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Why Devs punish killer for tunneling instead of incentivize mixed hook?
With the next update, the basekit bt will be increased to 10 seconds, and 10% of haste, with bt this will be 20 seconds, that it is really unfun in my opinion. Devs want to punish killer for tunneling and camping, but they never asked themselves "Why killers camp and tunnel?".
The answer is easy: because in high MMR is the only tactics accepted to win against 90% of the survs, because the insane gen speed (caused also by prove thyself, that needs a huge nerf).
So I have a question: why Devs continue to find ways to punish killers for tunneling, instead of find ways to incentivize mixed hooks?
In my opinion, they could make that more survs alive, less gen speed, less survs alive, more gen speed. This will fix tunneling, because you don't want a surv dead early game, because it would mean giving survs more gen speed. At the same time, you don't want to camp for the same reason, if you kill someone early game you find yourself with survs that do gens quicker.
Comments
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4 man slug with plenty of slowdown perks to make it even easier.
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An increase of this tactic; won't that be fun for all.
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I do think they could make tunneling less of a thing if they just added another, lets say 500 hook points perk hook if you do different survivors each time. It would also make it actually possible to hit the new 10k cap on sacrifice where as it currently is not possible to get.
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What is the punishing?
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yupp. Reminder Devs never ever played killer once. Best uinstall. Lots of games just updated and more are coming out next month. no incentive to play Killers at all anymore.
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What’s the point of bp if the game itself isn’t fun? They need to do a all out map tile rework for each map, but they obviously don’t want to do they just band aid everything which just creates more of a problem.
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An easy fix is to add a +2.5 to gen kicking regression every time you hook a unique survivor with a maximum bonus of 10%, This would make gen kicking very viable while incentivizing spreading the pain.
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BBQ awarded additional BPs for each unique survivor hooked. And you know what? That still didn’t stop camping or tunneling. Because it’s not really about bloodpoints.
As long as these playstyles remain so viable, killers will continue to use them.
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In the last major patch, killers got the carrot. The carrot was shorter chases thanks to basekit buffs, increased gen times, nerfs to popular survivor perks and a nerf to the post-hit speed boost survivors get.
The carrot did absolutely nothing to reduce tunneling, and in fact made it worse since now it was easier than ever to secure that first down.
But I'll humor your idea. Let's say they test that out. Do you know what survivors will do? They'll bring a full genrush build with toolboxes and BNP to offset the repair penalty, which will just prompt killers to tunnel even more.
But even if they don't do that, killers are still going to tunnel because the 3v1 is easier than the 4v1. In a 3v1 if you have one survivor slugged or hooked, and you're chasing another survivor, that leaves just one survivor who can get the rescue which also means there's nobody on gens. In a 2v1, any more than 1 gen remaining is a loss.
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Letting them know why this would be a terrible idea lol.
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Incentivise doesn't work. Only restrictions and punishment work
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The only way to incentivize it so most don't tunnel would be to make it so the efficiency loss on gens is so high that it's obviously better to leave most Survivors alive. There would be a bit of griefing as well as selfish survivors would let survivors die on hook to get the repair speed boost.
Even then some Killers, a small amount but not a non-existent amount, would still tunnel and facecamp because their main objective is to make the other side miserable. Similar to bully SWFs they are a small percentage of the population but they do exist and being the target of that behaviour is not fun at all.
While I do wish that an idea that is similar to your is more feasible what I mentioned would be safer. While I think it would be worth trying out it's probably safer and more cost effective to just increase basekit BT than to code an entirely new mechanic in that might not work.
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How does the increased gen speed for a dead survivor solve your stated cause for tunneling? Isn't giving increased gen speed to all survivors just an even bigger punishment for tunneling?
I'm fine with 20 seconds of BT, you can hit them twice if you really want them down or you can just do something else.
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It's not about punishment, it's about making it less worth the effort/less appealing. I don't think you have anything to worry about. I play mostly survivor and I haven't seen BT since before the rework update. If people weren't bringing BT to top up the 5s basekit endurance, then i can't see them doing so with 10s basekit.
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I can only speak for myself, but I tunneled a lot less when I needed stacks for BBQ. Now I do not care and even run Save the Best for Last which I used to consider an overrated perk (as I always went for BBQ, but now I can completely ignore the obsession).
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Why punish instead of incentivize?
Even with incentives, tunnelers going to tunnel. They only care about racking the kill count and not how they get it.
Now jeopardize that kill count...
Sometimes pain is the only thing they understand.
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Because they wont stop doing it anyway
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Yes it would work. You saw less tunneling before Pop, Pain Res, Corrupt, and Ruin/Undying were nerfed. Coincidence? I think not.
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The carrot before that was Pop, Ruin/Undying, Pain Res, Thrill Of The Hunt, etc. Killers actually moved around the map a lot more. But now that they can't do that and still have a good chance of winning, because every one of those things was nerfed, here we are.
