The Players must understand and accept, that BHVR cannot prevent tunneling and camping
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Killers that camp/tunnel don't care about BP
Exactly
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So you think new people actually LIKE to camp and tunnel? Did it ever occur to you that maybe they are just new and they don't know any better? Like all of us were at some point?
As for the people who like to camp and tunnel that aren't in the "new" category. Which you seem to be in... What about them? They are the ones who make those experiences unfun.
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I honestly don't get the "tunneling/camping bad at 5 gens". Like just because it says 5 gens left, doesn't mean there's 5 gens worth of progress remaining. That can easily become 3 or 4 gens left.
I don't think the devs should increase repair speeds for the killer being too close to the hook. And relatedly I don't think the hook timer should slow down being too close to the hook either. Those mechanics are going to need exceptions and it's one of those things that survivors will abuse.
Something I ran into that should be changed in some way is that while it's not possible to completely block an unhook, killers can body block a single survivor trying to unhook. Meaning without coordination, a survivor on hook can just die because the killer is literally preventing the unhook. Hooks became radial due to an issue with killers being able to block the only unhook point so I think a similiar change needs to happen so a killer can't body block the unhook prompt. Along with no grabs this would at least gives survivors the ability to hook trade unless they mess up.
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I have over 7500 hours of DBD experience and I can tell you that I am not a constant tunneler or camper as you portray me here. But I can assure you that camping or tunneling someone to death is fun sometimes and you can limit that but you should not remove it from the game.
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Buddy, I am not portraying you as anything. I think you have done a good enough job to portray yourself how you want to be perceived as.
I simply have no reason to believe that someone who cares this much about Camping and Tunneling wouldn't already be doing it themselves. If you weren't doing it, then it shouldn't affect you, right?
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"As for the people who like to camp and tunnel that aren't in the "new" category. Which you seem to be in... What about them? They are the ones who make those experiences unfun."
Thats not true. You portray me as a camper and a tunneler and I won't let that sit with me. Sry
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Same type of thing happens in solo q quite regularly. When the killer doesn't outright camp/tunnel at 5 gens, he will play fairly until he notices a hint of being outplayed and then will camp/tunnel/slug and usually get a 3k or 4k, if he didnt do that he'd prolly get no kills. Should he do this, no. There are plenty of skilled killers who regularly get 2-4ks vs solo q without doing this.
Counter argument: run kindred, kinship, OTR, bt etc. My issue with this is just creates the same problem as before, being forced to run perks to have to deal with camping/tunneling/slugging. This isn't "shaking up" the meta, the meta will always be perks that counter tunneling/camping/slugging until it's properly fixed.
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This topic has become an amusing read, at least :)
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Let me remind you, you created an entire thread telling people to "accept" Camping and Tunneling in it's current form. You have a problem with people suggesting other ideas to bring the game more current to 2022, because you seem to be stuck on "It's been this way since 2016", when in fact many things that were, no longer are.
Ever heard of the phrase "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck?"
I am not portraying you as anything, but if you are telling me that you don't camp and tunnel all while you are telling people to just accept as if it's enough proof to prove you aren't doing it. Then sorry to say but that makes you sus in my book.
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it´s interesting 😁
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Given the reaction to the current patch and reading what some people are now saying in this topic, it certainly is.
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You have not in the least understood anything of what I want to say with my contribution here. I made this post primarily because i keep reading from various users that camping and tunneling should be removed. (Because the players involved probably don't like it, what else) Many are not even aware that it is part of the game, what is there not to understand? Is it that difficult?
I don't have a problem with people making suggestions, on the contrary, I even said myself that BHVR will certainly create many ways to limit or make camping and tunneling less effective and that's a good thing!
But, I can also tell you from my own experience that I know many players who like to tunnel and camp from time to time because it's fun and because the game allows it. As a killer, I need to be able to make my own decisions because I'm playing killer, not butler for survivors.
I would like to say more, but not now because I have to work tomorrow.
Have a nice evening. Here in Germany it is already late
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How do you remove it? Seriously.
Remove Tunnelling? Would you make a survivor unhookable until you hook another survivor? Or just flat out invulnerable? So that they can do whatever the hell they want right in front of the killer with no consequence?
How do you remove camping? Make a zone around the hook that the killer can't enter or is powerless? So a safe zone, where survivors are invulnerable? Or teleporting hooks? So the killer physically can't secure a kill even if they try? The killer, cant kill?
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They want every action to have risk, every action to be a 'game' that the survivors and killers play with each other. This includes camping, where a survivor has to outplay the killer to secure the unhook.
Likewise, they want killers to have the option to camp, to provide that risk for survivors. As with everything the killer does, it's a cost-benefit, a matter of focusing your attention in one area and away from another. That's the trade off, you camp the hook, but you lose your gen pressure.
Now they can (and should) balance that cost-benefit ratio, and I agree it could be more in the survivors favour to disincentivise camping*. But the option to make that choice, to weight up that cost-benefit, is always going to be in the game, it's always going to be valid, whichever way the killer decides. If that means the killer camps, then the killer camps, and that's a valid choice.
