What Exactly Made Solo Queue Worse Recently?
Title.
People keep saying that solo queue has been ruined, it's dead, it got the short end of the stick with the big midchapter patch recently, and I just do not see it. I'm asking in good faith here, I believe there's probably some kernel of truth in this take since so many people parrot it, but the only thing I've seen making solo queue any worse than it used to be is people giving up by DCing or suiciding on hook. In terms of actual game balance, the stuff that the patch actually affected, my solo queue experience got better.
Though, one clarification- when I ask what made solo queue worse, it must be something that changed recently, not something that makes solo queue annoying in general (IE, the continuing lack of information, which hasn't changed either way despite still needing to be addressed). This is directed specifically at the people who say the midchapter made solo queue worse.
Let's try and keep this civil too, please!
Comments
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Everything that allowed you to avoid being tunneled got nerfed. Playing solo you have very little chance of living if you are being tunneled, all the perks that helped you live got gutted. Mainly it was the nerf to DS and Dead Hard but the killer buffs made it even worse. This didn't hurt SWFs because they will just protect the person you try to tunnel, but very few teammates will help you in soloQ.
They also loosened up MMR parameters to reduce queue times, so weaker survivors are being introduced into the MMR cap games. Add on to the fact that there is a abundance of killers and not enough survivors to go around. The games being played right now are far from fair. Add all these things together and you have a death fest for anyone not playing in a group.
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People who DC, people who kill themselfes as soon as possible, people who helps directly to killer ( just had game against pinhead where dwight pick up cobe and went to give it to killer every time he could).
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So, first, when you say that every perk that helped you live through tunnelling got gutted, you mean... Decisive Strike? That's the only anti-tunnel perk that existed, period, and it did get nerfed. Dead Hard is not an anti-tunnel perk and is still pretty good if you know how to use it, so that one doesn't count, and even those two are the only ones you mentioned- what about Off The Record? That'll give you a ton of opportunity to outplay a tunnelling killer. On top of that, you literally cannot be downed immediately off hook anymore, so you always have agency when you're tunnelled.
The MMR part I can't speak to, I've not personally noticed it but that doesn't mean it isn't a thing for other players. Fair enough, maybe you're getting mismatched enough that it's more frustrating, I could see that.
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So the way it worked before the patch was the killer had to go through borrowed time, dead hard, decisive strike. Now the killer just has to realistically only go through OTR. Even if you choose to run DS they eat it and you last another 5-10 seconds. Lets also not forget in end game right now no true anti-tunnel perk works. If you are the last person chased you usually just in a solo game. It has gotten to a point that people have given up on trying to save people that are not close to the gates.
The true power of DS last patch was that most killers didn't want to give you the DS. Also if you showed a killer you had dead hard, they had to calculate that as well. In most cases even if they managed to down you quickly after you were unhooked, they would just leave you slugged. Now they aren't afraid of DS or DH, even if you run it they just eat through it.
So yeah, your tools were nerfed. Killers are more comfortable tunneling because they aren't afraid of any perks you are running.
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Unironically dead hard being gone.
Thats basically it.
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Poor Cobe :(
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I once saw a killer said that if you run for 5 Gens and die in the end, you need to learn to play.
Am I supposed to loops you for 5 Gens + Gates open?
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I'm not seeing how your conclusion there matches with your arguments. If you were the best survivor in the world prior to the midchapter and one of your mates went down to a mediocre Bubba with Deadlock, it was basically the same thing? I'd buy that the extension to generator times makes getting all completed before your teammate dies harder, but that's a problem that affects SWF quite a bit too, it's very much its own thing.
As for chase efficiency, only kind of? Your post-hit sprint was reduced, certainly, and the killer wipes their blade almost imperceptibly faster, but tiles weren't changed (in fact, new ones were added!) and the only Exhaustion/chase perk that got changed was Dead Hard, so you still have all the tools you'd need to run the killer for a fair while. I guess you're a little more at risk of Bloodlust, but even with the buffed values it's not a net win for the killer to hit Bloodlust 3 before getting a hit, especially if that hit isn't a down.
Basically, in summation... things only changed a little bit in that regard, nowhere near enough to make running the killer in solo queue impossible. Maybe I'm missing something about your argument here, I'd love to see it if so.
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Killer strategies such as 3/4 gen, camping, tunneling, etc, all require strategy and coordination on the survivor end to counter. Those killer strategies were made stronger by killer buffs, gen speed changes, and survivor nerfs. But solo survivors still have zero tools to communicate and strategize.
