State of solo survivor, and the killer echo chamber.
It seems to me that everywhere you go where there is any discussion to be had about DBD, it is entirely killer dominant. Whether it be here, the dbd discussion channel of the discord, the steam forums, they are all an echo chamber of mainly killer mains and survivor opinions are nowhere to be seen.
That being said, I would like to talk about what I think is going on with the game, the direction the game is going, and what I think will fix the game.
First I'd like to say, like most games online games that captivate people, whether that be call of duty, world of warcraft, overwatch, dead by daylight, league of legends, csgo, they all have one thing in common: they all take alot of time and grinding to get good at.
My personal experience in gaming is achieving grand master in overwatch AFTER having clocked in around 900 mccree hours, 700 genji hours, 1200 doomfist hours, 400 pharah and soldier hours, 300 zarya hours, and hundreds of hours spread across other heroes. I have played world of warcraft since its inception and have achieved gladiator multiple times with all my time spent on the game adding up to around 20k hours. I have also reached pretty high ranks in csgo in which i have about 2k hours. I say this because I think I have a generally good idea of how to get good at most video games, and that is to look up any resources, whether that be talking to other players better than you, youtube guides, even recieving coaching to guide your learning/ grinding along the way. but the one thing we cannot get past to get good at these video games is the grind. spending countless hours getting repititions and minimizing the mistakes you make.
Why do I say this? because I don't think that is what 90% of the player bases do. If you look at a game like overwatch, it literally took over gaming when it first came out, it was an amazing gaming experience that I personally have never experienced up to that point and I dont think alot of other people have. It had so much hype, so many pros playing from csgo pros, to old tf2 pros and so on. But with the hype comes the casuals, the ones that come for the skins, the lore, the playing 3 hours a week when they have any free time between the wife and kids and 10 hour a day job, kids playing the game, the people who this is their first game and they have no game sense to apply and run around like a chicken with their head cut off. And what do they do when the game is too hard? In my experience, they take to the forums and call for nerfs, they call for heroes that can counter these other heroes that they hate because what they currently have in place is too difficult to use, and they refuse to seek out answers to their problems because it involves watching a stream, and "why would i ever watch someone else play a video game" etc. I think alot of these people dont have that grind in them, and I think it is a problem when we cater to that.
So what eventually happened in overwatch is they started adding hard counters, first it was soft counters, slowly getting harder and harder til they ended up adding brigitte, (mind you, this game is a hero shooter, most of the heroes require lots of skill, mechanics, aim, game sense). What this hero did was heal the entire team in an aoe radius as long as they did damage with their m1, which was a very fast swinging flail in a big frontal cone. she also had a shield that she could use to stun people, and she also had a ranged heal ( armor packs ). and her ultimate was that it gave everyone insane armor in a big aoe radius. this character brought every dive hero (the most fun/ most mechanical skill needed/ highest skill cap/ flashiest heroes that brought many eyes to the game) to a screechign halt, and held the game in a vice grip of a meta for over a year where we only saw one comp which was 3 healers 3 tanks. it was a horrible time for the game in which it bled viewers and players. How blizzard handled this was FORCING the game to be fundamentally changed to ROLE QUE, meaning you can only have 2 of each role on the team, 2 healer, 2 tank, 2 dps, this brought many more problems, and instead of just nerfing/ reworking the hero, the game as a whole took a hit, because god forbid we remove a skill-less hard counter from the game to appease the 5,000 (tops) people that need her instead of just improving.
(edit: i'd like to point out, in a solo survivor situation, with mmr being the wacky thing it is, when i have 2 baby survivors with me and i have to play vs 1 of 10 anti looping killers, it feels very hopeless when youre 25 percent into the first gen and someone goes down instantly).
the point of me saying this is, I feel like this is precisely what's happening to this game. We see otzdarva and other killer mains go on 100 win streaks, no perk, no offering no addon bla bla bla, and yet the entire community discussions on every platform has been killers non stop asking for nerfs, buffs, etc. Why? if otz and others can play killer in any state of the game and succeed, what do you think the difference is? why do you think you shouldn't have to grind to be good at the game?