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Pain Res got reverted though. Before the nerfs to those favourite perks, killers still tunneled. Killers claimed they had no choice but to tunnel because of gen speeds.
The devs increased gen times because of this claim, and nerfed regression perks because it would be rather unfair to only increase gen times. Then killers moved the goal posts and said it's because their regression perks got nerfed.
Killers are constantly harping on about how survivors need to adapt, but don't want to do so themselves, and are surprised when survivors actually do adapt. (Insert surprised pikachu face)
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They did not increase gen time to lower tunneling. They did it because killrates were too low. Survivors were escaping too much and too easily.
Pain res was good with DMS which got hard nerfed.
Killers have always tunneled because it is their objective : killing survivors. Do you stop repairing a generator once it is at 25% and go find another to spread pressure ? No you don’t, you finish it because it’s the fastest way to complete your objective.
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they never asked themselves "Why killers camp and tunnel?"
We all know it: it's because it's the easy way.
Killing one survivor gives killers an advantage no perk could ever give, with no turning back. It shouldn't be so easy to get it.
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because they are unable/unwilling to do it, simple. People keep playing killer despite of the last changes that will drastically raise up the difficulty to even accomplish a single kill... they also removed the bonus bp from BBQ, erasing the only thing that could lessen the camping and tunneling, this alone should tell you how much they are concerned about giving more variety to the killer's gameplay...
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Some of you killer mains are seriously so damn boring. Like a robot you are thinking of the 4k. You all (survivors too) need to chill and try to have fun rather than that stupid "I NEED TO WIN OR ELSE 111" attitude. I will never understand this tryhard sweat thinking. Do people need it for their ego? For attention? Jeez
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Survivors don't adept when undying first came out did survivors adept to the posb of having to do all 5 totems nope they just bitched till it got nerfed, survivors got base kit BT and instead of adapting they still go for unsafe hooks i.e right after killer hooks a survivor, the killer take 10 steps and bam a unhook or the best one a survivor is in chase with the killer and is injured but runs to the hook to get the unhook.
There is so many survivors complaining about being tunneled or camped and its the killers fault, yet if a unsafe unhook happens like the ones i said above and you get tunneled who's fault it is it's your teammates fault not the killers, the killer has no obligation not to chase you and if they do don't blame the killer blame your teammates.
No matter how many buffs to base kit or perks if your team mates are going to unhook you when it's not safe then non of the perks or base kit changes will matter.
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I personally always advocated for a "Devour Hope"-esque mechanic that gives the killer some kind of buff, so that they don' hinder themselves for going for 12 hooks. Devour Hope in itself is a pretty healthy perk, as it incentivises the killer to leave the hook and roam around far away. Some with old BBQ: everyone had it equipped because of the blood point gains, and the during gameplay they just naturally left the hook in order to chase some far away survivor whoms aura they saw.
I would try something like giving the killers a minor BBQ as baseline, ie after hooking show them the aura of the furthest away survivor and give them a +10% or even +15% haste effect to traverse the map as long as they generally move towards that survivor, are outside of a chase and not within 16m of the highlighted survivor.
As a second basekit I would make The Entity eat 5% of every gens progress once everyone is hooked once and 10% if everyone is hooked twice. Or maybe block every gen for a couple of seconds, ie a small Grim Embrace style lockdown. Grim Embrace btw is also a cool and healthy concept, but bad execution. Its really hard to do, especially if the last survivor tries to be stealthy. Maybe we could also change Grim Embrace, so that it shows the auras of non-hooked survivors and shows the aura of the last survivor intermittendly every 30s or so, OoO-style.
There could also be a "Devour-Hope"-style token system in place called The Entities blessing that awards you a token for every unhooking that takes place with the killer being 24m+ away and that award some minor buffs to the killer, chosen at random from a list.
Ideally we should not only punish camping and tunneling, but also reward the opposite and find ways for killers to WANT to play that way, without making the rewards too oppressive.
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Pain Res got a bit of a bad reputation because it was used by so many killers in so many builds, but frankly SH: PainRes was the single perk that saved playing killer for me during the killers dark days, when DH hold the game in its strangehold and the survivors were just sooo oppressive. With SH: PainRes I could regress gens on the fly, apply some pressure and gain at least a little breathing room. On the plus side it also gave this wonderful explosion and therefore a clear next opjection: go to this gen, its the one with the most progress!
Just like BBQ, the explosion of SH: PainRes made me nearly automatically leave the hook. Now it feels very empty and strange: you hook someone .. and nothing. Did it work? Which gen should I go to next? Is there some survivor around? What should I eat tonight? For now I will stay here and look around.
