How would you rework Michael
A while ago I did one for the nurse today I'm doing one for what "I think" the worst killer is the shape
There is only 1 requirement you must keep his stalking mechanic add anything you want or even change what happens when he reaches t3
Have fun
Comments
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So considering he is the only killer in the game that can actually RUN OUT of his power, my idea is that once a survivor reaches "red tier" stalk, you are still able to stalk them but at a reduced 50% rate. That way he can't actually be a powerless killer near the end of the match.
Oh and also completely rebalance tombstone piece, fragrant tuft of hair etc
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Honestly, just add a t4 and remove his kill-addons, and if he gets t4 by stalking 3 full survivors in total (which is what itd take), he gets a super unique terror radius music and can insta-kill/mori any survivor he downs.
Not much else you can really do with him imo.
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Any ideas what you could make those add-ons do or just a numbers tweak?
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Ohh okay bold mechanic but worthy of fully stalking 3 surivors is it still of a timer or dose the timer start at t3
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Tombstone lets you mori a survivor that is "red tier" stalk, that way you can't immediately kill someone who hasn't even been chased all match.
Fragrant tuft of hair keep the same, but it can't be combo'd with his mori addons, similar to Hutnress' iridescent no longer working with the increased hatchet addons
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No more running out of stalk and when not in LOS of anyone gains a haste effect.
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Also like this idea the haste idea could make some interesting plays or make some safe loops need to be dropped early
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More benifits to tier 3 i would say.
Just expose and a slightly longer lunge and vault speed isn't enough for the work you have to do for it.
Change his kill addons so you can kill people who are fully stalked instead of being able to kill anybody in tier 3.
Punish the survivor who gave him the stalk not the random teammate who hasen't seen myers untill they get insta gibbed
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Easy, I would make Infinite Evil his base ability and replace that red add-on with something else. Also tweak Vanity Mirror so it doesn’t take longer to charge up to Evil 2 after that change versus how long it takes to get to Evil 2 in the current system.
I find the least fun way to play Meyers is his normal base kit, but his variant playstyle add-ons of Infinite Evil and the Mirrors and Tombstones are really enjoyable! 😄 So if I were to pick one of those to replace his base kit, I’d go with Inifinite Evil since in a sense it’s the most like his normal current style and the most compatible with his other add-ons.
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Literally unstoppable during t3, no pallet stuns, no flashlights but doesnt get free exposed on survivors. Just a little faster vaulting and just a lil faster walking during t3.
After hooking each survivor once, can mori the obsession like tombstone.
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This is how I would do it.
Doesn't seem right to punish Meg with the Mori, just because Ace teabagged Myers from the other side of a pallet until Myers reached T3.
Also, with the upcoming perk Reassurance, I think I'd like to see Myers able to mori a survivor from T2, if he has managed to max out stalk on them. I texpect killers will be turning to slug builds as some survivors aim to abuse the Reassurance timer, making mori killers like Myers and Sadako slightly more appealing after 6.2.0
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Basekit Mirror that grows with tier. Make mirror addons a buff to the range. Buff Stalking base speed. Since T1 is so slow and there's reduced lunge, a hit by T1 should inflict Deep Wounds. You had to be right up in their business and have some element of surprise so you could plan the hit. T3 reduces pallet stun times to about half because then it'd actually be scary
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- Remove all debuffs in Tier 1 and make him M1 Killer in Tier 1 without any terror radius for up to 60 seconds, where from that point, if he allready didn't stalk enough points to reach next tier, he will auto tier up to level 2.
- You can stalk Survivors forever (no running out of power)
- Rework (aka remove) all Instakill addons
- While in Tier 2 & Tier 3, press special action button to gain Undetecteble Status Effect for the next 10 seconds (you can sneak up to people or use it to make chases harder). It has a cooldown of 60 seconds.
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I'm not sure the best way to go about reworking his base kit but I definitely think he needs to be buffed at base and addons like tuft of hair and tombstone needs to be completely changed because unlimited tier-3 mori Myers is probably the most unfun thing to play against if you're actually trying to rank up.
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Ohh I also like this idea kinda like a oni but for stealth I assume that stalking is the same
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Removing the insta-kill aspect is not an option as that is kind of his thing. The fact that The Entity can't control him is particularly interesting, to me at least.