I look at this new, frankly disgusting version of dead hard, iron will etc, and i cant help but have contempt for bhvr and the people who complain on the forums endlessly. I hope this post will maybe help you reconsider the vocal minority and take a more objective look at the game when you make these changes in the future. I quit overwatch as soon as they fundamentally changed it. and I almost had to quit when i saw how my favorite perks such as DH (which i think is such a cool way to outplay a killer), bt, dh, iron will have been completely gutted.)
also before you get this image of me being some SWF discord using rat player. I want to assure you it's quite the opposite, I love solo queue. (well not really) but in any game, I hate playing in a party, I think the best way to get as good as possible is to play by yourself, develop the instincts on your own, be able to make plays and get info via game knowledge and game sense etc. I have about 1500 hours of solo q exp, I get iri 1 every reset when i am consistently playing.
this brings me to my next point: Solo queue.
You need to do something to solo queue. Often times i see my teammate sitting in a corner with birds on their head while im on hook after getting like 3 flashlight saved and doing 2 gens, then I die and maybe they die, maybe they get an undeserved escape. it makes 0 sense. Imagine having a way for them to be able to hear me and I can help them understand what to do. It's happening in the dbd discord and other discords anyway, why not just add it to the game? I know you won't remove SWF, so why not just add it to the game? seems like the logical next step, your solo players are suffering, and I think its important not to neglect them because IMO they are the ones playing the game correctly/ organically. I completely understand how annoying SWF can be to a killer, but that is 100x worse on a solo survivor. i get 1 good game like every 5 games. so please, do something
I really like this game, i don't want to see it go down the overwatch path.
edit: I wanted to add one more thought, the casuals that come and make demands are like termites for lack of a better term, they come, get the changes made, continue playing their 3 hours a week til the next big skyrim game or whatever the casual hype is about comes out, then they move to that, and the hardcore players are left with a bed post instead of the mansion of a game they had before. Games dont need to be accessible to everyone (meaning all skill ceilings dont need to be lowered, they will complain and still play, you dont have to cave to these demands.)
Comments
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Have you tried hitting the unhooker?
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This game simply isn't balanceable in the same way other games are, so apples to oranges there with regard to Overwatch (or pretty much any other game). If you are looking for balance here, you aren't going to find any. Ever.
And if you don't see surv complaints here, you're blind. Many days you come in here and half the front page is Nurse complaints alone. Or camping. Or tunneling. Or complaining about how much killers are complaining. People create their own echo chambers, having blind spots (seeing opinions that reflect their own as valid and logical, those in opposition as being whining, complaintive and unjustified). The whining is fairly balanced, if you look at it objectively.
And DH was in a disgusting state before; the new one is objectively much better. DH was in a broken state for years, so long that it felt like it was just part of the game. From when SBMM was introduced to when 6.1.0 dropped, killer was in a really rough state; that patch, while very much imperfect, actually moved thing closer to balance than it was before.
But yeah, solo needs help, for sure. All of the other changes have been moving the game in a good direction, the movement has just been too uneven, too staggered, creating wonky periods of adjustment. If they buff solo in some of the ways that have been discussed, the game will be in the best state it ever has been.
And ftr, I also play exclusively solo queue, hit iri 1 every reset, and have nearly as many hours in that role as you do, so not just spitballing here. I also have about 1200 hours in killer, so I feel like my perspective is fairly balanced.
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Wayyyyy too tempted to use the new copypasta.
Well yes killers go on huge winstreaks but so do survivors. Most of those matches are stomps with a few struggles because MMR is wack. Think of XQC(have not heard of Overwatch in so long hes the only player I remember) trying to get a quick match or arcade mode winstreak chances are they are going to be really high because most people in those lobbies are casuals. Winstreaks contribute 0 in terms of game balance because both sides can do it and its mostly down to poor matchmaking and there being very few players that match their skill.
Also DH and Iron Will had it coming. Didnt Ruin and Pop also get massively nerfed in that patch. Oh year and pain resonance. Its almost as if it was a patch designed to weaken the top perks and buff others in order to change the meta. BT is the same exact perk, actually it got buffed with the move speed buff.
And yes solo Q is miserable you know it, I know it and everyone in the the "killer echo chamber" knows it and is talking about it.
To top it all off BHVR looked at their own statistics and thought the kill rate was too low. So yeah it was made off an objective look at the game not the vocal minority.