It's one thing in other competitive games for one or two players to not be in VC when there's an accepted meta. They probably know what to do. In DbD, you're hoping everyone knows to play it slow and reset each other away from the 3 gen in a 3v1, but you A: can't communicate that to anyone who might be listening, and B: can't even be sure people know to do that because of matchmaking and the fact that there's no accepted meta on niche macro stuff because players can't talk to each other in game.
The frustration comes in when high level play requires strategy on both sides. A killer has all the information to play strategically, and you're expected to telepathically strategize on survivor.
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I solo queue most of the time and I’ve noticed that my teammates have gotten worse after the dh nerf. I’ve had plenty of matches when I died on my first hook or went into my struggle phase. Not mentioning being camped and tunneled which has gotten worse imo. And my mmr is constantly going down due to teammates who dc or just give up
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Oh no it's Nurse or Blight, a """"no-counter killer"""" = DC or suicide
Oh no it's Trapper, Ghostface or Onryo, weak killers at best = DC or suicide
Basically survivors are the problem of solo queue.
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As someone who plays mostly solo queue when I play survivor (due to being one of the last people in my friend group crazy enough to play this game still) - the biggest difference is people give up more. Genuinely. Before the rebalance patch you'd have your rage quitters, but generally if someone went down after a gen got done they'd stick around because (I'm assuming) the done gen made them feel like they had lasted decently long in chase. Since the patch, though, I've seen on both sides survivors throw in the towel on their first hook regardless of when it happens. Jane the last one hooked and I'm on death hook because the Nemesis tried to tunnel me? Gonna kill myself, nevermind the fact 3.5 gens are done. We're down to 2 gens against a Legion where two people are on death hook and Claudette's getting hooked for the second time right as Feng and I both have gens halfway progressed? Better DC on hook, especially since the dead on hook Nea's already given up and is hiding in a corner hoping for hatch! On killer, I'll be having what feels like a good game where either side could win shift suddenly and irrevocably in my favor because the third unique person I hook decides it's not worth playing anymore and DCs.
I'm not gonna say it never happened before the patch, but it feels a lot more pervasive now. You either luck into at least a 2 man and lower your odds of someone DCing or giving up tremendously just because they've got a friend, or you're rolling the dice very heavily, no matter how well the game's been going. Used to be that you'd know early on if your team were going to be babies about it or not, now it can genuinely happen whenever. I don't run strong survivor builds, I think it's more fun to do something silly or something that feels good than anything else, so I don't go in expecting to win every match, and I'm not saying there's not clearly unwinnable matches where you just want out, but I've seen quite a few games that could have gone either way become easy 4ks because someone decided they were done halfway or more into the match, and that's happened a heck of a lot more since the update. Feels fairly confirmation biasy that so many people think the game skewed too hard towards the killer side at this point, honestly...
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I'm honestly not too invested in this type of argument since I also believe that survivor soloq isn't horrendous, maybe a little more miserable or a little less fun than before, but it's definitely playable still.
There are a couple of perks that got buffed that hurt soloq more than swf. In particular, this is eruption, surge, and sort of pain res. Eruption directly effects soloq because you can't really predict when a survivor will go down, you can maybe guess with empathy, but even then it's pretty tricky. Eruption both regresses the gen and prevents you from working on it for 25 seconds (almost the entire cooldown of the perk). Surge isn't the biggest deal, but it definitely has cost me games because my soloq teammates decided to run the killer near my almost complete gen and they go down and then I get chased off my gen and it never gets finished. With certain killers, surge having no cooldown can be catastrophic when soloq teammates decides to run over to the potential three gen. Pain res didn't get directly buffed, but it did get an indirect buff by increased gen times, which is harder in soloq to coordinate whether you want to pair up on a pertinent gen to try and complete it or just split up and keep having gens take hits with pain res. Soloq struggles with lack of communication that gets hit more by these perks being changed.
Endurance being changed also takes away or at least changes the toolkits of survivors. Survivors can adjust and overcome and learn new strategies, but it does require some thinking out of the box. You can still run an anti tunnel build of OTR, DS, and Deadhard, which would allow you to take a hit with OTR, go down and hit DS, and then get another hit with a successful deadhard, but this plan definitely is harder to pull off without just getting yourself killed again if your team isn't slamming gens. Even when you do this off your first hook, the killer can just do it again and eat through the OTR. Depending how you are in chase, maybe this would have been fine if your team was all split up on gens, but in soloq, this isn't guaranteed and known so they might waste time taking hits when the killer still has tunnel vision on you. Again, you can say this is no different than before the patch, but I feel like the killer usually would wait out DS leaving you slugged which allowed you to either pair it with unbreakable or for someone to pick you up. Killers seem more willing to eat the DS and just brute force it than before. Before it seemed like the killer would just completely drop chase when a DS stun happened or lose you anyway because they would never pick you up. Now as soloq, it's harder to bluff the DS and use unbreakable or at least have a contingency plan that would get the killer away from you for awhile.