In the most recent patch they brought back the screaming, but that isn't accompanied by a notification, so for dumb me it brings nothing to the table. I know that the combo of SH: PainRes+DMS was very strong, so I don't really understand why they semi ressurected it. In my book it would have been way healthier if they had done away with the screaming and throwing off gens part of the perk, but kept the explosion. This way the killer would have a clear objective again, but didn't know if they would find a survivor at the other side. The survivors could stay and try to finish the gen or sneak away and hide or go for the rescue. All in all this would be much better then the current state of the perk.
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You are right. Though the same is also true for many survivors (as you stated yourself). How often do survivors say to themselves "you know what? That killer really struggled with us and only got 3 hooks all game. Lets just leave and not go for the rescue, but award that killer with a singel kill :)".
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I think punishing tunneling and camping is still important to deter killers from doing so, but also having incentives for killers to encourage them to not do so in a positive way, should be something they add as well.
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The survivor equivalent of tunneling is called genrushing which is bringing toolboxes, prove thyself and BNP. If survivors only did 25% of a gen, then moved to another gen, they'd all be dead at 5 gens.
Old Undying was anything but balanced, and expecting survivors to cleanse all 5 totems every game is absurd. If you didn't know totem locations, you had to dedicate perks to finding totems and even then you had no way of knowing how many were done.
As for survivors doing unsafe unhooks, those are bad players and they are always going to be present in the game. They also don't represent the bulk of the complaints against tunneling.
Survivor-induced tunneling is fine. There's nobody who'll disagree that killers should punish mistakes. I'm talking about actual tunneling though, where the killer is trying to eliminate a survivor who has recently been unhooked so they can have an easy 3v1.
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I don't know why everyone can't just play for fun these days.
If you get tunneled then either the killer just wants his kill or (and this is what i see more as a killer) the survivor put themself in a position to be tunneled. AKA by using a perk like off the record just to get in the killers way or by the survivor doing the rescueing just stealthing leaving the only option as going for the unhooked person.
If your playing solo que and you get hardcore tunneled then just get hooked and go next. Survivor queues are very quick so its not a major issue. If your a SWF then turn the game into less "we have to all escape" to "lets just bully the killer for hardcore tunneling".
I personally don't tunnel in the traditional sence however if the only option I have is to chase the unhooked survivor (due to can't finding anyone else) then I'm not going to just throw the game and let them go just because survivor handbook sais i should.
Killers are being punished more and more for a playstyle yet nothing ever gets done about bully squads who think its fun to run a 4 man chain stun build where the killer has no chance.
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Would've been better if they just nerfed DMS since the combo was the problem, and not pain res itself which I felt was fine. There were a lot of perk changes that just seem like the devs nerfed them simply because they were used a lot regardless of whether or not those perks were balanced on an individual level.
Much like how they reverted pain res only because of the Merciless Storm combo, which could've been completely avoidable by just failing the skill check.
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"I personally don't tunnel in the traditional sence however if the only option I have is to chase the unhooked survivor (due to can't finding anyone else) then I'm not going to just throw the game and let them go just because survivor handbook sais i should."
Sadly sometimes the survivor unhooked is the victim of a too successful unhooker, ie they didn't lingered to take a protection hit but disappeared so skillfully that I only got one target: the poor, unhooked survivor. If its still the early game with 4 or 5 gens, I might just down them and try to pull someone off a gen and expose themselves. But if the game has already progressed too far, that survivor is going back on the hook.
Show some after-care to the survivors you unhooked, don't just throw them into this harsh world, wounded and without any protection. Don't hate the killer who just follows their nature, hate the "friend" who put you in that situation :V
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"As for survivors doing unsafe unhooks, those are bad players and they are always going to be present in the game. They also don't represent the bulk of the complaints against tunneling."
That's the problem us the players and devs have no way to tell when someone post on the forum about getting tunneled if it was a unsafe hook, Survivor-induced tunneling or the killer just went after them no matter what or they made the story up about how they got tunneled out of the game.
So say out of 100 post only 10 of them were legit tunneled out of the game the other 90 weren't but it puts the devs in a hard part do they buff something to help out survivors or do they draw the line and say sorry your not getting any more changes/help the only change will be soloq and how we can buff that.
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You know, survivors already do this. I don't know if I'm unlucky or what, but there isn't a match, when I play killer, without at least 2 prove thyself and very often bnp. So, it would never really change this in my opinion. But hey, my was only an idea, better than nothing no?
And you said that the killer got shorter chases. Yes, like when I play survivor I get longer chases thanks to dh, because this "dead perk" really save my ass thanks to my good timing, and when I play killer chases that were already slow don't reward me, because the chase is about 20 seconds, and pop one gen. If I don't use deadlock, time to hook the surv and another gen popped. Tunneling was born to face insane genrush team, so maybe if the Devs find a way to stop genrush then less killer will tunnel, also because it's really boring to tunnel every ######### game, before mmr I used to win every game, without tunneling, sometimes also with ######### tier killer without perks, I don't know why dbd arrived at this point.
