Why is tunneling considered bad form?
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There are no current tools to prevent tunneling. The main thing DS had was that it stacked on everything else. If you took a bt hit, DS would still give you another hit. But now DS is completely worthless so you basically just have 1 hit right off hook. Then the killer can focus you down again and get the free win.
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I loved that post.
@DBDVulture Whats your take? This is what you want?
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Dont be facetious, you cant chase 4 survivors at once. my point was to share the chase interaction around and pressure survivors off gens and to do something stupid.
Also what you are describing (hooking a survivor between 3 gens) is proxy camping. Reducing map size makes that easier, which makes for sweatier gameplay. After the last survivor nerf and massive killer buff I think that the DBD does not need a map rework. They need to sort out the existing balance issues post 'meta rework' first.
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The difference in your example is pretty straightforward though, the killer was never removed from the game regardless of the approach the survivors take. Tunnelling someone right off the hook, does remove that survivor from the game without any real conterplay for that survivor. They are at the killers mercy, and it is insanely unfun to be dangling from a hook or just outright removed.
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Nah, that's not true. As soon as you stop chasing a survivor, they're back on gens. That kind of 1v4 only really works with Legion. The only way to slow down gens is to get more survivors injured/hooked than the rest of the team can deal with, ie a snowball, or to remove someone from the game - which is often the easiest and most permanent form of pressure. Hence, tunneling. Unfortunately, the way the game is set up, it pays off more than spreading hooks.
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Yes, survivors will get back on gens. But you have wasted their time. By chasing them you may force a hit and make them heal or do something else stupid. That's how you snowball without camping or tunnelling.
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Tunneling a survivor was defined very clearly with the first post. And it was clearly explained why it is bad form. And based off the definition provided, it is in fact possible to tunnel a survivor.
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I don't really understand this. A killer chases a survivor off a gen, and survivors move to other gens. They don't go back to the same gen - at least not immediately anyway. This is why the game gets more difficult when there are fewer gens.
I don't really understand how people can both think and post this illogical stuff. "Rushing" generators and tunnelling are not the same. Generators and Hooking are closer to being like for like.
Tunnelling is unsportsmanlike. Everybody knows it is. It's cheap, it's simple, and unless the survivors are organised and coordinate well, it's very effective. Again, the evidence in this is how killers will do it when they want to punish a survivor - understandably for things like t-bagging or baiting the killer. It's the most effective way of taking away someone's enjoyment.
There are actually a bunch of ways to mitigate tunnelling though. Some, like Pyramid Head's Cage already exist in the game. Sure, there's no hook interplay there, but it is rather effective at reducing a tunnel.
Others could be wildly different. Like if we suppose we wanted to say tunnelling survivors and gens was the same, we could simply have a hook counter of 12, where any combination of persons can be hooked up to 12 times, but on that twelfth hook, game over.
Or, another route is when one player dies, the game ends. That would be another "actual" like for like with doing generators and tunnelling.
Because, for some reason, some killers don't really seem to get that killers don't get killed in the game. It's wild but true. When a survivor dies, the game actually ends for them. They don't ghostly do all the extra tasks on the ship to catch the murderer and watch things play out, they're done interacting. It's over. End of the game.
I'm not sure why I have to say that, but some people still don't really get it. The survivor finishes playing the game when they're out. The killer does not. This is why tunnelling (and camping) is an issue.
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Tunneling isn't unsportsmanlike and there is no issue with a killer killing survivors early into the game.
That's simply how the game is designed. The killer's goal is to eliminate survivors.
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"The killer's goal is to eliminate survivors."
I agree. Though I don't understand why that makes tunnelling the most effective use of their time. In fact it's actually not against highly skilled teams, because those teams will do gens.
That's why I say it's unsportsmanlike. It's disingenuous to complain about coordinated survivors being powerful while using a strategy that relies upon the survivors being uncoordinated.
Of course, if each hook state took 90s or longer, camping and tunnelling would immediately cease to be effective in all forms, and since no one complains about hook state times being too long (yet, anyway, jury's out on reassurance), I doubt anyone should complain at this simple form of balancing.
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Yes you can. You're about the finish the gen, the killer hits you once, you keep working on the gen mid-attack cooldown and it finishes. You keep pushing gens even if it means the killer downing you immediately after.
