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First Step To Remove Camping: Remove Hook Grabs
Hook grabs don't benefit the killer at all unless the survivors bum rush the hook. And honestly, with that amount of coordination and risk involved with just bum rushing toward a killer, I don't see why this mechanic should remain.
All it does is allow killers who don't use their power to facecamp to do so even better. And with the current changes, I don't see why we need it.
If we remove the Hook Grabs, this completely curtails any killer who facecamps from snowballing out of control with a hook grab. Meaning, even if they can still Facecamp, they won't be able to benefit from it besides a potential hook trade. Which, with a coordinated team or really just one smart survivor, can be the difference between beating a facecamping killer or not.
The fact remains, that as long as these tools remain in the killer's kits, it will only further encourage these boring and abusing 'tactics' which benefit nobody but the asshurt killer who can't play.
Comments
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You are not supposed to go for solo unhooks when the killer is right there, period. This change means that any healthy survivor with deadhard can solo bomb a hook at any time against a killer without a very fast down/instadown, and get the rescue without the killer being able to recover any pressure.
Camaraderie needs a UI change to notify other survivors when someone is running it.
Post edited by Rizzo on4 -
I've barely gotten any grabs since Dedicated Servers so i don't think grabs are why Face Camping works.
Let's say you get your wish, does that mean mean Buba is no longer face camping? He has insta down he doesn't need to grab.
Billy can insta down aswell, Clown can spam bottles and slow you down enough to the point where no unhook is safe even if he isn't face camping, simple camping works very well for Clown. Especially when the update was a triple buff for killers in terms of chasing potential. Slap STBFL on Clow, slap extra bottles and who's gonna try and save ? you're gonna need a two man rescue and it still plays into clowns favor cause he can still slow you all down so much that he will be getting multiple hits, which only means he's getting more STBFL stacks... Unlimited Tier 3 Myers can camp for free, GF can camp if he gets a good hook placement to where he can easily Mark survivors...
Hook grabbing isn't the reason camping is strong. Camping is strong cause rescuing is very risky. It should be risky but right now it's just too risky. And gens take longer now aswell so it's a bit of double punishment for survivors.
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Personal experience; I have won several games I had no right to win due to hook grabs.
It happens. And yes while a Bubba can face camp that's moreso a character design issue than a camping one.
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One could argue that killers aren't supposed to just sit at the hook and camp. If a survivor gets the rescue and gets away with Dead Hard, they earned that rescue. Killers who camp hooks have a tendency to want the grab instead of taking a trade.
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Grabs are more powerful but less reliable. You'll only opt for a Grab if you failed to see the Rescuer aproaching or you are very confident in your ability to get the grab but even then you're at a 50/50.
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You can't remove hook grabs. That would be the dumbest thing they could possibly do.
If they did get rid of hook grabs they better take flashlights with it.
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So if it's a case of character design then you're saying it's not a hook grab problem. GF can go on a corner and stalk for the rescuer. Tier 3 Myers can just stay there and doesn't need to hok grab either, he'll 1 shot down. Same thing with a 99% Tier2 Myers, he'll tap power and Lunge at rescuer.
If you're a Nurse or Dredge or Sadako you can use Make your Choice and still get a 1 shot down on the rescuer.
All i'm saying is there's plenty of scenarios where Camping isn't happening because of the possibility of Hook Grabs which at least to me invalidates any reason to remove Hook Grabs. People will Camp because it's an effective strategy that requires low effort. Camping is a strong deterrent against saves and Hook grabs just happen to be a possible outcome should that double rewards camping.
To me a better solution would be to bring the DS stun back to 5 seconds, DS would spike in use again and help with tunneling. As for Camping you need to just slowdown the Hook timer for the Hooked Survivor or completly pause it if the killer is within 16 meters for example.
Right now killers have enough of a boost to warrant not camping and not tunneling. Why there's so much tunneling and Camping? Because it's been made easier because of a massive Oversight in BHVR's part.