Another thing with endurance that hurts soloq is the basekit BT and risky unhooks. I've had situations where the survivor goes for a risky unhook where the killer is returning back to hook, but instead of taking a hit for me, they just run away. The 5 seconds was just enough time for the killer to reach my hook in the dead zone and then I go down almost right away because I didn't have the protection hit. Basekit BT has definitely been good, but it sometimes prompts your soloq teammates to think they can just dessert you without protecting you slightly, so this can be annoying now in soloq. It's like the mentality that you have BT, you should be fine, when the 5 second is definitely not enough for certain unhooks. The other problem is that if the killer just hits you through your basekit bt, both deadhard and OTR can't save you. If the killer really wants to tunnel you out, there's only one perk that you can bring that isn't disregarded by base mechanics, and that perk was nerfed in last patch.
All of these things are very minor, but they are the reasons that I could see why someone would say soloq is unbearable or worse than before. Last night, I had 3 games in a row where I was hard tunnelled for no real good reason. It sucked, and felt bad, but that's just how it goes sometimes. I had plenty of games where I escaped as well or was the reason why my two teammates could escape. I had a nurse drop chase with me because I was wasting her time, so like, I play for that, not for the win. Hence why I still have fun in soloq.
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DS and DH got nerfed, that's basically it, which means Survivors can't really crutch on Perks anymore
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Tunneling is too easy now, it's the easy shortcut to win so of course most players are doing it, OTR is weak, DS is useless, that 5 seconds BT is a real joke and most people don't even run these perks in solo Q anyway, they die instantly then you're 3v1 with 4 gens left, so fun and balanced
it's even more annoying because devs pretend to nerf tunneling/camping in the patchnote and then buff both
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Against a truly vile hard tunneling off hook killer they ignored old BT and swung through it. Now they do the same, and due to the poor design decision (kneejerk reaction dare I say) to make endurance no longer work during deep wound, OTR has even less value against those killers. Old DS at least forced a 60s slug or to eat the DS (with a resonable stun duration pre-nerf) on pickup. The only endurance source that shouldn't work during deep wound imo is DH.
Now you say even with a free endurance hit you as the tunneled survivor have some agency, I ask how? If you are hit off hook you are still one hit from being downed again, and if you got downed in the first place it was most likely due to a lack of resources. (eg. pallet or window in the area.) So I am hooked in an effective deadzone, and can use even less time to run to a safe area. My agency is comp-cornering, that is it. That isn't enjoyable. What if however I don't have OTR equipped, say I am new player or tome attempts for example. The secondary tunnel is based on how difficult it is for a killer to count to 5. I gotta say it isn't difficult for most people, and even then you can grab people on pallet vaults/medium vaults, restricting your options even further.
Since a killer knows that the off-hook survivor has a max of 2 health states as opposed to a healthy unhooking survivor, having a max of 3, the math checks out for tunnelling, but that doesn't make it fun for the victim. The problem is a lack of mechanically punishing undesired behavior, and mechanically rewarding desired behavior. At least old BBQ enhanced the desire to hook each survivor for the BP bonus. That helped decrease the amount of tunneling until everyone has been hooked once at least.
With so many killers taking advantage of the current bad design, you have to rely on the honor system for a fun match, and people have limited time. Limited time + 15s survivor queues + bad/unfun match = the "go next" mentality plaguing the game right now. Now I would also argue that limited time for killers in some cases exacerbates the issue. They will now be in a bad mood as they didn't get a real match (unless they are a sadist only enjoying the game when their opponents don't or can't), and will hard tunnel off hook to end the 3v1 match all the sooner, then maintain that mindset into the next match waiting another 10 minute queue. (Edit: fixed spelling)
Post edited by mizark3 on9 -
100% the attitude of survivors. Nothing else. The entire survivor community is just acting like babies and killing themselves for no reason.
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Nuthin. It's just a meme. I get good teammates, I get bad teammates. Sometimes I'm a good teammate, sometimes I'm not. Same as always.
