Shattered Hope should be base kit
Its so dumb that boons totems aren't destroyed when stepped on. Shattered Hope should be base kit, even if it takes a little longer. Survivors should not be able to reboon the same totem over and over again. Honestly boon totems where the worst addition to this game outside of instant teleport pallets back in the day. They are just super easy mode self care and unbreakble. It heals just as well as old self-care but BHVR won't nerf it more? I call BS. Mostly this is a rant but I see boon totems in nearly every game and I am sick and tired of them. Or reduce them to a certain amount of uses a game, like 2.
Comments
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I disagree with a lot of your points here, but I do agree with the main argument.
If Hexes are gone forever once they are destroyed, so should Boons.
It is only fair.
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I don't think so. Despite both being based on totem there are noticeable differences between the two that makes them not comparable.
In fact I would argue most hexes are more stronger then most of the boons outside circle of healing
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Let's say we do limit the number of times you can bless a boon, Are you going to buff the other Boons to be good? Because out of all of them only circle of healing is s teir. Shadowstep is okay but a bit situational and Exponential and Dark Theory are just bad.
If you make changes but not buff the others then boons would not be worth taking at all which is bad.
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I disagree if survivors can't have kindred or ds as basekit killers shouldn't be allowed to have shatter as base kit
Killers also have an easier time finding boons than survivors finding hex. If we have to use 1 to 3 perks to find a hex or a map you can use a perk to perma remove boons especially if you are using a pentamento build
Post edited by Jeromy137 on6 -
Well, some Hexes are similar to the other Boons in strength. There is that to consider.
Ruin has always been possible to break permanently, so has Third Seal.
The same should be true to COH and other boons.
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Boons are both less powerful than hexes, and there's no reason to directly compare them in an asymmetrical game like this.
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Depends on the Boon.
"you can use a perk to perma remove boobs"
Why the hell would you do that?
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Yeah, but survs can put the same boon on another dull totem, killers can't (well Undying can once, and that takes up an extra perk slot) I think that's enough to balance it out.
Boons should be permanently breakable.
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Lol auto correct doesn't like the word boons for me
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Meh, I justthink we should have a choice. As a noed enjoyer I need a Dull totem
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Well yeah survivor perks better not be as strong as a killer perk they get 16 of them
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Most boons aren't strong enough to warrant shattered hope being base kit
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Boons aren't even that strong, especially compared to Hex perks. Shattered hope doesn't need to be basekit.
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Please do it.
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I disagree with this premise, there’s no reason Hexes and Boons need to use the same systems. They just need to make sure Boons are balanced with the idea of being resettable in mind and Hexes are balanced with the idea they can be permanently destroyed in mind. And generally speaking that’s already the case with Boons, most of the Boons are perfectly fine as is. Likewise most of the Hexes get enough value before they’re taken out to be worthwhile, or in the case of Devour Hope are high risk high reward perks that carry such large value if left unchecked they are still worth running.
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Boons take a long time to bless a totem and a 3 seconds to put it out.
Sometimes I have to choose when the best time is to bless a boon:
Do I unhook a survivor first or boon to have the CoH buff and shadowstep to get away?
Should I finish repairing the gen that's regressing or bless a totem.
OKay I blessed the totem and crunch, killer put it out... that was a waste of time, as no value was achieved.
Plus it takes light years to bless a hex totem, in that time I can be a smidge away from completing the blessing only to get grabbed. And you best believe I stay on the totem to hopefully take out the hex, only to once again get hooked and all progress is lost.
Searching for totems wastes a good amount of time, as well. Being a boon build you realize how much time it takes to play that layer of the game.
It's very balanced.
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These days, Hexes are weaker than boons.
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Undying and Pentimento exist, it's not like hexes are really ever gone after one cleanse. They're often paired with some way to recur them at least once in my games, either undying or pentimento. If boons are to have that limit then undying and pentimento would also need to be brought into check if you believe they should behave the same.
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If there's anything balanced in this game it's Boon Totems. The whole playstyle around it both for Survivor and Killer actually makes sense and it's something else other than repairing/kicking gens.
Or are you just trying to buff Pentimento? Because it is already strong as it is.
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Boons were an attempt to flesh out a secondary objective in the game, and they're still relatively in their infancy. It's my thinking that they're there to move more traditionally strong perks into gameplay so that players have to work a bit more to get those benefits, as well as add some interesting affects to the game.
If they're destroyed as basekit, people will bring them much less often, because not only would they take effort to do, but the killers would be alerted to where they were, just stomp five times and all the chances for boons are gone. That's quite a lot of time wasted on the survivor's part.