How I'd change things, as others have said, there should be no limit on how much someone can be stalked. Some ideas that were said I rather like and will use here. Once someone's stalk aura turns red you will be able to stalk at 50% efficiency only. Their Stalk Aura will regenerate over time, eventually back to full. The regeneration will pause for X amount of time if stalked again.
For Tombstone Piece, I'd mostly leave as is...except, You can only stalk the obsession. Once you mori someone you are dropped all the way back down to tier 1 and are locked there. You can get that early kill if you want...but you are handicapping yourself for the rest of the game. (Though I think I might prefer the only being able to mori someone with red aura idea instead)
Tuft of Hair is fine as is but, with the above changes, you would be unable to build your stalk off of anyone whose aura becomes red. Getting a mori or sacrifice by any means while in tier 3 using this add-on will drop you back down to 2. Additionally, survivors inside your terror radius will receive bonus bloodpoints to their survival category for every X amount of time they have not been hit while you are tier 3. (Either this or simply just lower his movement speed a bit in tier 3 while using this add-on.)
The rest are fine as is. Though I'd personally prefer it if Scratched Mirror was a lower rarity as that is the most fun Myers to face and play against...and I'd just like to see it used more.
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Simple answer: I wouldn't.
A rework implies deleting everything currently available and replacing it with something completely new, which is what happened to Freddy. Myers definitely doesn't need this.
Here's a couple of changes I'd like to see though:
- make the tier up mechanic occur via a button press instead of automatically happening when the stalk meter is filled
- Survivors replenish available stalk on them, the longer they are not being stalked
Outside of that, all I'd do is to buff some more of his basestats during Tier 3, such as an increased movementspeed, stun recovery and interaction speed (kicking a pallet for example) to make him more of a threat and we're good.
Also, of course, an Add On rework. I like the general idea behind Tombstone, but there need to be more restrictions set in place - and Tombstone piece needs to go alltogether. Do NOT touch Vanity Mirror or Scratched Mirror.
Is that gonna make him a new Nurse or Blight? No. He's probaply still gonna be relatively weak, but not every Killer needs to be S or A Tier in tierlists to be fine. Myers has a simple concept that works and fits his character extremely well, I see no issues with that.
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I wouldn't really change Myers. Not every killer has to be strong in this game.
His Tombstone Piece has got to go though. The fact that he can just delete a survivor from the game in the first minute is a bad holdover from long bygone era of DbD, from a time when if a killer brought a mori you actually got nervous.
Maybe buff his chase music: https://youtu.be/ZC-KXUAbQng
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My favorite way to play him is with Vanity Mirror and Dead Rabbit, pair that with the Monitor perk and you'll have a lot of fun. Because you'll end up in T2 rather quickly and you don't have to worry about getting stalk anymore.
Either way, I have a pretty complex tweak in mind:
I would like to see the tiers transferred to the survivors. In that way, a survivor that plays well and is very cautious, can't suffer because some other survivor has let Michael stalk freely. So here's my idea:
Michael starts Undetectable, and remains like that until he gets a hit or puts a survivor into T2 by stalking him. Now the tiers should have individual effects as well as collective effects in case all survivors hit T2, then if all survivors hit T3, also once a survivor gets in a tier, it is permanent.
All survivors start at T1 which does nothing.
When a survivor hits T2, he becomes scared for his life so he only feels safe around other people, thus he becomes Oblivious when he's not in the proximity of another survivor. When all survivors hit T2 they become Oblivious even if together, they also start suffering from Blindness.
If a survivor gets fully stalked, on top of the T2 debuffs he will become Hindered and Exhausted. If all survivors hit T3 (which will rarely ever happen) Myers can just kill them by hand on top of the other debuffs.
This will open up so many possibilities. Stalking will feel more powerful and also more tactical, cause you might want to use it either to collectively get everyone into T2, or get one to T3 faster. This will also make the survivors that got stalked change the way they play and stick around others.
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I would delete his instakill addons and then delete tier 1, just make him start in tier 2 and he's more similar to ghostface
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M1 with 115% would be bit too much but maybe 110% would be fine but other than that I like you suggestion his lunge should also be normal in t1 would make scratched mirror better. I think he also could have 120% speed in tier 3.