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Buffing killers (lower weapon cooldowns, lower hit distance gain, higher gen time) led to much more abusable camping and tunneling. It is really hard to unorganized average team to counter it technically. So SoloQ now is "go Pro or go home", which is unacceptable for many simply because people come to play for fun at leisure time, not to win tournaments. Especially when they play survivor.
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My solo survivor experience got better. At first, the only thing that made it worse were the rage quitters but they have either stopped or are low enough in MMR I seldom have them as teammates anymore.
Tunnelers now pretty much throw the game when they tunnel me or anyone else who can run tiles and has OTR instead of Just being minor speed bumps. I'm also seeing less tunneling and camping as both are less effective than they were in the previous patch.
Part of this could be since I only used DH pre 6.1 when I was pipping up in Iri grades as it made escaping exponentially easier so the 6.1 changes hit me less than those that used it. I did use DS all the time but new OTR is far more effective than old DS.
As soon as you said OTR has less value than old BT, I immediately discounted everything else you said. New OTR is objectively better than old BT.
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Nerfed Survivors - DS, Self Care, IW, DH - All META perks that helped you in chases and to survive tunnelling.
Boosted Killers - Faster bloodlust, faster swing recovery, slower gens - some anti-gen perks were nerfed but they just switched to other anti-gen perks
Overall - Matchmaking even worse and because of above more quitting survivors (which I don't blame).
My basic experience is that I now run weaker builds, killers have no fears about tunnelling, and everyone is running Lethal Pursuer to just start pressuring and downing right out of the gate causing even more quits/DCs. Increase in Nurse running LP, IF. It still boggles my mind that devs have allowed Nurse to be so OP for so long. How do they not see that nurse can have a game won in 1-2 minutes. LP, Down, scream, Down, quit, next game.
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Camping in general got buffed with the extra 10 seconds per gen. That doesn't sound like a lot but when you consider that the hook timer didn't get buffed as well to compensate it makes a huge difference.
Other than that, they definitely did something with MMR after this patch. Never before I had to play with so many people who are still new to the game. Just today I had a match where I was being chased by a Pinhead and NOBODY bothered going for the box, probably because they don't even know how the killer works. I guess they are being way more lenient to compensate that way more people are playing killer now after the buffs.
I miss the first months of MMR. Matches felt good on both sides and solo queue was decent, even if everything I went against was Blights and Nurses lol.
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Ignore all of this. Completely biased untruth. Listen to the survivor mains. MMR doesn't give you good games so thats a lie. Survivor quits are still prevalent and tunnelling is more effective than ever. OTR is a good perk but requires all 4 survivors run it vs having maybe 1-2 run BT on a team. And still, it's just a single free hit just like BT was so if a killer camps and tunnels of hook its the same deal...
And TheSubstitute, yeah... you're going to attack me. I'm going to ignore you. Even if you honestly believe what you wrote... it's completely wrong and not worth arguing with you.
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As I just mentioned in a previous post, I've been playing solo que for the past few weeks. The problem is nothing different than it ever was, except now that killers can end chases a little bit faster, the problem is exacerbated.
- Killers recover from breaking pallets and swings faster than before, making chases shorter on average.
- This exacerbates the largest solo que problem out there, a lack of understanding on how to win without an SWF. I know if I'm going to win a solo que match by the end of the first chase. If I am in the chase and no gens pop and everyone is hiding when I get downed, we are going to lose 90% of the time. If a gen pops before the first hook and/or I am downed in that first chase and I see everyone on a gen, we are going to win 90% of the time.
As both killer and survivor I can tell when a solo que team is doomed. If they are hiding and afraid to get on that gen and stay on it, the killer will win. If they are gutting out a gen and willing to stick it to the point of being downed, they will often win. Nothing is a bigger tell to me as killer that I'm trouble with a solo team than when gens fly, and they are not trying to hide when I come around. Nothing tells me I'm going to lose as a survivor in solo que than when I'm downed and survivors on the other side of the map are hiding instead of doing gens. We are toast.
Honestly, survivor effort and focus are a bigger sign of whether survivors will win than the skill of the killer. Loop halfway decent but punch out gens at all costs and you will likely get 3+ escapes. Loop well but fear getting on a gen and you are looking at 3+ deaths.
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Sounds like a skill issue. I’m capable of looping a tunneling killer for a good while, especially with DH and OTR. The games where I get hard tunneled, I may die but all 3 of the others get out. A lot of the time my solo q teammates will come take a hit for me and I get out anyway. Lots of people aren’t experiencing what you’re talking about.