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How is it too easy for killers to tunnel? I mean besides Nurse and Blight.
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Killers camp and tunnel when it's not at 5 gens. What makes it extra offensive when it is at 5 gens?
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That's not tunneling. That's gen rushing.
Is it #########? Yes. But so is being instadowned by a phead immediately after getting unhooked.
I can see tunneling as a last-resort strategy if there's literally no other way you can get decent pressure, but too many killers tunnel at 5 gens.
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He can't instadown you like that anymore, because you get 5 seconds of BT AND Haste for free. And I've still yet to see a reason why killers can't tunnel at 5 gens. Like it's only okay for them to tunnel once they're already in a losing game, is what y'all are saying. They can't just do it for advantage, like survivors do when they all split up on gens at the beginning?
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I have over a thousand hours, a majority of which are on killer. Yes, I'm saying it's bad form to tunnel at 5 gens and it shows lack of skill.
And I understand that, it's just an example. You know exactly what I mean.
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The ultimate deciding factor to if someone has skill or not, this community has decided, is the match result. Did the killer player fair and skillful and get 1k, or did he play mean and get 4k? Clearly, the one with 1k is worse, people would say. But the reality is that skipping over strategies that would have helped you win is the exact opposite of skill. That's why so many skilled killers camp and tunnel even though they're really good in chase, because they get way better results camping/tunneling than they ever would have with going for multiple chases.
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Tell yourself whatever you want. You're sweating, not having any fun, and losing BP.
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The point that they made, which you are ignoring. is that when a survivor is tunneled out of their match, they are kicked out of the game and earn no points. This is regardless of whether or not they played well. The killer robs them of the ability to participate. This does not happen to the killer if a generator is finished quickly.
In addition to that, generator times have recently increased. Therefore it stands to reason, that if survivors have less ability to "tunnel generators" then it would only be fair to reduce the killers' ability to tunnel survivors.
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There aren't plenty of ways. That's why this is being discussed. If you're being tunneled off of hook, your only protection is the 5 second BT. If a killer is intent on tunneling they will eat the BT and continue the chase, rather than wait it out and risk any other endurance effect and the only other protection against tunneling is DS, which gives so little distance, it is very unlikely that you'll get to a pallet before the killer is able to recover and down you again.
And unlike completing a single generator the game is super killer sided after a survivor is killed. Now if something is going to be soo powerful for killer, survivor should have the ability to protect themselves.
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Survivors always had the means toearn paoints until they are removed from the game. The risk of elimination is part of the design. Dbd isnt a team deazthmatch with respawn, its an roundbased objective driven game like CS or R6:S. Survivors can get eliminated, killers have a time limit in the form of the time it takes for survivors to cpomplete the gens. The quicker you do gens, the less time killers have to do their objective, remove survivors from the game.
Your last paragraph also only rings true if the devs decisded to randomly mix up the game without the intention to chamnge the balance. But they explicitekly designed this patch tonerf survivors because "killrates are less than they want them to be"
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There are two killers capable of playing on large mas : Nurse/Blight. It is ridiculous to "need to play those killers to have a chance of a fair game on all maps.
You are not wrong. But at the same time it is very easy to play in a SWF and trade one hook for one generator. What is the killer supposed do against that kind of pressure? The answer is : camp/tunnel.
DBD has maps that are far too safe/easy for the survivors to win.
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I don't think the intention was to make focusing down survivors one at a time was the intention. The buffs were intended to shorten chases, if anything I think they thought that this would help cut back on tunneling if killers didn't feel frustrated.
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Points has nothing to do with it.
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Welcome to every video game ever with a death mechanic. When you die, you die. That's what dying is. There may be weird exceptions like Among Us, but for 99% of games, dying means you are done. Yes. That is.... pretty standard. So yeah, sitting there complaining that a killer killing you in a game where the killer's killer role is killing you.... that's a weird take.
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It doesn't matter how many seconds are added if the killer hits you right off of hook. Those perks do not prevent hard tunneling at all.