I'm not one to camp or tunnel because it's so boring for me, if a guy has about 10 to 15 seconds on Hook timer? then sure why not camp him but fully camping a guy from first hook to death? Nah no thx i wanna PLAY THE GAME. If i see an unhooked Survivor doing something he shouldn't and i can get a second hook? Yeah sure i will it's a freebie being thrown at me but i won't tunnel at 5 gens unless i'm playing Pyramid Head and i have you Tormented on Second Hook, in that case i'm just playing the killer according to his power. If i let that guy go and i send someone else to a Cage i lose Torment on the guy i sent to cage because i used torment to send him to cage and i can lose Torment on the moriable guy if that guy rescues the survivor in Cage so yeah as Pyramid Head you're obviously going to want to use Torment Mori even if it means you have to tunnel that 1 survivor.
Same thing if you're playing Sadako and someone reaches 7 stacks of Condmned, they become your priority, in that scenario yeah you might even be tunneling someone.
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Killers don't camp because of hook grabs; they camp because it's an effective strategy. Hook grabs make camping easier, which is why it would be better to make it so only an injured survivor can be grabbed. This would make it consistent with vault grabs, while also making camping a little bit weaker since the killer will have to opt for a trade instead of having hook standoffs.
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Great idea, just encourage tunnelling by making sure survivors can farm unhooks off their teammates right on the killer's face.
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They camp because the bad map design actively punishes going on chases and BHVR has nerfed the perks that encouraged them to move away from hook (ruin, bbq, pop, etc). Removing more power from the killer is only going to compound to the issue, not fix it.
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Trade offer: killers lose the ability to grab survivors when they're unhooking, but survivors can't unhook if the killer is nearby
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They camp because they can. It's as simple as that. Killers don't need a reason to camp and tunnel, as evidenced by the patch. Removing hook grabs would be removing power from the killer.
Making hook grabs only possible on injured survivors would encourage killers to go for trades, which removes the silly hook standoffs where a survivor wants the rescue, but the killer refuses to allow them to and it's a standoff to see which side makes the commitment. It's a change that would ultimately benefit both killers and survivors.
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Flashlights don't impact your ability to play the game. Camping impacts one person's ability to play the game. The person being camped cannot play the game in any meaningful way. They wait, on a hook, hitting skill checks to avoid dying. Outside of that, they cannot interact with the game
A flashlight blinds you and hinders your chances of winning, but otherwise does nothing to impact your ability to play the game.
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You are right that they don't need to justify doing their objectives efficiently, but it is the case that they simply do not have the option to go for spreading hooks and going for chases while still having a shot to win due to the bad map design. Removing even more power from the killer will simply encourage the killers to avoid going for hooks and chases even more. What this patch has proven beyond all doubt is that nerfing perks that encourage the killers not to camp leads to camping, which should kind of be a given but w/e.
If you have an issue with camping then be like me and push for a buffs to perks like Pop, Ruin, BBW, not for removing even more power from killers.
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Yes, lets remove the killers ability to punish hook bombing and attempted farming. Why don't we just get rid of their ability to break pallets and use their powers too?
This needs its root issue fixed, the fact Survivors can just swarm a hook and guarantee a rescue is what causes a lot of what is considered "camping." If survivors stopped rushing hook, killers would camp less since survivors would just do gens instead. Of course there are facecampers who do need to be removed, but survivors need a way to give killers more reason to leave hook.
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Taking hook grabs away gives survivors a free unhook attempt. I have had survivors run up and try to unhook someone I JUST hooked. They should pay for that stupidity, not be given a shield. Also not every loss is a tunnel, a lot of people (not saying you) cry tunnel or camp when there was none.
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In that particular case, you punish the stupidity by downing the unhooked survivor. Basekit BT is 5 seconds. Pre-patch, killers would wait out the entire duration of BT just to punish unsafe rescues.
