Reconsider Thanatophobia, please
When reworking Thana, I feel that the problem this perk has was completely missed.
Thana was oppressive on Legion/Plague because they can reliably injure and team, and keep them injured. This is a trait not shared by most other killers. However, before its change, Thana was decent on other killers such as Twins or Wraith. While they can't keep the entire team injured like those two, they could still get some value by having 1-2 people injured.
New Thana... now is only useful if you're Plague/Legion, keeping the entire team injured. I feel this misses the point. Thana at full power was too oppressive but Thana at partial power was too weak to justify using on most killers. This rework... only kept the oppressiveness on the two best users.
What I propose is a sort of inversion of the current rework. Current Thana starts at 2% but gets a massive 12% bonus once all 4 are injured (something that can only really be done by Legion/Plague).
Instead, I think there should be a flat 4% base + 3% for every injured survivor. The numbers would go 7%, 10%, 13%, and then 16%. The max potential of Thana is lowered so it's less oppressive on Legion/Plague, but the minimum potential is raised so it can see more use on other killers.
Side note: Please allow Thana to affect blessing speeds. I beg.
Edit: I don't think I made it clear how this is supposed to work. When someone is injured, all survivors get a 4% penalty + 3% for every injured survivor. This does NOT give a 4% penalty when everyone is healthy. So, the numbers are 0, 7, 10, 13, and 16.
Comments
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That’s kinda what I wanted to see, although I don’t think a 4% base penalty with no one injured makes sense. It shouldn’t do anything if everyone is healthy. But I agree with the general concept of rewarding the first 1-2 injures more than the 3rd and 4th ones, this way it lowers the maximum penalty and lowers the value legion and plague can get from it, thus making it a bit more consistent across all killers.
Also yes please make it affect blessing.
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I don't think I worded it well. It's not 4% when everyone is healthy. It's 4% when someone is injured PLUS 3% for every injured survivor.
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I feel thana was overused, every single killer had it. Which in the long run meant more people would resort to gen rushing perks in my experience, leaving a lot of perks unused. Of course thana deserves a nerf so not every single one is gonna run it.
*Thanatophobia*
Decreased the penalty per injured, dying, or hooked Survivor to 1%/1.5%/2% (was 4.5%/5%/5.5%)
Added: If there are 4 injured, dying, or hooked Survivors, there is an additional 12% penalty to repair, sabotage, and Totem-cleansing speeds.
So devs decide to cut thana power with 65% but add in a new effect, which is only usable on Legion or Plague, but increases counterplay tremendesly. Now only one person needs to heal up instead of 4. (Before one survivor was 5,5%, rougly 6 percent which is the new thana power for 4 injured people if you leave out the new effect). The problem is definetly the new effect making the perk useless at actually everyone, because you only need one person to heal up to lose a 12% speed advantage. Which will result in less people healing, less people using fountain etc.
I think thana was too strong before but its way too weak now to ever be chosen as a perk. Went form must have perk to sitting in the perk pool along with 100 other perks not being used. Maybe 4% per injured is more ideal. Not giving to much when a single one is injured but stacking up to 16% when four people are injured, but include heal times as well. it should add around 15 seconds to each gen, so a total of 60 seconds. if you keep it up. before it was 100 extra seconds.
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No good riddance, just play something else this perk was incredibly boring, I still played against 2 thana legions and it's still annoying, should be nerfed even harder
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Well it should have been nerfed more on Legion and Plague, and less on all the other killers. Which is kind of what the suggestion of OP would do.
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I... suggested nerfing the total numbers. Thana's current max total is 20. My suggestion would lower it to 16, which is a nerf.
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I think the proposal is fine but shouldn't work with no survivor injured.
It is Thanatophobia, fear of death, you should not have any fear if there is no death perception.
Wouldn't be better this way?
If one survivor is injured 10% reduction repair speed.
2% more for any other survivor injured.