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I think that kind of tunneling where the killer sniffs the survivor waiting for BT and then proceeds to rehook them is unhealthy for the game. It's not fun to do it as killer and it sure as hell isn't fun for the survivor. However, I don't blame players that do it and I don't cry when it happens to me. It's BHVR's job to fix this, not the player's.
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Those add time for the effect to be triggered. Smart killers are taking their swing immediately and then with improved recovery times from the hit, and shorter speed bursts just running the survivor down. Borrowed time is a joke as is off the record.
Unsafe hook rescues are now basically 2 people slugged within 15 seconds. Even with the built in endurance effect. Of course, survivors shouldn't be performing unsafe unhooks, it's just an example of how easy to get around the endurance "protection"
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My understanding is this:
"Tunneling" is derived from "tunnel vision," which refers to a loss of peripheral vision. When one is described as having a "tunnel vision mentality," it means they are focused entirely on a singular goal without any consideration of outside circumstances surrounding you.
If you as a Killer are dead-set on knocking one person out of the game as soon as possible while generally ignoring everything and everyone else, you are in a tunnel vision menality and are thus tunneling. If the Killer is keeping gen pressure going, keeping Survivors off gens and also making sure that they secure a kill as quickly as possible to screw up Survivor momentum, that's not tunneling so much as playing efficiently.
A Survivor would be said to be in a tunnel vision mentality if and specifically if they are hammering out gens without any consideration for who is on a hook, who is in danger of dying, where the Killer is (unless they are directly on top of that Survivor), etc. If they are hammering out gens but still keeping the Killer busy when needed or still unhooking when the opportunity arises or still knocking out Hexes as seen/needed, that's also not tunneling so much as just playing efficiently.
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Probably the best post in this thread IMO.
I had 3 Dwights leave a Jake to die on his first hook while popping gens. I often show mercy when I play killer but not that game. Those Dwights had to die.
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I mean, that's my point? That killers asserting that doing a generator and tunnelling a survivor, are the same thing.
I'm pointing out the logical inconsistency to compare the two like for like. It's bizarre to say that.
It's even more bizarre that killers act really put upon and aggrieved when survivors escape or do more generators, since their gameplay doesn't end. Instead of each hook or kill being a victory it's a culture of anything less than four kills is a loss (for a lot of people on these forums, not in the game generally, I think).
I dunno, maybe the game's just built in a way to promote that mindset, since it's the horror genre.
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I respectfully disagree, the killer buffs make larger maps a lot more manageable. If you are asking for a killer buff and a total map rework, why not make it so the survivors put themselves on the hook for you while we are at it.
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Oh man, Artist is pretty good on big maps as well. Especially against people who don't understand her power. I can be on the opposite side and fire the crows at a gen and watch the swarm run away from the gen. You can keep pressure while a long way away.
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I do understand that people have different meanings to Tunneling... but what's the truth cause if that was laid out to us we would be able to separate what Tunneling actually is VS. what people claim Tunneling is...
Please at least tell us BHVR....
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The moment survivors start playing how killers want, then killers will do whatever they want without care.
Not being mean here. Just saying that not every game has that type of killer. So when you encounter it, that's it. Move on. The world isn't perfect so why should a video game be?
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It depends on what exactly were calling tunneling. I've had survivors call me a tunneller because I go back to the gen they were working on and find them there unhealed and greeding for a gen. I wouldn't say that's tunneling and is really just punishing greed.
But, if you're going out of your way to get one single person in a way that's going to make you lose, then it's stupid. Imagine there's 4 gens left, and the killer just camps and tunnels a guy just because they can. It feels like you just lose because of a killer cheesing the mechanics. And while sometimes tunneling can be a good idea, its more often than not used to spite a single survivor for any reason.
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It is poor sportsmanship to camp and tunnel very early in the game.
And, before you or anyone else suggest I'm one-sided in my opinions about this game...
It is poor sportsmanship to continue cranking gens when the killer has zero downs with 2 gens left.
In either case, I stand on the side of "recognize when you've establish adequate pressure, and take your foot off the pedal so everyone can play the game."
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Those are made-up rules and virtue signaling. The sportsmanship part comes from saying GG, or at least not being toxic like tbagging or head nodding when you're winning. You don't lose sportsmanship for playing in a way that you have to in order to win.