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To me, the best punishment for someone running right up to you to try and unhook right after you hook is to grab them. That way they don't get the unhook credit, their teammate can as I make my way to the next hook. Seems fair to me. There will always be those that abuse grab but the rest of us shouldn't pay for that.
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Unfortunately, changing hook grabs is one of the few solutions there is to deal with the issue of camping.
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I don't like this idea. I think hook grabs are healthy for the game. Good killer mostly wins those against single survs and looses otherwise.
The only problem to this is facecamping. And I like my solution to that one more :) https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/339957/fair-anticamp
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If survivors stopped rushing hook, killers would camp less since survivors would just do gens instead.
"If gens didn't fly so fast, killers wouldn't camp/tunnel", "If chases were shorter, killers wouldn't camp/tunnel", "If maps were smaller, killers wouldn't camp/tunnel", the list just goes on.
If this patch has proved anything, it's that killers don't need a reason to camp or tunnel. They'll do it simply because they can.
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Ahkctually we would need to change vault grabs to work on healthy survs to make them consistent with gen, unhook and locker grabs. the vaults are the odd-one-out.😉
Edit: as for your point of Killers tunneling despite the changes, you're right. But every player is free to choose their targets in this game. Survivors can freely go for 1x 90charges on one single gen instead of splitting that effort on 3, to compare.
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There are plenty of times you have to unhook with the killer right there. Please raise mmr before commenting.
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It would be nice to know what the definition of camping is in this scenario because face camping isn't the only form of camping. There's also proxy camping which sometimes can't be helped, which also bring up another problem called context. If survivors are making stupid mistakes and being very altruistic, can't the killer punish them for that?
If I have a survivor on hook in endgame and I'm just an M1 Sadako or Wraith, am I suppose to just walk off to the exit gate or the other end of the map despite having zero tools to down an entire team who's body blocking and dead hard blocking their unhooked teammate all the way to gate?
Also I do mean just endgame. Killers have zero reason to camp early to mid game.
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Everyone cries camping, but this also encourages bad survivors who farm their team. With new BT, okay. I count five seconds and down you if you are stupid enough to unhook in my face. It's not camping if I can literally see you right there when I hook, or if you run right up to the hook while I am chasing you. Yeah, this somewhat helps against camping, but I have had just as many issues with stupid people unhooking me near a killer immediately or bringing the killer too me, and this empowers those people. A multi-person hook save is very possible, even against a camping killer besides Bubba.
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There is no solution to camping in a FOUR vs one game. There will always be those that camp. I do not believe people get camped all day long. I am a killer main but I have played a ton of survivor the last year with friends. We get camped but it's once in a blue moon or at one gen left or endgame which we understand. What is the killer to do at that point?
It's a game and I think a lot of people just can't move on after a loss. They need to complain and call everything a tunnel or camp. I'm done with this though, I've had my say. If they take hook grabs away though it will be total bs.
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On one hand I actually agree to some extent - It's the same issue as the hatch.
On the other hand - Some killer powers just immediately down - In which case I feel the solution is to first change the powers to not completely enable hook camping.
An example of a suggestion I've mentioned - Make Bubba's power only build up charges once you engage in chases which would force Bubba to leave hook - Otherwise the power would slowly deplete its charges while camping leaving you with no power to use when a survivor eventually comes to unhook.
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Well... no. They do that because it is beneficial to them and time efficient.
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Until it's not.
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I wish they would remove hook grabs I see my teammates getting grabbed more often with killers just standing at the hook at 5 to 4 gens waiting for a grab instead of a trade. Not sure why some killers just want to 1 hook everyone.
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correction, it wont make them opt but "force" to go fot the other person, wich pretty much sounds like survivor rule book of "you cant atack an unhooked its the survivor law!". I always find amusing how people try to justify every single nerf and impose as much rules againts the killers because "it kils my survivor fun" but rarely they come with any counter balance againts the many things survivors can, do and encourage others to do regardless of how scummy, anoying or plain out unfun for the killer side is.