Before 6.1.0 it was 5-10-15-20
With this change it will be 10-12-14-16
More convenient with 1, almost the same with 2, a little less with 3 and way less with 4.
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See the edit, as you're not the first to make the mistake of misunderstanding what I wrote.
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Well ok, by the way agree that thana should start strong and give less advantages if you manage to fully wound everyone.
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I like the idea, but having 7% penalty for only one injured survivor is kinda to much, it would be better if that 4% penalty required at least 2 injured survivor, so it end up like 3% - 10% - 13% - 16% , it should still require some effort from part of the killer to get the perk going, since having one survivor injured al the time is to easy, put the 4% in the base would make the perk too universal, it should still require that little extra set up
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I see. I still think 7% is a bit too high for one injured survivor tbh. I'd maybe do like, 6/10/13/15 or something similar. Obviously the numbers could be fine-tuned.
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7% is too high for 1 injured, it is incredibly easy to have 1 injured almost all game.
There are tons of suggestions like 2/6/12/20 that have been thrown around on the forums and elsewhere.
Honestly I am beginning to believe that the only way to guarantee BHVR doesn't do something is to have anyone suggest it on the forums, Reddit or Twitter.
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7% is barely anything; less than 7 seconds on a gen.
We can argue over the numbers but at least the concept is (hopefully) good.
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Yes 7% is less than determination.
I think community is overeacting about thana that is strong only in the situation where stacked upon other percentages AND the killer can easily wound people.
Thana was never an issue before because staying healthy was easy.
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7% on it's own would be fine against most killers in most scenarios, sure.
If we only had Thanatophobia to worry about it wouldn't be so bad. But when you Have a Legion or Plague with Thana, Pentimento, Dying Light and Gift of Pain and your repair speeds get stacked reduction 7% is absolutely massive.
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Or we just get rid of crutches that affect gen speed at all? It just makes killers lazy so that their bad plays are still be viable, and it frustrates survivors staring even longer at a progress bar.
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If you are not legion or plague keeping the survivors wounded is very hard!
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In that case...
Remove Exhaustion perks. They're just crutches that bail survivors out of bad situation that they put themselves in. It just frustrates killers needing to win a chase again
Remove anti slugging perks. They're crutches for survivor teams that go down too easily. It just frustrates killers needing to win the game again.
Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? They're all tools that one side uses that are neither inherently good nor bad.
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Just make it so you can't use thana on legion or plague. Then revert it to it's previous state.
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That is impossible.
We do not have perks that say "cannot use on X killer," nor should we ever. What? Make it proc on only basic attacks? Then its best user would be Nurse, and that's not a road we should be going down if Starstruck and Knock Out are any indicators.
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Whataboutism at its best.
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It will be still good on plague as if one cleanses she gwts her power. But it's not as useful on legion anymore thought.
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poppin in with an obligatory mention of my rework for thana which solves most of it's problems. i dont think this perk can live with a number's change.
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Plague is a killer who can keep survivors injured for around 50-75% percent of the game. That is 20% action speed penalty for more than half of the game. I don't think thanatophobia should be available for plague at least.
For legion you could just nerf it somewhat just so it's less oppressive or don't do anything.
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his version of the perk still makes it stronger on legion & plague because it is still a scaling perk based off injuries.
if you want it to not scale based off injures.... then you remove the scaling on injuries and put a flat penalty worth using. what posts like these are asking for is dev to change thanotophobia to flat 15% bonus with no conditions. now everyone gains same benefit for using the perk.
what i don't understand is that for longest time, the community has said that legion is one of weakest killer in the game and need changes... so they rework him to make him stronger at injuring survivors which is what his entire ability does and they buff his perk in mid-chapter only to obliterate it.
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Thana is a perk that, in concept, is made to punish the entire team for not healing. That's why it scales with injuries, and why it works so well on Plague/Legion, killers you don't heal against. It's a Nurse perk with her perks theme being that they relate to injuries/healing. As such, Thana will always be better on Legion/Plague. If you have it be a flat 15% for one person being injured, that's asinine as there's likely to be one person injured at any given time.