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Tell me you've never played a sport IRL without telling me you've never played a sport IRL
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I wasn't much into sports, especially because of my knee problems, but regardless I don't remember that using a certain formation in football was considered toxic, nor hitting the ball a certain way in baseball. It's only when you spike the football or shout slurs at the other team.
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In recreational sports, when a team has established a significant lead over their opponent, they will substitute their top players for their benchwarmers.
In competitive sports, a mercy rule is instituted for similar situations, so as not to humiliate the opponent.
In both scenarios, the practice is considered a show of good sportsmanship.
Whether it is to be considered poor sportsmanship to continue beating your opponent is neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is that showing mercy, and allowing inexperienced players an opportunity for growth and development, are behaviors of a good sport.
The gaming community as a whole (not just in DBD) should be pushing to practice better sportsmanship.
The lack of accountability in our anonymous online environments, paired with the attention-seeking attitude of the younger generation has facilitated too much toxicity for far too long. If we are going to continue coexisting in this virtual environment, we should be asking more of our peers, and hold eachother to higher standards.
It is not virtue signaling to want to live in a better world.
Post edited by KayTwoAyy on1 -
Tunneling never been considered bad form anyway.
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What you're talking about isn't done solely to give the other team mercy. It's to give the 'weaker' players some experience, so as to not pay them to do nothing, and to build them up for when one of the good players gets injured or something and they need to sub out. In a way, it's almost anti-sportsmanlike, because you're basically saying, "We could easily beat you as is, but because we're in such a lead, we're gonna let our benchwarmers loose and see if they can't hand you a point or 2." That's what you see in FIFA online when the opponent puts their goalie upfront, basically showboating.
You're allowing the other team to play still, but you're giving them false hope as well. They probably see that you're letting up and may have a shot at making a comeback, but even if that did happen, it would be because you screwed up by throwing away your advantage, not because they just played that well. You see this in DBD when survivors have a huge gen lead and use it to waste time body blocking and spamming second chance perks for style. It's not to let the other team win as much as it is to showboat and then escape back to guaranteed victory.
The comparison you're making just isn't there. What smart survivor team just stops doing gens to give the killer a chance? No, they do it to be altruistic and show off because they've basically already won and they know it. You see killer do it so little because they almost never have that kind of advantage outside of playing a top 2 killer. It's not because they're bad sports; they want to win and win decisively after losing so many times to factors that are outside their control. Notice that teams who lost in real sports year after year usually want to keep their top spot instead of returning to being losers.
Your suggestion is so idealistic, as opposed to practical, that it could only ever exist in casual play, which is the part of a game's playerbase that needs to show sportsmanship the least. When you lose in this game you lose hard and repeatedly, and that's not fun, so why would I waste my time being what you would call sportsmanlike when I have nowhere near the advantage to do so? Even if I did have that advantage, survivor has so much comeback potential that letting up for even a second could cement a loss for me, which I don't feel like experiencing for no good reason. That's reality.
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How do you spite a survivor for any reason? It'd have to be a pretty good reason. Sometimes, it just isn't personal. You tunnel somebody out so that you can win and not lose, because trust me, once that opportunity has passed, it's gone for good. Then you'll be sitting with a 1k at the end, terrible performance as wonder, "I bet I could have won if I tunneled that person out." I've been through it many times.
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Here is a candle for your optimism—may it forever rest in peace.
I don’t know any other way to say this but uhhh… no. You’re wrong.
Somebody saw you were thirsty and handed you a glass half full of water.
The fact that you look a gift horse in the mouth and say, “I don’t want that, it’s half empty,” is your problem.
The person who handed that glass to you has made a kind gesture, regardless of whether you choose to see that or not.
Maybe nothing will please you. But kindness, compassion, and just generally treating other people like human beings… that sorta stuff will please most people. I don’t know how you could possibly argue that we don’t need more of that in our lives.
DBD is not a competitive game. People can and will play to win, but at the end of the day we’re all humans coming together to have a good time.
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Beeing chased around same loops where you lost chase and could not find any pallets is not fun also :D, and now you are force to escape with same shity place where no pallets left or something
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tunneling isn't real and is usually the survivors fault
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There is no logical inconsistency in the fact that a survivor doing a generator and a killer killing a survivor are both their objectives.
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