Now on regards of the topic, fine, lets take out hook grabs, in exchange i expect that:
1.- survivors are punished with +10 seconds more acumilative generator time if they stay on the same generator more than 20 seconds, because clearly thats generator campiing
2.- survivors will have to spend at least 5 seconds on a new generator that has been recently kicked just to be allowed to start gaining any benefit on said generator, after all just being allowed to literally tap the generator wich presents no risk, no punishment and virtually only benefits its "unfun" for the killers who have to manage many generators all at once.
3,. if 2 or more survivors are working on the same generator the moment they finish all of them are blocked from working on a new generator for for 60 seconds, this time dissapears if they are hit by the killer. Its just fair after all, there should be some kind of trade for rushing a generator, if not its clearly rushing and unfun for the killer
i could go on and on, but seriously, survivors need to stop tinking they are the only ones playing the game, they need to stop tinking killers need to adere to a ridiculous survivor rule book and understand that both sides have plenty of anoying/unfun things to the other side, either deal with it or also start balancing things out for both sides and not only the survivor side
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We moved away from double window shack & stuff, from infinite loops & infinite vaulting, reduced number of pallets substantially, burning nurse is almost impossible now, trapper's traps can't be sabotaged, hooks are no longer pemanently sabotaged and many many many unfun things for killer (do you remeber old hatch and key?). Just recently we moved to such a niche inconveniences as removing locker flash saves (I agree it was unfair, but how often if ever it happened to you, that 2 survs locker saved each other against you?).
And yet camping and tunneling is in the game for 6 years now. Even worse - tunneling is at it's highest usage it has ever been.
I think it's finally time to do something for survivors for a change. The alternative is to revert all the unfun&unfair aspects of the game that got fixed for killer's benefit. Because it's very clear now killers will not be happy until survivors are not perkless&itemless in 1 flat 16x16m room without any obstacles but those 7 generators that now take 300s each.
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To be honest, hook grabs should be not removed entirely and instead just straight up give the killer what he wants. If you want your teammates saves and you are in front of the hook with the killer near; you are Sacrifice a hook state by allow him to grab you period; dedicated server makes grabs unreliable and hard to successfully land as the Survivors can "spam" the unhook button to force the killer to hit and they need to recover and wait out your unhooking. If you are on death hook, last Survivor, or simply dealing with a face camping strong killer like bubba; I wouldn't chance it.
Also, Removing unhooking will not stop the camping problem entirely; as killer's main objective is to kill, not hook as many. Camping is a very strong and powerful means to secure a kill, whatever any players hate or not. If you want camping to be punished, how about rewarding killer by giving them free hooks, grabs, and better chase potional/slowdown; instead of nerfing Camping as killer's will still do it.
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It's not the right step because that just let's survivors get even more safe unhooks even when they are not safe. Would just force a trade when the survivor is committing a bad play, camping aside. Unhooking should be punishable.
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it still is. 1st punishment if you unhook wrongly, you will end on hook yourself 2nd punishment if you are caught going to hook, you will not even unhook.
Bad plays will be punished even after the change. But as of right now, bad play (being afk in front of the hook) is rewarded with 1 extra hook without loosing camped person. That's actually not fair and promotes bad play.
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If the survivor leads the killer to the hooked survivor and goes or a hook or a starts a stand off, that is on the survivor for doing so.
A bad play that gets punished.
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The flaw with your comparison is you cited specific gameplay mechanics with playstyles.
Being able to Dead Hard over a Trapper trap was fixed with a line of code.
You can't just undo a Killer deciding he wants that Jane out of the game immediately.