As for your other statement, Legion was not the worst killer in the game. Period. I don't care what Scott said. The entire belief that he was the worst killer was "he has no power to down survivors," which makes little sense given Wraith, Sadako, and Myers are effectively in the same boat (being exposed and being injured are effectively the same).
Reason Legion has been... let's say, reevaluated is that he's been buffed a lot directly and indirectly. The rework replaced his add-ons that ranged from decent to useless. Now, most of his add-ons are actually pretty good, give or take a couple. The rework also made his power a lot less clumsy, reducing his brutal fatigue while also improving his ability to chain hits in a frenzy, instead of constantly frenzying, canceling, frenzying, and so on. To top it off, you can no longer just "give" hits to Legion, because now, chaining hits has a consequence that if he gets 5, you go down.
But what's really helped Legion is that now he is effectively immune to Endurance. This means that DH, BT, and OtR are effectively useless against him. This is huge, as the two best anti-tunnel perks don't work, and exhaustion perks might as well be useless in a lot of cases (not all; but a handful). DH doesn't work, the others won't stop him from injuring you fast since he can still vault pallets, and even if you were already injured before you SB to a pallet, the chase time is still cut in half because you're still a one-shot that doesn't expire.
Thana was good on Legion, but it's not like Freddy with gen regression. Freddy and gen regression are like two pieces of a puzzle; you need them both to make something. Legion doesn't need Thana, even if he was/is perhaps its best user.
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If you have it be a flat 15% for one person being injured, that's asinine as there's likely to be one person injured at any given time.
nowhere in my post do I say that you need to be injured for bonus to apply. The perk I am suggesting is you gain 15% action penalty for equipping the perk. No strings attached.
Do I agree killer should get free generator slowdown for doing nothing? Of course not. The perk is suppose reward the killer for spreading injuries. that's why the perk doesn't grant big bonuses at 1 stack and is not that good if you tunnel single survivor out of the game as you will be permanent at 1 stack or facecamp hooks with 1 person injured on the hook. By chasing multiple survivors and spreading hooks, it rewards the killer for their successful chases and punishes survivors for not healing and rushing generator while injured. I mean iron will was like 4th most used perk and its part of genrushing while injured meta.
Can killer still camp hooks with it? Of course. if you injure entire team, you can cash in your injure pressure and try to convert it into 2nd or 3rd hooks. I mean as long as hooks regress, facecamp hooks and try to 2nd hook or 3rd hook a survivor will always be possible. I would argue this was one of legion's strongest selling points because he could injure entire team very early into the match, go after 1 survivor, down them and put them on a hook. If all 5 generator are incomplete and all 4 survivor are injured, you will not complete the entire objective while injured before the person on the hook dies. Sending single person injured will just lead them to get slugged on top of the hook and sending multiple survivors injured onto the hook will result in a lot of slugging pressure for the killer, though you may hook trade like this. This dynamic also exists for plague's sickness although it is very easy to heal with a fountain. I mean fountain were strongest med-kit in the game, 5 second to heal, now 8 seconds as it keeps getting nerfed from 3 to 5 to 8 seconds. They're still strongest med-kit in the game though in isolation disregarding certain very extreme perks combinations & item combinations.
I can go into more detail for why this gameplay dyanmic is not healthy game design considering the killer is winning games by standing-still at the hook and using automated functionalities of their power to win due to lack counter-play on sickness & legion feral frenzy but we'll skip that part.