I know things sometimes look like they don't take any effort to do when you're not playing that side, but that's very often not the case.
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It seems the community does not think it that way.
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But gey compensated with hexes are gone forever and you can boon another elsewere
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I just want it to be an option. You can snuff a totem instantly or you can spend several seconds to break it forever. Then buff all the boon perks except coh since they no longer have to be balanced around being unlimited which severely chokeholds their strength. I wouldn’t even be against returning them to 28 meters at that point like they were on the ptb. (It might also need to be that breaking a totem completely removes it thus preventing Pentimento interaction. I’d be fine with that.)
Then rework shattered hope to either let you just insta-break like it does now or something else entirely, doesn’t really matter.
The alternative is nerfing coh again down to the level of the other boons which will kill the entire mechanic because none of them will be worth bringing. I don’t think that would be ideal.
But running to the same annoying places (especially the top of ironworks) over and over again to snuff the same totem is not fair design nor is it fun. Personally I still refuse to bring coh as survivor because I think as an unlimited resource it’s too busted in its current state, and I’m a survivor main.
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You don’t speak for the community actually.
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I go back and forth on this.
On one hand, most boons are pretty underwhelming. Dark Theory is pretty much useless, making you a pathetic 0.08m faster. Exponential is extremely powerful... but also so situational that it's seldom used. Shadowstep is a good perk, but doesn't hide blood or grunts, so it's still pretty fair.
On the other hand, let's be real. CoH is the only boon used. If you're using another boon, you're using it with CoH. If you're using a boon without CoH, you're doing it to troll your team. The ability to infinitely self reset is straight up unfair, breaks the backs of over half the killer roaster, deletes practically every injury-based perk, and even Anti-Healing perks barely do anything to it. It's universally useful, easy to use, has little counter, helps the entire team even when used selfishly, and STACKS with medkits. The perk single handedly makes healing a complete joke. Botany nukes medkits, DM needs stacks, Inner Strength heals 1 person ONCE and eats a totem, No One Left Behind requires all gens to pop; compare all this to CoH that just requires you to sit at a totem (that are easy to find) for a few seconds, and boom, everyone has Release-Day Self-Care.
Either balance around CoH, or nuke CoH. This perk can't just be left as is.
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But survivors need some time to cleanse them but the killer snuffs a totem instantly
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No, but the upvotes kinda do.
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Undying made it so a team of Four survivors would have to find and squash between 2 to 5 totems to stop a hex from working.
This was seen as too strong so they changed Undying to be a flat 2 totems.
Boons come out with infinite re-use.
This is seen as too strong so they add a perk killers have to use to stop them. Additionally, this perk allows the killer to stop boons, but only after squashing all five totems.
Additionally, survivors have perks, items, and addons that show them were every totem is to help them hunt. Killers LOST the perk they had that pointed out the totems for them, making finding boons a tremendously difficult proposition for a single player to undertake while ALSO doing everything else a killer has to do in the extremely limited timeframe they're given.
To, so summarize:
- Breaking 2-5 totems for a team of four? Too strong. Killer perk nerfed.
- Breaking a MINIMUM of five totems for a single killer? Too strong of an effect to be baseline, so they made it into a perk the killer must use just to have any chance of countering a single boon.
- Killers still have nothing to make finding boons easier.
Yup. That's the modern design aesthetic.
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The difference is that survivors have 16 perks, the killer only has 4. So the killer using 1 perk to prevent something that survivors MIGHT bring means they are sacrificing 25% of their potential perks. Good survivors often don't need any perks, or can take 1 perk to help them find the totem, so they can place the boon, meaning they are sacrificing only 1/16 or 1/8 their potential perks.
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if shattered hope were basekit i hope they do take the time to buff up the other boon perks, because in its current form mainly just coh that is very problematic for the game.
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They kinda don’t.
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How about make shattered hope basekit but make boons' range global and less noise like HEX, when boon's effect was used the totem aura will be revealed to killer for x seconds.
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I disagree as for one it would prevent the use of NOED and plaything. My alternative is that once snuffed the totem turns red preventing survivors from booning it again for a limited time. (maybe 30-60 seconds) this will prevent survivors from booning the same one over again but survivors could still cleanse it for bloodpoints, rift challenges and perks like inner healing or overzealous. What do y'all think?
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That is true but survivors also have to worry about the other survivors (unless swf) cleansing the totems before they get the chance to use a boon
Also without coordinating (like soloq) you might have 3 people with boons but because the 4th person cleansed all the totems or killer brought shattering hope to deal with it that ends up being a waste of 3-8 perks depending on the build
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I find that this would be a better solution than adding that perk as a base kit I think 20-40 seconds would be more than enough time.