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and yet I see this MUCH MUCH MUCH less then killer just deciding to camp (and I mean - it's not rare occurance, but most of killers now camp or at least proxy camp - meaning they forego watching their gens, because they have someone on hook). And even if survivor leads the killer to hook. That is still 1 down without any chase. So still a win for killer
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People are still going to camp even with buffs to perks like those (which really aren't needed compared to some other perks)
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It's not survivor rulebook. There's nothing an unhooked survivor can do to stop a killer from just tunneling them out of the game for no reason. Your entire argument and list of expectations is bad, because what you're saying is that you don't want to defend generators. You want to play a simulator where you're the killer and the survivors deaths are inevitable. There is no escape. No doing generators. Just running until you kill them.
If you don't play both sides, then you'll never understand why hook grabs on healthy survivors aren't good for the game. It just promotes camping, hook standoffs and tunneling.
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Or just use my suggestion that punishes face campers and heavy tunnelers by extending the sacrifice time for those survivors. It even compensates face camped victims.
In short :
- - When a survivor is unhooked , they gain 60-80s reassurance protection. If they are hooked again within that time frame , their reassurance will activate and last 30s before normal sacrifice continues. This way you can still tunnel a person but it will be slower , you will either have to wait for a minute before you hook them again or just accept their sacrifice lasting 30s longer each stage as you persist on the same survivor for some reason . Which means instead of 2m you get 3m for a tunneled survivor to be sacrificed with 3 hooks. Enough to discourage the meta of making the game 3v1 quickly.
- - In case of face camping it is similar. When you hook a survivor the sacrifice will progress normally. Once they hit stage 2 , if you did not hook anyone else they get reassurance for 30s. If you hook someone during that 30s , it is disabled immediately and sacrifice resumes normally. If a survivor reaches death point on the hook and this is their first hook still and you did not hook anyone this whole time , they get another reassurance of 30s with same rules as above. This way someone who face camps will have to camp 1 minute longer in total which in turn will give the rest of the survivors more time on gens to punish face camping killer. Instead up to 3gens , survivors could make it 4 gens done. It will discourage face camping as the killer will no longer end up with advantage when face camped survivor dies.
- - Survivors who were face camped receive no pip loss and some blood-points as long as they died on their first hook , made no self unhook attempts , and had no more then 2 missed tentacle strikes. In short they are compensated if they don't hook suicide.
- Now , if you play as a killer normally , you will not even notice these changes. They will barely if ever happen. Maybe if you hook someone , they get unhooked and run to you for some idiotic reason and you hook them right away again , the will get 30s reassurance. But a bad player like that will end up on stage 2 hook right away and present no threat to the killer. It only damages the survivor team instead. Killers decide who to hook. Even if swf squad wishes to abuse this , you decide who to chase, who to hook. If they get someone to taunt you to be hook again , leave them be , they are not doing the gens so they are useless to the team. Hook those who repair.
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just-
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hook grabs being removed would make survivors bumrushing hooks with dead hard broken-
that's. a really bad suggestion.
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Wdym? There's hardly any time to use DH. Also you can wait it out.
Maybe you should play also some survivor and enjoy hardcore campers that afk whole game and still win.
Oh wait. You will not. Because survivor (soloQ) is now way too frustrating and who would want to have afk game after stomp after another tunnel game after getting one baby killer (so that game can check out you have also wins even if it was 0 fun) after another camp and tunnel?
Yeah current situation is "fine" for killers only
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if you're getting afk camped your teammates can do three gens in that time. and removing hook grabs would make really risky plays impossible for non instadown killers to punish. just dont unhook directly in front of killer lol
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you can fullly facecamp 2 people until all gens are done. Then you can have NOED. 3K very cheaply considering your tactics. Sure it can backfire, but only if someone brings reassurence AND is able to apply it.
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You've made the mistake of assuming it's about winning or losing. The person on the hook hasn't had fun, the killer hasn't had fun and the remaining survivors haven't had fun either.
Hook grabs on healthy survivors should be removed. It would promote actually accepting trades as killer, prompt survivors to play better to avoid trading, and simultaneously make the game more fun and engaging for everyone.
This would also have to be done in addition to a balance overhaul that promotes going for hooks over kills, but that's a separate topic.
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