What they don't want is for one side to have a way to absolutely deny an action for the other side. That's why facecamping was removed, so that killers couldn't literally prevent anyone from unhooking, that's why Pig was reworked, so that she couldn't camp a jigsaw box and prevent a survivor getting their trap off. To want to 'prevent' camping or tunnelling is exactly what they want to avoid, an absolute denial of an action.
*Ironically, they've just nerfed a load of great anti-camping perks. BBQ, Ruin, Pain Res, Pop. They all provided the killer with a greater benefit to leaving the hook, they were healthy perks, but they were nerfed because they were meta.
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Agreed but it’s cool survivors finally have a perk that lets them fight back against it super healthy addition to the game
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Prevent? Technically they could but we know they won't.
Discourage? They most definitely should. There should be bloodpoint penalty for hard-tunneling (as in the first 3 hooks go to the same survivor) while there are still 4 or 5 generators left. Same goes for camping. I don't think this'll ever happen either.
As a cure for camping they want to sell us Reassurance for $11.99. That's their solution.
I bet Reassurance won't show up in the Shrine of Secrets until 2025 at the absolute earliest.
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Ok, but then let's stop pretending it was because of Dead Hard or X, Y, Z perk. If it's a play style you enjoy. But BHVR should not enable it which is what they have done in abundance in the recent patch; ironically in an effort to discourage it
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I almost wrote essay to you how camping causes you to not earn bp but actually it's usually increases your odds to win if you do it at right times. I read you said should.
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So before I close my eyes and go into the land of dreams
Good night
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That's great.
How do you outplay the Bubba sitting in front of someone on the hook?
Oh yeah, you don't. You let him get his Kill because there's not a damn thing you can do.
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No, the devs can stop camping and tunneling; they just choose not to
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There is one basic flaw in this game that will cause killers to seek to camp or tunnel as long as it exists... Permadeath.
Once you are dead, you don't come back - no respawns. That = less people to keep track of.
So unless the devs are willing to greatly increase a killer's power so respawns can be in the game, this isn't going to change. Best they can do is discourage it.
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Funny you say that because I've done that a few times. It can take two survivors to pull it off, but any window of time the killer is distracted could be used to make the unhook, and it is possible to dodge the chainsaw, meanwhile the unhooked survivor speeds away on a wave of Borrowed Time.
Nevertheless, this is a problem with one or two killers in particular, and I'd totally be on board with some kind of fix exclusive to Billy/Bubba.
On the other hand, this can simply be seen as the killer using their power in an effective way, and until BHVR make that fix, it's a valid tactic. The fact that it's not fun for the survivor isn't the problem, unless it leads of player retention issues and BHVR deem it a problem, but that's extreme and very unlikely, I rarely see Bubba myself. Besides, there are many survivor tactics that aren't fun for the killer either.
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This would require either completely redesigning the basic format of the game (why not just create a new game, DBD2?) or it would need to be met with a similar mechanic on the other side, resetting completed generators.
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Their recent changes have been efforts to make them less appealing strategies so they can make them unappealing but not flat out remove them
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They should just be nerfed to a point where they almost guarantee a solid loss. Camping should not get you anything more than a 1K, and tunnelling should be less efficient than spreading hooks.
Not gonna happen though. Forum killers want these tactics to stay powerful.
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And that my friend, is called "game design" this game is designe to do that.
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*slugging intensifies*
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It’s not that we want camping to be powerful, it’s hard to fix camping without making it so OP for survivors. Killers should camp if they need a kill like if it’s at endgame.
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There’s a few ways to deal with it depending on how hard core you wanted to remove it.
Most drastically? You could even remove it completely at the cost of temporary game balance by making it so hooking a survivor teleports them to another far away hook similar to Pyramid Head. There’s also have no notification of where the survivor is and no notification for being unhooked so you’d have to pay attention.
Basement would also be abolished in this consequence. I mean technically it would still be possible to tunnel or camp but that’d be more on the survivors allowing it if the killer is able to find their victim without the survivors unhooking them. Obviously such a solution would have far reaching effects and certain killers would be a lot weaker but it is a theoretical way you could nuke this problem from orbit.
Less drastically you could simply remove the incentive for camping by reducing hook progress the closer the killer is, even going as far down to 0. Does nothing against tunnelling though. I’ve read other ideas too which are good or at least worth trying.
Ultimately I think players care little what is done just something more then band aid fixes or forced perk slots being used which hinders play styles because you ‘must’ use x perk or risk being tunnelled. Even if there is an extended PTB where very experimental solutions are tried.
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err... Crowman makes a very valid point. You can throw your hands up and choose to ignore it Pulsar but...
The mechanics of DBD involve non-participation as one of the core threats you face as survivor. This is represented via being slugged or being on hook. (The other core threat is elimination via death).
You are still actively in game but unable to progress the objective and are reliant on your team mates to save you. You're not being prevented from playing while hanging on hook you are still playing, is kinda the point.
What makes DBD interesting is the threat of non-participation is very real, making it a genuine threat to avoid.