Given how boons take like 16-36 seconds (hex and if they brought a specific hex to increase the time further) I think it is silly that killer react so harsh to a survivors wasting a perk slot and the amount of time they are not touching a generator just because they can keep placing a boon
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I hear this too often. Let me explain.
Killer time us with 4 times as much survivor time. When someone is blessing, 3 others can be doing gens or looping the killer.
If the killer drops whatever they're doing, takes 3 seconds to go to the boon, do the 1.5 sec snuff animation, and takes another 3 to get back on their patrol route, then that's collectively 30 seconds worth of survivor time refunded. Subtract the 14 blessing seconds, and you GAINED 16 seconds. Without any healing whatsoever (because who uses boons without CoH).
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Considering I never find it on the bloodweb.The Smashing part should be base kit but this could make Pentimento very strong.
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Honestly, if people are that hurt about the boon totems, something that's in the game to actually try to flesh out a secondary objective, that at least a bunch of killers always said survivors should be doing instead of just working on generators, then sure, get rid of the boons, give us back the self-care that the majority use, lament that there's no interplay of survivors doing anything but "rushing gens", and...profit, I guess?
They shook up the totem placement a few versions ago and it's still not super easy to find them, so much so that on some maps I had boon perks become completely useless, while I wasted at least a gen's worth of time searching for, probably two.
The issue with boons, if there is one, is when more than one or two people have them - depending on the map. Obviously it's very difficult for killers to get traction if there are a lot of 'defence zones' helping survivors but...I guess the answer to that is...do bones?
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I’d be fine with shattered hope being basekit, but boon perks would need a buff to compensate.
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I'd only agree if they made our boons active at the start of a match and made it map wide :) if you want to make the double standards point, oh and also make them take time to destroy, and each boon takes their own totem.
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Sure, why not?
Making them identical is not a bad thing.
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Honestly, I was thinking that maybe Hex Retribution should work on boons aswell, so everytime a survivor does a boon, the aura effect triggers
It prolly is too strong maybe, but it crossed my mind as a counter to boon totems tbh, where you need to have it in mind when setting one up
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Boons cant be buffed because CoH is already overpowered.
Boons can't be nerfed cause other boons are too weak.
At some point, one of those will have to happen. Better early than late. Then they'll make changes following this. I doubt behavior will rebalance all bons at the same time so I'd rather they take it slow than do nothing at all.
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I'd advocate for maybe some decent chunk of time after a snuff where that specific totem cannot be blessed. Maybe 45 seconds. But the reality is it takes way longer and is a way bigger risk when a survivor takes the time to cleanse a hex. They're not comparable in that way.
With every ability the survivors have you have to remember they're made around the 4v1. Imagine we have generic killer perk A and generic survivor perk we'll call B. Perk A helps the killer with a 4v1 somehow, and as a result usually effects all 4 survivors at once, or could effect them at any time depending.
Perk B helps that survivor, and sometimes the other survivors with their side of the 4v1. If survivors had perks as powerful as the killers that wouldn't math right up to the balance. Boons are really useful sure, they take a decent chunk of time to bless. They take 2 seconds to stuff. Hexes are also really useful and most you get for free at the start of the match without having to do anything. They take a while to get rid of, as killer you're in a position where you can actually protect the hex. Survivors cannot stop you from snuffing a boon. You can stop them from cleansing your hex. Your hex is typically more powerful because it provides something anywhere in the map, while the boon provides a buff in a radius. Hexes can't be heard, only seen glowing. Boons both glow a bright blue and you can hear yourself getting closer to them.
To recap boons are harder to set up, easier to get rid of, easier to find, and only provide a benefit near the boon. Hexes start at the beginning of the match, take a while to get rid of, you can actually stop survivors from getting rid of them, they're harder to find and they provide whatever benefit they have from anywhere in the map. There's a lot going on here so figuring out the "math" of how good each of these are is hard but I'd say yeah, hexes are 4x more useful than boons.
Additionally, if a survivor has more than 1 boon you can get rid of all of them with one snuff. If the killer as more than one hex the survivors need to painstakingly get rid of every, single. one.
All in all you can't say "boons are hexes for survivors so they should work the same way." That's silly. Any comparable mechanic between roles should work differently. Survivors each should have less power given from the equivalent mechanic, but it should still be useful, viable and something the killer can play around. And vice versa. And hexes and boons have that down fine.