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The buffs to hit cool down and breaking speed are what made it worse to me. I never really ran any 2nd chance meta or get out of jail perks so overall my gameplay feels unchanged but the distance lost on a hit cuts many chases a lot shorter. Some of it may be the lack of DH for distance or opportunist killer players leaning more into proxy camping and hard tunneling but for me specifically it's the lack of distance gained when losing a health state.
To clarify I wouldn't say is broken, ruined, or completely unbearable, that's just what has made my solo queue games a little worse off.
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You are lacking in reading comprehension then. To rephrase I specified against killers that hard hit off hook, OTR has less value than the old equivalent DS. The old circumstance would be BT hit into DS. The new version is 2 hits, whether it is 1s or 79s after the hook for the first hit. If the killer is going to hard commit to the tunnel and not even pretend to wait out the 5/15s, then OTR is providing no value since you can't get endurance multiple times.
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Matchmaking and MMR being busted tbh, it's so bad now that you get paired with anyone. Half my games have people hiding in corners of the map or in lockers not doing anything. Then you look at their profile and they're brand new.
Then there is this new selfish attitude players have where they just leave you on the hook at 5 gens even when you have kinship and the killer isn't even camping. They've even started posting builds here. You can save them and everyone else on your team, then when you get hooked GG for you.
It is a sad state of affairs right now, and its the players responsible for the misery. whether its killers slugging( this is more annoying than being tunneled, atleast if I'm tunneled im in the next match and not laying on the ground for 5 minutes so they can get a 4k) or survivors just being selfish and/or not doing anything it has become a nightmare to play this game.
Playing killer side has become so easy I don't even find any joy in it anymore. Atleast half my games i just 2 hook everyone and let them do their gens and leave. I have had maybe 2 or 3 games where the survivors just demolished me since the update and I honestly wish i was getting destroyed again.
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Yep. As soon as they said "I'm also seeing less tunneling and camping", you knew they weren't playing soloQ and were just being disingenuous.
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Not sure how anyone can look at sweeping Killer buffs across the board and Survivor nerfs across the board and really sit there and think "How'd things get worse?" for the weakest role (solo survivor) in the game. They basically super buffed tunneling and camping while making the M1 simulator side of Survivors even longer and more obnoxious with the regression/gen slowdown meta. And more perks that played into survivor/killer interaction were nerfed (DS and DH) to even further promote M1 and W... that's all you do.
They basically bowed down to the killer main mindset for a patch and gutted survivor side and buffed killer side. Some of the changes were needed or wouldn't be as bad on their own. But it was way too much at once. And how does anyone still excuse Blight, Nurse, and Spirit? These killers were doing swell before this patch, so why are they allowed to be so strong still?
I barely play now as I truly find VHS more engaging, but it clearly has it's own issues going on over there. The Wesker addition got me to come back. I didn't even get to play him though, Killer took too long to get matches and I had Weskers begging for longer matches cause they sat waiting for lobbies for 30 minutes. I had longer Q's as Killer on live as well... played Trickster and GF... didn't play slowdown perks... played nice... and still was scoring 2Ks not even going for Kills. Only when I did Twins did I fail and that was cause I don't know the Garden map at all, so I got loss in the building quite a few times. Not sure how all the Blights, Nurses, and Spirits on this board are still so bad that they lose more than they win. It's quite remarkable honestly. But alas, "skill" is only a Survivor issue on here and every Killer who loses a match was abused, neglected, and couldn't handle the mountain of stress that the Dev team has placed on them... please nerf Prove Thyself, Medkits, and the W key. Please and thank you, after those are taken care of we'll discuss nerfing Sprint Burst, Urban Evasion, and Ace... who should be as loud as Jane when injured cause it's not fair I couldn't hear him.
Also it's funny to see some of the circus shows the usual users on here put on to justify things. Whenever BBQ was questioned in power level, they always claimed they ONLY used it for the BPs. Guess what perk is still often used? BBQ. I thought the perk was fine after the locker aspect came into play, but it clearly wasn't used only for the BPs like so many high mobility killers try to pretend. Remember how IW was the answer to if you find Spirit overpowered? Now it's dumpster tier and was evidently too strong against the Killer bouncing around S and A tier. Cause got to keep the mostly naked school girl over tuned to promote skin sells to... people who like that type of motif.
And poor Calm Spirit. The 5 people who used it to counter Doctor were clearly using a secretly overpowered and busted meta.
So like for the longest, the only good Survivor perks that came out were Circle of Healing and MOM. Which were both attached to paragraphs for Survivor only. Everyone else released with D tier perks, C at best. And people wonder why Survivors had a meta consisting of OG perks pretty much since the dawn of time. Circle Of Healing was the only one that really shook things up, and I say that despite saying Killers stomping the damn boon totem should of the destroyed the totem from the get go and never been tagged onto a perk.