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In the next update, we plan on making the following changes to The Shape's kit:
power
As one of our oldest killers, The Shape's power was created in a very different time of DBD, and our initial vision for DBD has shifted considerably. Therefore, we will be changing how his base power works, in order to bring him in-line with our other killers.
- Evil Within now has 2 power tiers, with Tier 2 becoming Tier 1 and Tier 3 becoming Tier 2. Current Tier 1 of Evil Within, how The Shape begins a trial, we feel is outdated. Instead, The Shape will receive 60 seconds of Undetectable upon beginning a trial. This 60 second window is cut short if The Shape enters Tier 3.
- The Shape now has a 32m terror radius in Tier 2. We feel the need to standardise his kit with other killers, to make the new-player experience much easier and also to make balancing exterior aspects of the game, such as perks and maps, much easier. However, we appreciate that players enjoyed that aspect of his kit, so as part of his power his Terror Radius will slowly expand outwards to the 32m mark over the course of 60 seconds. This 60 second window begins after the Undetectable window, and similarly is also cancelled if The Shape enters Tier 3 before the 60 seconds is up.
- The Shape is now able to stalk fully-drained Survivors. One common point of complaint is how it was impossible to get your power from the same Survivor. The Shape will now be able to stalk a fully-drained Survivor at 50% of the regular rate.
- Similarly to the above change, Survivors will also slowly regenerate their stalk, rewarding The Shape for spreading damage across multiple targets instead of hyper-focusing on one Survivor, which we hope will help improve the experience of facing The Shape. After not being stalked for 20 seconds, a Survivor will begin to regenerate their stalk at 0.25% each second.
- Finally, The Shape is now unable to "99" his Tier 3. When not stalking, the power meter will slowly drain back down to empty. One very common complaint, particularly in solo queue, was that teammates could "feed" The Shape's power, and they would be punished despite playing well against him. Having made it substantially easier to reach Tier 3, and by allowing fully-stalked Survivors to regenerate stalk and also be stalked, we feel this change is fair and will hopefully reduce frustration with players on both sides. Killers will now no-longer accidentally use a power they were hoping to save, and Survivors will now no longer feel unfairly punished for mistakes of random players.
add-ons
Again, as one of our oldest killers, The Shape has some outdated add-ons we no longer feel are part of DBD. Therefore, we will be making the following changes:
- Boyfriend's Memo: The Shape does not begin the Trial while Undetactable. Gain 100% bonus bloodpoints in the Deviousness Category.
- Blond Hair: Now extends the duration of Tier 2.
- Reflective Fragment: Now activates during Tier 1.
- Glass Fragment: The Shape's Terror Radius no longer slowly expands to 32m. Increase the duration of the Undetectable Status Effect by 30 seconds.
- Hair Brush: Now extends the duration of Tier 2.
- Dead Rabbit: Decreases The Shape's Terror Radius in Tier 1 by 8m. Increases The Shape's Terror Radius in Tier 2 by 8m.
- Mirror Shard: Now activates during Tier 1.
- Judith's Journal: Increase the rate Survivors regenerate stalk by 100%.
- Hair Bow: Now extends the duration of Tier 2.
- Vanity Mirror: Now activates during Tier 1, and prevents The Shape from achieving Tier 2.
- Tombstone Piece: Fully-drained Survivors can be stalked at 75% rate.
- Lock of Hair: Now extends the duration of Tier 2.
- Scratched Mirror: Reduces the amount that Evil Within Tier 1 regresses at by 100%.
- Judith's Tombstone: Fully-drained Survivors can be stalked at 100% rate.
- Fragrant Tuft of Hair: Now extends the duration of Tier 2 (indefinitely).
We hope these changes will both improve the experience when playing as and against The Shape, while also streamlining him with more modern killer powers. We will be tweaking numbers based upon feedback, so please send it to us via our official communication channels.
achievements
Finally, as some may notice, we have reworked Tombstone Piece and Judith's Tombstone, making the current "Evil Incarnate" achievement impossible to achieve. As such, we will be reworking the achievement to the new "Evil Never Rests" achievement:
"In a public match, achieve the TIER II Evil Within by stalking a fully-stalked Survivor, and then kill them by your own hand within 60 seconds."
We are well aware of how difficult this achievement was to get, and so will understand if players feel annoyed by this being changed after they have worked so hard to gain it. Therefore, any players who have this achievement prior to the next update releasing will receive an exclusive Judith's Tombstone Charm and 50000 Bloodpoints to compensate for their troubles. This Charm will only return if this achievement changes again.