Let me ask you this, would you prefer each boon the survivor has goes on a separate totem at the start? And the killer needs to spend several seconds cleansing each one? No that wouldn't be very fair would it. But hey yeah in that case I agree, they should be gone forever.
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Honestly I don't think boons are powerful enough that this is strictly necessary but yeah I might be down for this? My only issue with it is actually recently I used my BIG BRAIN as killer to find the final survivor in a way that wouldn't be possible if this was the case. This is a very rare ""strat"" if you can call it that but it might be worth thinking about.
Unless they have some aura reading to help, totems take a while to find save for people who have maps memorized really well. (This would likely only happen at low and mid mmr) So survivors often bless the same totem over and over again, hence why this is an issue. They only found one totem, they rely on that totem for their boon.
So I had a game that was going pretty good as Deathslinger. There was a Feng that was causing me a lot of trouble but the other 3 weren't playing super great. Gens were still popping so I'd say towards the middle of the match it was still anyone's game. As it goes along I snuff about 2 or 3 of the same boon, I guess that Mikaela couldn't find a different one. The 2 other unnamed survivors get out of the game. I catch the Feng on the last gen and start a chase that goes longer than I'd care to admit, get the down huck her on the hook.
Shortly after I hear a boon crack in the SKY. I know exactly where she is, you bet she blessed the same frickin' one again. I go to the place directly in-between the boon and the hook and cut them off. Get the M1, then real in for the down with M2.
Like any mechanic that helps the survivors with something other than gens, it slows down the game and is to your benefit. I think I saw someone say this somewhere... "Self-Care is a killer perk." Yeah pretty much. I say let them boon, even CoH is not as powerful as the people in this thread claim it is. Boons don't give me much trouble. They give the survivor something else to do and that's cute, I'll snuff it after I get the down on this cocky Mikaela.
I'm speaking like a killer main just to get these other killer mains to understand. I actually play both roles more or less equally. Boons sure help a lot. I don't run them. CoH is mainly useful for when there's only 3 or 2 survivors left and you can't get heals from anywhere else really. ! gen left, 2 survivors left. The other one is in chase, alright cool it's great now this person can go heal up to either safely finish the gen or go for an unhook with a hit to spare. Early game? 4 survivors alive, 3 gens left. Yeah sure Dwight, go heal in a corner and leave that gen to regress. Great idea.
SELF-CARE IS A KILLER PERK, SAY IT WITH ME NOW!
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Boon should never have been added in the first place, and now that they've slapped a perk-based bandaid they will never touch the issue again. Par for the Behaviour course.
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I actually made this as a joke suggestion in reply to this thread. I don't know how you could see this not being broken. If they were identical, and all 4 survivors were running 4 boons, and the killer was running 4 hexes, for one there wouldn't be nearly enough totems to go around. It would turn the game into "everyone (including killer) start cleansing stuff, then we can play the match". Killer would be screwed. Shadowstep, Circle of Healing and Exponential spread out everywhere and you don't know which is which. You have to take several seconds to get rid of each. They are not supposed to be the same. They're different for a reason. Boons are LESS powerful because in part by the fact you can get rid of them nearly instantly. Being able to re apply them is a trade off that still leaves them weaker. I think it's great shattered hope exists, it's not even a teachable. Use your perk slot for that, that's completely fair and you will have lots of fun punishing and wasting the time of poor Mikaela's everywhere. But you have to spend a perk slot for it gamer, you can't have that crap for free. I personally don't see it as all that useful even if it was basekit. Boons keep them off gens for a bit. Then I snuff it and usually the game snowballs in such a way they don't get a chance to set up another. At least not another one that anyone gets value out of before I snuff that one too. A lot of people don't see the benefit in actually letting survivors do things lots of perks stop them from doing. For example Claustrophobia isn't good to run on killers like Deathslinger and Huntress because window vaults are free hits. If you're running gen slow down like a good killer main those gens are literally falling to pieces while those 3 megs go heal in the boon by shack. If you break that totem instead of just snuff it they will actually hop back on gens instead of getting it back up again you silly goose. Boons are free self inflicted slowdown. If you leave a boon up and find where it is now you know their little hangout spot and you can go crash their healing party.
See this post for exactly why.
And this.
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I am fine with rekindlable boons. Problem lies in hexes being waste of a perk slot or requiring a 3-4 perk hex build to be relevant and then you still may fall victim of mapgen putting your hexes next to survivor spawn or somewhere visible from orbit.
IMO hexes should not be tied to totems on the map and shall be persistent, while cleansing any totem on the map shall turn all hex effects on killer off for 90 seconds or so.
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I wasn't even talking to you...
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I wouldnt be apposed to being able to reup a hex totem
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