Same for being eliminated, if you die you are out, you don't endlessly respawn after a timer you are just out.
These two elements make trying to escape in DBD a rather visceral experience that captures the essence of survival horror, slasher flick, really well.
Are killers able to leverage these mechanics too much by directly defending a hook AKA face camping? That's a different discussion.
But to say camping is bad get rid of it because you can't participate, is just blind to the very core mechanics that make up DBD and make it kinda great.
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Cool
So why did they remove old facecamping? It's functionally the same thing as what you are describing.
And why can't we stop Bubba's from absolutely eliminating one person from playing.
Post edited by Pulsar on0 -
I think there are some ways to reduce it. What about making basekit mechanics that varies in effect based on different stages of the game? It can be based on the number of gens and maybe on the number of hooks.
Early game, middle game, and endgame.
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I covered this in a post you replied to.
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I think what he means to say is that bhvr doesn't seem capable to create an effective anti-tunnel/camping mechanic that isn't massively exploitable
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So Bubba standing in front of a hooked Survivor isn't denying the other side an action?
You could still save against facecamping in 2016 lmao just bait them away.
A joke.
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You are right in that BHVR doesn't control your decision to camp or tunnel. What they can do is balance the game so that your decision to so is the worst one to choose if you actually want to win.
BHVR needs to make going for 12 hooks not just viable, but the most effective way to win. Most killers don't want to tunnel just to be mean, they do it because they want to win. If the game was balanced in a way that going for 12 hooks was majorly better at getting a win than camping, I guarantee that most camping/tunneling would stop.
And the few that do still camp/tunnel would be guaranteed to lose nearly every time.
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I agree.
What about the people who do it solely to ruin other people's games?
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My last sentence was, in this hypothetical scenario, that those people would lose everytime. Because if 12 hooks was viable, then camping and tunneling can be adjusted.
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I understand that, but why would losing matter to people who do it purely out of spite for the other side?
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You are imagining Tunnelling and Camping as its current state in the game. In this hypothetical scenario it might be actually become impossible to camp hooks and tunnel off hooks. Again, if 12 hooking become the best way to win, then there is nothing stopping the devs from going nuclear on camping and tunnelling.
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Because old face camping prevented even saves by team mates. It was basically body blocking someone on hook. Functionally its completely different to the face camping of today. Thanks to rotational unhooks you can now save against it.
Why they changed that should be obvious, so its not much of a rebuttal.
As for ol leatherface, its completely possible to hook save against him just very hard. Again different from old face camping which was you can't unhook someone if the killer stands here. So again not much of a rebuttal.
I get that you are against face camping and its not the most interactive of play but its a complete fallacy to argue that you aren't playing just because you are on a hook, when hanging on hook is part of survivor game play.
Cherry picking the most extreme case of this mechanics use and making it the sole point on why it should be removed is a rather weak argument for change.
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I guess only survs are free to choose a target and rush it down 0-90c.
I'm not gonna go into camping but complaining about tunneling is weird.
We shouldnt restrict who killers are allowed to target.
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That does sound ideal, doesn't it.
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Yeah, but any discussion about it will be met with 'just learn to play', 'anti-camp was tried once, six years ago, therefor it can never work', or dead silence.
Any brainstorming about a solution gets shut down. So I'm not really buying the idea that forum killers don't want camping to stay powerful.
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if this is going live R.I.P camping
you only need 2 people :) pooooor bubba^^
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What do you mean? The devs made no real attempt to fix tunnelling over the years and openly supported it. They only took an issue now, because its become so bad that its actively ruining the game. And they are dragging their feet as much as possible because they don't want to upset killers. They have made no attempt to seriously fix tunnelling and everyone just goes "it can't be fixed." Maybe you're right, but nobody knows that because it has never been tired.
Literally that Simpsons line
"We've tired nothing and we're all out of ideas."
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12-hooking being the best strategy is always going to be skill-dependent. Since last patch, killers got a massive collection of buffs and the camping/tunnelling issue didn't budge, I'm not keen on negotiating more killer buffs until people are ready to let go of camping/tunnelling.
So let's reverse it. First go nuclear on camping/tunnelling, and 12-hooking becomes the most reliable way to win.
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To be fair the perk also does that against really good face camping killers ie bubba and if it's a basement bubba who doesn't care about winning that much and only wants to get a kill on the basement hook the game could last forever for the person on hook if a swfs with the perk who want to "troll" the killer and waste as much time as possible
Legit had a match on the swamp before where 3 survivors stopped doing gens and played the hiding game which I won because I acted afk and proceedded to down two of them as they all decided to come to me and dance around thinking I wouldn't do anything
And inb4 someone accuses me of camping ok that match I had 7 hooks and it was on a Map I despise with a burning passion
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A contributing factor is that although killers got general buffs, their primary anti-camping perks got nerfed.
BBQ, Ruin, Pain Res and Pop, all either give incentive to leave the hook and/or require you to leave the hook to get value out of them.
While it's not the only thing needed, we do need more perks that incentivise leaving the hook, as they skew the cost-benefit equation away from camping.
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