effort. Just watch their streams and tell me how many matches they lose out of 100.
1 -
So you are just telling me, that actual numbers are really fine and there was no need to buff killers, since even worst of them reached 50% kill rate.
Since January Nurse also got buffed. Thanks to range add ons which increased her teleport speed, so actual numbers for spring should be already higher.
1 -
But the most scary thing is when Killer (lets say skill of 5/10) reaches to their high possible MMR (match skill ranking of 6/10) and cant win any more after that. They still think the game is still survivor sided. Which alot of topic created recently after days they get constantly win.
0 -
For streamers who are live, I don't know how they do it, but they don't seem to get good survivors like 80% of their matches. But most of the ones who take stuff from their streams to highlight, the only show their wins. The exception is Tru3 and Otz. So if you watch literally anyone else, they're pretty much lying to you about how the game is for killer.
You destroyed a Wraith as a SWF? I'm shocked.
And that's cap. Amazing killers couldn't get 4ks against good survivors, so how could decent killers? That's why killer's been buffed so much, because their baseline sucked so bad. Trapper couldn't even pick up 2 traps without a bag add-on. Wraith couldn't even move fast without Windstorm. Blight couldn't see above a window. So how were those killers ez to 4k with?
And it does not matter if you don't see SWF that much. The truth is that they break the game because they set up body blocks and prioritize gens like solos never could. Killers at higher MMR do see them all the time, like half their matches. I can't even get to high MMR with certain killers. Why? Because I hit a SWF brick wall every time.
2 -
You care to tell me who to watch? Cause I watched Truetalent before the patch and he was not having an easy time and I'm pretty sure otz would have done the rest of the killers 50 win streak if it was that easy.
1 -
I love how theres this double standards for killer mains constantly. When survivors talk about balancing the killers say its a skill issue and survivors have to adjust and get better.
Yet when the survivors say its a skill issue and example streamers who have not had issues getting kills, the killers say no, they do it for a living so of course they are good, its not fair to compare you need to balance around the majority (average skill) and buff us. - do you not see the irony. Its a skill issue.
4 -
I still stand by the idea that the game isnt sided at all to any specific, and that the side that wins will always be the side that brings the strongest stuff and plays the most efficiently. Survivors can win just as well as killers can, and survivors can lose just as much as killers can.
There are people who play a certain role exclusively and always complain that the other role is overpowered, both sides do it, people on both sides lack accountability, but dont pin it exclusively to one single side.
0 -
Right, though old DS, DH and CoH were so broken for low tier Killers. Not mention the possibility of 4 Ranger or BNP. On Killer, using Nurse Blight Spirit, with 4 slowdown and tunneling.
The game is try hard's sided.
I dont think one using try hard loadout winning a casual one, means casual one's skill is worse.
I cant tell if other survivors here are try hard, but I was always use meme build and get punished by try hard. Which isnt fun.
On killer side, if I lose, I drop MMR, my match are more casual. I never take 4K as a win. I never want to increase my MMR as killer anyway, I keep it low
1 -
I only use meme or gimmick builds in most of my matches, since I aim for fun over winning, but on either side, if you bring worse stuff than your opponent, you have a much more significant chance of losing in comparison to that of bringing the best stuff. The only time you get leverage over the opposing side is if they are way worse than you, or the opposing side makes huge mistakes.
Overall, I think people just need to get use to losing.
Sometimes you dont escape as survivor, sometimes you do. Sometimes you get a 0K, sometimes you get a 4K. Sometimes you throw the match by your own mistakes, sometimes you get absolute destroyed, but sometimes the other side makes enough mistakes to win, sometimes you destroy the other time. It happens. It's DbD and it happens. Im just tired of the community discourse over it, it's been this way for literal years and people still cant get over it.
0 -
i could say the same for survivors, you know? btw if those steamers did 4k so much often was because they went aganist mediocre survivors (and honestly i'm starting to think that they have a different mmr concept, completely different and separated from the other people since when i saw them most of the times they are aganist people who can't even kept busy a killer for more than 20 seconds, even when in a ultra safe area)
3 -
Let's change dark souls 2 so that whenever you take a hit you die
After all Otz did beat it without taking a hit. If you can't it's just skill issue.
2 -
There is no skill issue with top MMR killers because these killer buffs just works against baby survivors. Most of maps still survivor favored and coordinated survivor teams still beats killers easily. That's not a skill issue.
2 -
"These people with 9000 hours have no problem. What is your excuse?"
3 -
Is there logic?
0 -
TrueTalent wasnt playing Wraith, if you look carefully.
He was playing Dredge with good addons (Nightfall from the beginning of the match), which gave him a down very quickly. So it's definetely not the weakest killer. But he decided to tunnel and camp and this didn't work out cuz even with just 2 people in voice call in that specific game my friends and me were able to do gens and to unhook. Even though he got a grab on the hook, but also got a flashy save at the same time and lost everything.
But yea... a brown medkit and two flashlights are OP survivor equipment as well I guess...
However this is not his typical game. If you watch his streams then you should notice than besides his typical crying about how hard killer life is (one of my friends in this match is also a killer main btw and 4 ks most of the time) he wins 9 out of 10 his matches (even before the update).
0 -
You don't need 9000 hours to be a good killer in this game. Your marginal experience gains are neglectable at this point.
0 -
Well I've seen many videos of truetalent and he always did the same: Hook someone and tunnel him till he is out of the game.
I literally saw him holding a 2 minute body block in order to tunnel someone out of the game until he got the speed boost and finally got him.
I mean, he's not the best example of a good killer if he's always winning because of that.
0 -
Killer players tend to be the most lazy playerbase ive ever seen in any game. they think they deserve a 4k every game without having to pay any sweat into how to play a character and just serach for the most easy ways of playing to achieve their entitled 4k. thats why killer players are far more worse in skill than survivors, who are also mostly not even good to begin with even though the fundamentals are so easy to understand. also killer get hard carried by gameflaws and now even by anything else. base mechanics? hold your hand now. perks? hold you hand even more. devs did pretty much everything to make playing killer the easiest and most braindead experience possible. youre bad at this game? who cares? just play killer and win even against better players with ease.
6 -
I've seen many of his videos and he always tunnel and camp by default. Even at 5 gens. Even if their teammates are bodyblocking so hard that the chase lasts 2 minutes to take one hit.
It's unlucky that tactic works so well against soloQ
1 -
Agreed 100%
And there are actually still Killer players who still think this game is Survivor sided and demand more buffs for themselves and nerfs for Survivors which is just sad, like how much easier does it have to get? It's a shame the devs catered to those kind of players.
1