DBD is at an interesting new domain as Killers are more played than Survivors. Despite how many are pushing for more sweeping Survivor nerfs and Killer buffs, I'd wager this actually should be quite alarming on the contrast. You need 4 Survivors for every Killer. A shortage of either shouldn't be celebrated, but a shortage of the mass side... could quickly sink the ship if the whole isn't plugged.
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I think 5 factors might have contributed to SoloQ getting worse:
- Awful matchmaking. If a survivor is not helping their team it creates a ton of slack that the rest of the team has to pick up and against a decent (or a nasty tunneling & camping) killer it's usually a 3 or 4K.
- Removal of anti-tunneling and anti-camping incentives present in BBQ & Chili and Pain Resonance. (Old Pain Res gave a notification on the affected gen which helped get killers away from hooked survivors.) Tunneling and camping still happened before but it happens even more now.
- 7k (up from 5k) bloodpoints for escaping increases the incentive for survivors to leave teammates to die rather than risk themselves to save them.
- DbD and most of its DLCs recently went on sale for 50% off on almost all platforms. I think this helped prop up player numbers but it exacerbated the matchmaking issue. Many experienced survivors have burned out and stopped playing or switched to killer and more noobs are filling out the teams in the SoloQ.
- A general lack of hope in the direction DbD is heading, and many believing the mid-chapter made the game worse. While there will always be some that love DbD, I think they are far outnumbered by people who are pessimistic about DbD. It's easier to be pessimistic about DbD because of its many, many glaring issues that can be seen as one becomes more experienced with the game. Also, DbD's failure to retain a growing player base over the last 2 years supports this. If the last time a person played DbD they had a bad time then they are more likely to assume that this time when they give it another chance they are going to have a bad time again. If more people were optimistic about DbD it would lead to better games; they'd be more likely to give it their best shot rather than give up.
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Honestly it just seems like you're being deliberately obtuse.
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Kinda rude.
I'm asking honestly, because my experiences don't match up with a popular sentiment. This thread has been quite productive so far, I got some decent indications of what might lead people to say solo queue got worse when my experiences don't match up at all!
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People have been talking about this topic endlessly since all these changes were in the PTB. If you simply disagreed with the opinion that solo is worse, then fine, I think you're wrong but everyone's entitled to their opinion.
But that you are pretty active on these forums and have somehow been unable to grasp any of the many, many complaints about the patch's negative effects on solo players, to me, shows that you are simply choosing not to understand because it doesn't suit you.
Some people on the forums seem to play devil's advocate a lot and I don't think it's sincere.
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Yes, you can tell from the way I have nearly every single survivor achievement including Left For Dead I've obviously never played solo queue.
Those last 3 survivor achievements I should have in the next couple of weeks. Perhaps you should look at your own gameplay and try to adapt rather than attempting to insinuate people are being disingenuous.
OTR hit into DS is better now simply because of the 7% haste boost and more common since I can guarantee I have OTR rather than gambling on BT. Also, DS did nothing to keep me silent and I can also run both OTR and DS if I'd like. I have but the 60 second duration of DS usually runs out before I get dropped and picked up with OTR so I don't usually find it useful.
I don't have an issue with DS being reverted back and buffed to work on both hook states but OTR works much better than old DS.
The only way that the Killer can hit straight off hook now anyway is if they're facecamping. As soon as the RE2 chapter comes out Reassurance will come into play and that will reduce the effectiveness of that strategy.
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It doesn't only work on camping, it can also work when goes for the hook trade but the killer doesn't go for the unhooking survivor. It also works against attempted 59s rescues. It also works when people take a hit while injured and complete the unhook action through lag. Each of those circumstances are far from that uncommon.
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OTR works in the first case. For the second, unless I'm being tunneled, why am I waiting 59 seconds before touching a gen? I'd rather not go down for longer than 60 seconds which OTR helps with and on both hook states.
Lag circumventing game mechanics is not something I'd use nor is it reliable enough to bet on.
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I think @edgarpoop brought up a really good point about the direction the meta has shifted for killers.
Previously, the meta was Ruin/Undying, which meant the survivor counter was finding 2 hex totems--no coordination needed to counterplay a Killer's primary means of gen regression.
Now, the meta is Pain Resonance, Overcharge, Eruption, Call of Brine, and DMS--the counterplay of which requires survivors to immediately stop their teammate's regressing gen while they take the chase elsewhere. Without coordination, many gens are regressing over 50% of their progress in half the time it took to make that progress.