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And that's my point. I don't want to be punished for tunneling. Devs have to find ways to counter tunneling, but in the same time find ways to incentivize mixed hooks, because now if I do mixed hooks what I get? 0k or 1k, because the insane gen speed. So, your ideas are better than mine, I wanted only to immaginate something that can possibly counter tunneling, camping and genrush at the same time
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Aww thanks <3
Your idea isn't bad, btw, but everytime something similar is suggested, the people here (maybe rightly?) say "oh, so should I get punished for playing good?" or "oh, should the killer be rewarded for playing poorly/losing?". Its a tough beast to tame, thats for sure, with many aspects to consider and both sides to be taken into account.
But at the end of the day, if we find some kind of system that leads to lesser amounts of tunneling and more fun games, everybody wins, right?
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I never tunneled in my life, and also tunneler don't like to tunnel, they do this to win the match, but if it isn't unnecessary they wouldn't tunnel. If you find way to make the game countering tunneling, without punishing it, and at the same time reward the killer for mixed hooks and give killer the possibilities to make mixed hooks without see every ######### gen in the map done, in max one or two months you will see that find someone who tunnel is very hard. And, if Devs find a way to punish tunneling in a healthy way, probably who tunnel don't make more than 1 kill.
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They never put incentivize to don't tunnel, only punishments. And "Don't tunnel because it's unfun" isn't a incentives.
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20 seconds bt, + haste 10% for 20 seconds. And it's only an idea, it might be tested to see if it's good or not, so you know I said the first thing I had in my mind
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Trust me, 20 seconds of buffed haste (now 10%, before 7%) and endurance is insane. Survs, in particular teams, will bring bt a lot more, trust me. 20 seconds of 10% haste and endurance are insane
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Bro, I play a game to win, not only to have fun. It's not for my ego, I simply don't like loose. I want to have fun playing dbd, and at the same time I don't want to play boring ways because it's the only tactics admitted to win in high rank.
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You're 100% right bro, less tunnel and less genrush will lead the game to a really healthy state like some years ago, when genrush wasn't a problem and you rarely got tunneled.
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See i do the same most of the time. If i down someone who has just been unhooked I don't have any intention of hooking them unless its end game and/or 1 gen left.
Usually I will leave them slugged to apply pressure and lure someone else out who i can then down and hook. I think the issue is a lot of survivor still see this as "tunneling" and have a go about it regardless of the reasons.
Ongoing i don't really care what survivors think. If i wanna tunnel someone because its the smart move then im gonna do it. same goes for camping. if proxy camping is the smart choice in the situation then damn straight im gonna do it.
Classic example is i had a game i sent myself to eerie of crows (randomizer build) and i manage to secure a 3 gen situation, hooked someone in the middle of it and was about to both defend the gens and proxy camp the survivor. Thats not me being a toxic camping kiler thats me being smart
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The bulk of complaints are not about survivor-induced tunneling. Before BT was made basekit, it was not uncommon to have survivors farm their teammates by going for an unsafe rescue with no BT. Even back when BT required a terror radius, it wasn't uncommon for survivors to hook farm.
The majority of players who've been playing dbd for a long time know the difference between survivor-induced tunneling and actual tunneling. I personally get tunneled almost every match. The games where I'm not being tunneled are always the most surprising and the most fun.
Yes, I know survivors already bring toolboxes and prove thyself. An unfortunate side effect that everyone said would happen if the devs ever touched gen speeds. Generators are boring, and there's no getting around that.
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Efficient tunnelers gonna hit them right after the unhook anyway thanks to OTR, there is no punishment.
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As long as tunneling and camping remains easier and more efficient than trying to 12 hook everyone, killers will do it. It's boring but it is practical.
Punishing these play styles is the only way to deal with it outside of overhauling the way this game is played, which the devs will not do. Every suggestion people make to try to incentivize killers to not tunnel (outside of more bp gain) just reads as more buffs to killers that will just continue to tunnel anyway. Like that suggestion someone made the other day where everytime a survivor is hooked the killer gets a passive gen regression per hook state. Bro, killers would just tunnel for a free thana stack.
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Just make DS good again seriously, killers are in a good spot now we can have a strong DS.. 3 seconds is not even enough to break line of sight
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I get that's not fun but unbreakable. Unbreaka-boon Soul guard , tenacity , power struggle, flip-flop, boil over
They can all help you recover or wiggle out of the killers grasp
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Sure, make it so killers actually can reliably go for mixed hooks and get 3 stages on everyone.
At the cost of making tunneling against the rules! Shouldnt be a problem since you dont need to do so anymore
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