Post edited by GoodBoyKaru on2 -
Overall, this is a very good rework idea. If anything it might be a bit of an overbuff at the cost of making his addons boring.
I think 50% stalk from fully stalked survivors is definitely too much, especially given the fact that survivors can also regenerate their stalk. How quickly and under what conditions does their stalk regenerate?
How quickly would his stalk deplete? I think it should take 20 seconds for it to deplete and it can't deplete past 50%.
As for the addon changes:
- There are too many addons (5) there that "extend the duration of Tier 2."
- Scratched Mirror should play as it was with 105% movement speed. It wasn't overpowered and a lot of players enjoy playing as and against it. I wouldn't want to see it pairing with Boyfriend Memo either unless the Scratched Mirror's lunge got buffed to compensate since the rest of your addons would be useless with it anyway. Your Vanity Mirror is not a substitute for this.
- Fragrant Tuft of Hair should still be perma-Exposed at the cost of having to stalk more. Teams that don't feed him can counter it.
- Judith's Tombstone shouldn't change either since it isn't even that strong unless someone actually feeds him and really is only viable along with the Tuft.
How would that achievement be achieved? Since your Myers can't tombstone they'd have to use an Ebony Mori. They'd have to 2-hook everyone and then manage to full stalk them before Mori-ing them. I think this could be even harder to do than Evil Incarnate and still be easily disrupted by cantankerous survivors.
Still this could be a great start to a Myers rework, I can tell you put some thought into it!
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Okay to answer a few things here:
I think 50% stalk from fully stalked survivors is definitely too much, especially given the fact that survivors can also regenerate their stalk. How quickly and under what conditions does their stalk regenerate?
I don't think 50% is too much, tbh, when considering that in my mind his power could fall back down to 0% charged if it isn't used. It's a commit or lose it type of thing, or else it's a "spend ages constantly keeping it topped up" sort of thing which would both be awkward and inefficient. Allowing it at 50% really keeps the use it or lose it aspect in my mind. Of course, I could also be entirely wrong- I'd need to have a build to mess around with it however I want to really find out how it feels to use, and since I'm not a dev I don't have access to a playground; the numbers could definitely be tweaked around.
As for regeneration, let's just say that survivors can have up to 100 charges of stalk. I don't know the exact amount, because I don't know the exact mechanics of his power, but if need be substitute charges for percent. After not being stalked for a certain period of time- I don't know how long and would again need some testing to figure out a good amount for this, but let's just say 20 seconds as a base- then a survivor begins to regenerate their stalk at a rate of 0.25 charges per second. This happens regardless of if a survivor was completely sucked dry or left nearly full- it's always 0.25 charges per second, meaning that to get back to being completely full it would take 400 seconds. Of course, you don't need a survivor to be fully stalked, especially with being able to stalk fully-drained survivors, and it would still incentivise spreading the Myers love which I think would help form a healthier gameplay cycle than hyperfocusing on one survivor specifically. The 20 second base timer just means that Myers can't on-and-off stalk in a chase and still get his power when combined with the decay.
There are too many addons (5) there that "extend the duration of Tier 2."
Every add-on that extends the duration of Tier 3 at the moment was included, and the wording changed to extend the duration of Tier 2. There's one add-on per tier, and there's 5 tiers, including Fragrant Tuft of Hair. Because I removed Tier 1 and made Tier 3 into Tier 2, then I included them all as a change to increase the duration of Tier 2, since that's just what there is on live.
Fragrant Tuft of Hair should still be perma-Exposed at the cost of having to stalk more. Teams that don't feed him can counter it.
It would, and I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. As I mentioned above, as Tier 3 was changed to Tier 2, the wording of the add-on was also changed to extend the duration of Tier 2 (indefinitely).
Scratched Mirror should play as it was with 105% movement speed. It wasn't overpowered and a lot of players enjoy playing as and against it. I wouldn't want to see it pairing with Boyfriend Memo either unless the Scratched Mirror's lunge got buffed to compensate since the rest of your addons would be useless with it anyway. Your Vanity Mirror is not a substitute for this.