With that being said, I don't think he is the worst killer in the game. He certainly isn't strong though. I don't think m1 killer with current loop design will ever be strong. This is why i said community and not "I" in the post. Scottjund is right that legion is not strong. It is easy to spread and he has no chase power so leading long chases is easy if the survivor is skilled at looping. Do survivors make an effort to spread out against legion? Well.you can look at your soloq games for that answer and i will say... somewhat. you need to group to heal, so its not exactly possible to stay split up 100% of the time and many generator in the game are located in the center of maps where co-op generators eases the completion. as a result, the aspect of split up is lose/lose aspect towards survivor gameplay(hello prove thyself). When it comes to looping legion, Don't even get me started on how many teammate still struggle to loop m1 killers on like 90% of survivor-sided maps where legion gets a down in first 30 seconds of the game. that is just another survivor learn to play issue that make legion a lot more viable then he is really suppose to be.
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nowhere in my post do I say that you need to be injured for bonus to apply. The perk I am suggesting is you gain 15% action penalty for equipping the perk. No strings attached.
Okay, I misunderstood. but that's because I couldn't believe the suggestion. No one should get a 15% slowdown for simply equipping a perk. A perk should never give value by sheer virtue of existing. It's the same issue people have with Deadlock; you will always get value even if you afk in a corner. It's unfair and uninteractive.
Next, you bring up camping hooks, and I do not understand. If Legion camps someone on hook, then heal at 5 gens, then heal and go for a save. Very simple, especially with boons/medkits being very common. Are you saying Legion's biggest selling point is that he could camp with Thana? That would be dumb, as you'd be better running Deadlock which has less counterplay, is more consistent, and works on all killers (such as Bubba).
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New Thana... now is only useful if you're Plague/Legion, keeping the entire team injured. I feel this misses the point. Thana at full power was too oppressive but Thana at partial power was too weak to justify using on most killers. This rework... only kept the oppressiveness on the two best users.
my post is referring to your post in regards to only being useful on two killers and larger more broad reply to posts saying that the perk was killed for everyone except these two killers. in truth its killed for every single killer including these two killers.
A perk should never give value by sheer virtue of existing. It's the same issue people have with Deadlock; you will always get value even if you afk in a corner. It's unfair and uninteractive.
Oh I completely agree. in general, gen blocking perks are designed for camping hooks which is why I dislike them to large degree. that's why i dislike corrupt intervention and whole premise of equipping a perk to get free value. Deadlock is also the same. automatic value for equipping perk...again used for camping. The worst offender of it is the Artist with dead man switch. A vast majority of the games playing against artist is having one person get hooked and Artist spamming crows at generators where you are forced to take off crows which blocks generator for 45 seconds, which is now nerfed to 30 seconds. We'll skip the whole grim embrace perk that nobody uses.
Unfortunately with all the perks related to leaving hook incentives nerfed, a common meta build for killer is deadlock+pain res+dms.
you bring up camping hooks, and I do not understand. If Legion camps someone on hook, then heal at 5 gens, then heal and go for a save. Very simple, especially with boons/medkits being very common.
Common conception is that you shouldn't heal against legion and I am explaining how the perk can be used for camping purposes to get free pressure. you know, the perk giving value by sheer virtue of existing. its not so easy to go for the save as isolated survivor in this situation because of killer playing the hook-grab game. If you don't know what this is about, you can watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk62Y_HnXMs scottjund video titled how to win the "grab game". To answer the question in your post, yes that is arguably his strongest strength. He certainly isn't going to be going for 12 hooks with his crap m1 gameplay. Deadlock can be countered by either 2 man/3 man generators such that the perk activates and blocks a random generator that has no progress. you can also work on multiple generators but leave the generator at 99% so the perk hits a pointless generator that you can just tap to finish it. Thano is way stronger for camping in this format because you cannot ignore its effects other than heal which is also indirectly generator slowdown.
the counter for thano legion is spread out so that feral chaining is hard and not going down to his m1 gameplay. Healing key moments with moderation. this applies to all killer that use thanatophobia. Its not overwhelming on any killer. Its only overwhelming if your survivor chase play is bad and your generator optimization is weak as a team. Most survivor dislike when their bad plays lead to losses which is why the perk is unlikely to be reconsidered.
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