In many ways, the new gen regression combo feels more opressive than the Ruin meta, as the counterplay is more dependent on teammates' situational awareness and decision-making skills.
Compound this meta shift with the fact that camping & tunneling were made stronger by proxy of other changes, and it starts to become evident why solo survivors are having a worse time than before the mid-chapter.
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Forgot to quote you above, sorry. Here are my achievements in Dbd below. It's kind of hard to not play solo queue and have nearly all of the survivor achievements. From you quoting old meta I'm pretty sure your problems are stemming from an unwillingness to adapt to change. That would be frustrating but you shouldn't try to take it out on people who have adapted and like the patch. Perhaps you should just accept that while some people are struggling others aren't? Game experiences are different for different people and, as with @jesterkind , my experiences are quite a bit different from the doomsayers.
I'll put on the screenshots again in case you don't want to look in the previous posts for them. If I supposedly don't play survivor then please explain how I was able to get so many of the them including the hardest ones?
Those are the only survivor achievements I have left but those are easy to get with specific builds that, fortunately, are quite good after 6.1. In the last two weeks, I've decided to finish off my achievements so the survivor ones should be done shortly. The Huntress one hopefully before I hit retirement age.
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I can agree that the DS nerf was unneeded and uncalled for, but aren't you forgetting about the huge buff that OTR received here? When it comes to anti tunnel, I would dare argue it's even better than old DS was.
As for DH, that needed to go. DH wasn't the "soloQ saviour", as you put it, but actually very actively played a big role in making the game hideously miserable for anyone who wanted to play as Killer. It was a lot better at killing the game than at saving it, so portraying it like that is a very onesided view of it. Also I've been playing soloQ with SB for years now and had a pretty good escape rate, it certainly wasn't needed.
And MMR being dysfunctional is not a new thing either, they've been making it significantly less accurate over the span of multiple updates - most likely as a form of damage control, considering the disaster we had when they released it.
I'm not saying soloQ was in a good spot or anything, but it's really not much worse off than it was before - mainly because it's pretty much been rock bottom already. SoloQ has always been a coinflip on whether your teammates have read the "how to repair a generator in DbD" manual or not, not much has changed in that regard.
Sure, if you get a bad coinflip and your team mates in total have less than a third of your playtime, you get stomped much harder than you would have previously - but the outcome is the same as pre patch: you either get lucky with hatch or you die.
I think the bigger issue is MMR in general. The thing with MMR in this game is, that it is incapable of actually seeing and rewarding good plays. Sure in an SWF you might not see that too much because the group consistently performs at a certain level, but it is very noticeable in soloQ - because your victory is based on your team. So even if you played like a god that game, if your teammates were chilling in lockers all with 3 idle crows, you will lose. And MMR will punish you for that, which will result in you keep getting players like the ones that just caused you to lose, resulting in more losses. And while I did say MMR was pretty inaccurate, it is still noticeable and it will put you in this hole after just a few bad games - and escaping this downward spiral in soloQ is incredibly hard.
SoloQ needs a significant amount of imrpovements all around, but that has been the case for about 6 years now, it's nothing new. It's not like the new update "killed soloQ", it has been dead since long before that.
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To further the point on the new meta gen regression: Eruption counterplay doesn't really exist for solo survivors. A player can't even hop in a locker to avoid the M1 proc like they can with Jolt. I can't comm that I'm about to go down so people can get off gens. It feels so contrived.
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Perhaps I was unclear, OTR doesn't work in any of those cases (beyond the aura read and Iron Will) as the basekit BT procs the endurance and sets you in deep wound. In each scenario OTR endurance is denied by the killer hitting the survivor immediately off of hook, not OTR being active on the person attempting rescues. Each circumstance I laid out is not impossible nor too improbable. Even if the killer counts to 5 before hitting an unhooked survivor, they then know due to deep wound no more endurance surprises are possible, and is nearly no different than current or old BT in terms of anti-tunnel potential against those killers committing to the hard tunnel, or simply farming an extra STBFL stack.
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Okay, your issue is with the basekit BT being too weak. That I completely agree with. I think basekit BT should be 10 seconds long with the BT perk stacking haste and time on it and, to prevent abuse from both sides, collision detection on the unhooked survivor should be disabled for 10 seconds. That way, the unhooked survivor can't force a body block for the unhooker and the Killer can't bodyblock the unhooked survivor to prevent them from reaching a tile. Basekit BT could definitely use a buff like that in my opinion.