I'm going to be 100% honest with you, I absolutely hate Scratched Mirror and find it horifically dull to play as and against. I've dealt with it so often that not even the jumpscares of a random Myers from around a wall feel scary anymore, and if anything it's just kind of annoying, because the map offering is always Lerys and they always have identical perk builds and play the exact same way (not like there's any other way to play Scratched Mirror, because the add-on is a meme). Any chance I had to remove it I would take, and since I reduced the amount of tiers of Evil Within, I essentially gave Vanity Mirror a facelift and replaced Scratched Mirror.
That said, I do think you're forgetting that when I mention Tier 1 within the add-ons, I mean current Tier 2 with some added Undetectable and a larger Terror Radius. So that tiny lunge of current Tier 1 Myers wouldn't exist anymore. My least favourite part about his entire kit is current Tier 1, so I jumped at the chance to delete it ASAP, and getting rid of Scratched Mirror was an added bonus.
How would that achievement be achieved? Since your Myers can't tombstone they'd have to use an Ebony Mori. They'd have to 2-hook everyone and then manage to full stalk them before Mori-ing them. I think this could be even harder to do than Evil Incarnate and still be easily disrupted by cantankerous survivors.
Not really, any mori would work. Read the wording again.
To get this achievement, you must:
- Achieve Tier 2 (current Tier 3) by stalking a survivor who has been fully-drained. This means you'd be stalking at ~50% effectiveness without a Tombstone offering, but it doesn't need them to be stalked from 0-100 while fully-drained, just that the survivor you tier up from is fully-drained when you tier up. In theory, you could stalk 99% at full speed, and the final 1% would only need to be at the reduced speed.
- From there, down the survivor you tiered up from. This is where Scratched Mirror would be useful, allowing you to pocket your Tier 2 a lot better and so can use it when you're closer. Alternatively, provided you tier up from a fully-stalked survivor, Fragrant Tuft of Hair would work since it would give you as much time as you need.
- Within 60 seconds of downing this survivor, kill them by your own hand. This could be via the effects of Hex: Devour Hope, Rancor, an Ivory Mori, an Ebony Mori, or even a Cypress Mori.
- Moreover, it doesn't have to be during Tier 2 that you mori them- just that you do so after downing them during the same Tier 2 when they were fully-stalked, if that makes sense? Say you got the first part of the achievement during your first stalk, but only got the kill part on your fourth, you'd still get the achievement. Does that make sense?
I hope this helped clear up some questions/issues you had with it, and thank you for the compliment! I tried my best to think of the biggest complaints both sides have with his power (Tier 1, clunky, solo) and address them, and then ditched Scratched Mirror as a bonus because of my personal vendetta. I've edited my original comment slightly to help clear up the Fragrant Tuft of Hair issue.
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I see why you would want to be able to use a test-build to tweak things because I don't see how this Myers could spread the love around when he has a stalk-meter that decays. There would have to a grace period after stalking before the decay begins. I keep imagining the scenario where he loses a survivor just before he manages to pop Tier 2 and his stalk-meter starts to rapidly decay while he desperately searches for another survivor so he can save what's left. It'd be like Trickster losing laceration but worse since he has no anti-loop.
Honestly I don't enjoy playing against Scratched Mirror either, it really sucks as a SoloQ. I sometimes use the Mirror myself and have a little fun. Old Tier 1 could be built into that addon so it stays weak. I know some people who love being jump-scared and I even know a streamer that calls himself a Mirror Myers Main. I definitely believe it has its place in DbD and it would be the only holdover of old Tier 1. Without Scratched Mirror and Tier 1 I think most people wouldn't even consider Myers a stealth killer anymore even with the stuff you added at the beginning of the match. Let's just agree to disagree on this point.
Maybe Myers could have an addon that lets him (slowly) walk through breakable walls, wouldn't that be scary?
For Evil Never Rests, yep, I definitely read that wrong and assumed it was 4 survivors. Now the compensation makes sense.
Would it make him too strong?
Thought provoking stuff!
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Honestly I'd rather that they wouldn't rework him. He's a very old killer but he's an interesting one because it makes for a neat little time capsule and as annoying as tombstone add-ons are I honestly don't see them all that often when I do go against him. Plus they're an oddly fitting thing for him his whole deal is that Myer does what he wants. Reworking Myers while making him better is going to end up killing any unique aspect about him and I don't want that.
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