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People have been mentioning that they think solo queue got worse, but nine times out of ten - at least that I've seen, I'm not trawling the forums 24/7 - they don't actually back up why they think that. It's mentioned in passing as though it's an objective truth, and a bunch of people agree, and not much else is said on the topic.
To be clear, I'm not playing devil's advocate to the idea that solo queue isn't substantially worse off. I wholeheartedly and sincerely agree with that statement.
I already knew some of the knee-jerk reactions from when the patch first hit, but I wanted to see if that had changed and new arguments had formed. I didn't expect to have my mind changed, but I wanted to understand the thought process behind the opposing argument a little better - there might've been something I missed, and just because there wasn't doesn't make my question purposefully obtuse.
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The worst part of solo queue will always be; other survivors.
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I would say that the overall Killer chase power increase AND the meta shift have caused Solo Q to go down the drain even more.
It seems to me that most of the meta perks, currently, function at their best when up against Solo Q teammates. Overcharge is extremely difficult when you don't know about it. Eruption has basically zero counterplay in Solo Q. PR, Call of Brine, ect ect all thrive on lack of communication.
Likewise, the overall Killer buffs have buffed Killers chase potential. Survivors gain less distance through both a reduction in speed after being hit AND from the Killer gaining two stacks of STBFL basekit. This, coupled with faster pallet breaking speeds and the removal of DH for distance and DS, has massively nerfed Survivors chase potential.
Finally, it's now very easy and very rewarding to either camp the first person you down or to just tunnel them out of the game. 5 seconds of basekit BT is meaningless and most Killers will hit you straight off of hook anyways. In a lot of spots, you don't get enough distance to make it to a good tile. DS got omega-nerfed and it's essentially useless against most Killers. OTR is good, assuming the Killer doesn't hit you right after you get unhooked. The counter to hard tunneling and facecamping is to either coordinate a save/bodyblock or to slam gens. Neither of these are remotely feasible in Solo Q.
With all of these things combined, everyone except for 4-mans got hit very hard in the last patch.
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True before I have to calculate my hooks and dh/ds but now I can brainlessly go after unhooked usually they don't even have otr. If I want to play nice then I leave unhooked alone. I still avoid outright tunneling one out but it's so easy now so you have to really avoid it.
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I would go as far as having BT endurance not giving deep wound when activated. The killer knows what they are doing, and if the survivor has a different source of endurance they can use that only in this anti-tunnel aspect. But I would agree it needs to drop collision for the duration if it could be used to bodyblock extra hits.
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I wouldn't have an issue either with basekit BT not giving deep wounds. It's a short duration and it's supposed to be an anti-tunneling tool but it doesn't go far enough. If collision were dropped the only reason, other than tunneling, to hit the unhooked survivor would be to have the unhooked survivor mend and waste time that way but most times it would be an attempt to tunnel. Rather than only giving a half hearted counter I say go full out and buff basekit BT. I'm also quite good with DS being 5 seconds again on top of that and both hook states.
Getting rid of unhealthy gameplay and then rebalancing around healthy gameplay is a good idea in my opinion.
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Ok specifics, hard tunnelling has been buffed due to endurance not being stackable, and Perk based incentives (BBQ) and disincentives (DS) being nerfed. In an older tunneling example BT would be procced and then you could still DS. Now you have to use OTR but that is mutually exclusive with BT. Camping has been buffed because 50 extra gen seconds need to be completed, so the survivors lose that much more precious time as Solo-Q members have to each individually find out about camping before committing to spreading on gens instead.
As far as anecdotal evidence I have 3 friends that I used to regularly play the game with. One of them pretty much hard quit, and the other two only seem to want to check it back out after Wesker comes out, but not before. The one who hard quit almost consistently (25-50% of matches) got facecamped or hard tunneled off hook every match we played together. Some of the matches someone else ran the killer quite well and then he got caught, the killer clearly being frustrated with being ran by my other friend or myself. Other matches he got chased and caught first and still had the same problem.
The basekit worst case scenarios were buffed in the patch that was proclaiming to address them. (Camping and Tunnelling) I will say that playing killer just feels better, but that doesn't stop bad apples from spoiling matches for others. Whether that is quitting early or hard tunneling or camping.
Edit: Also when you are one side and get a negative experience from the other side, your patience is notably dropped for BS. I understand having no desire to play against 5 Blight/Nurse matches in a row, and with 5-15s survivor queue times survivors have no incentive to sit through a match they have no reason to. They can die on first hook and just queue again with effectively no penalty.
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