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If you played overwatch for as long as you did, then you would know that having the same overtuned meta for a half a DECADE is extremely unhealthy for a game. OW literally died from a lack of changes. League, OW and most big multiplayer games have at the very least an ever changing meta. The problem with dbd was that survivors had the same meta for way too long, I quit the game from April until this most recent patch. The reason was because I was essentially going against terrible players getting carried by their perks every single game(bots with perks). I agree with you that solo queue is in need of some base kit information and some mmr adjustments so players can be happy but complaining about DH and IW being nerfed is just dumb. DH was boring to play against and by far the most broken perk this game has ever seen, and after validation it didn't even require good timing just a skilless perk carrying 75% of the survivor player base. DH quite literally countered the entire killer roster besides blight when he has something to bump off of to bait it out, the only time anyone else could bait it out was if there was a very large amount of distance until safety. The changes they made to perks were healthy for the game. Now they just need to buff solo queue and massively change nurse.
Here's a thought what if they just nerfed tracer instead of adding brig like they did? That's kinda what dbd did here.
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It's hard to tell which way the wind is blowing with BHVR. It often seems like they're trying to accommodate the absolute average player on whatever side they're addressing. I think a game like this needs pretty tight matchmaking, but they seem unwilling to do that.
I get where OP is coming from saying most players won't put in the effort to truly analyze their play and improve. I used to think SWF was OP, blah, blah, blah. But I kept grinding and actually focusing on the minutiae, and now I genuinely don't care if players are on comms or not. And I wonder where all these sweat squads are that people are running into.
Solo queue, yeah. It needs a bit of love. A lot of it can be fixed with better matchmaking. I think the devs greatly overestimate how many upper end players would rather have a quick queue rather than wait for a quality game. But it goes back to our first point. They seem to care much, much more about the mid to low level players with 0-500 hrs than the top 10% with multiple thousands of hours.
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Why don't they nerf huntress? isn't she the most played killer?
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The devs don't want to make tight matchmaking, because they don't want long queue times. On top of that, the very few people at the top would see very little diversity that the devs don't like that either.
It sucks, because that means often those players end up in matches they really shouldn't be in, only because the devs wants to make sure everyone has good queue times with good diversity
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That's what you got from my post? huntress is what played like 8% of games and is a solid A tier killer. DH was used by 3/4 of all survivors and was beyond broken.
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Funny you mention Overwatch, because it's competitive people who were the vocal minority who were the Holy Arbiters of Game Balance who ended up ruiningthe game by catering to the competitive/esports side
All the casuals LOVED Mercy, but she was deemed toxic and unhealthy, so she was reworked and became a meta hero and lost part of what made her awesome.
Moral of the story? People on the internet dont always know what they are talking about, myself included. Both on the casual level like a working Parent as well as the hardcore level such as Otz.
Dbd, on average, has always been balanced around your average Urban Self Care Nea. It can be very frustrating as killer to lose to blatantly weaker survivors, but I think it's better to balance for that than for people with 6000+ hours. This game needs a fresh supply of bodies because a lot of people dont Make it past te 500 hour mark.
Dbd is an RNG Clown Fiesta party game not meant to be taken seriously.
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My only caveat with that: are we sure there wouldn't be diversity? I have several killers in the high 1800s and people would be shocked as to who those killers are. We haven't seen any data relative to MMR vs pick rate.
Granted, I have no doubt there would be a ton of Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Twins/Oni at the top. Just not sure how much constitutes a problematic lack of variety.
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What's the new copypasta?
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My impression of the current situation is that the community itself cant be fair towards both factions in this game.
Its weird that we dont hold the survivor character to the same standard as killers, in recent times the nurse. We gotta push survivor up be cause baby survivors are weaker than god survivors. Nerf nurse because of the 1% god nurses, who cares for the babies.
Let's say the devs rework nurse, and as she's "overperforming" unlike billy who was in a good spot, they go all out with
nerfrework and she ends up in B tier. There wont be big discussions to equalize D tier killers with A tiers, the next big thing will be "Nerf Blight, OP".3 -
Not all survivors. 3/4 of high MMR players (which are a small percentage), less than 50% of mid-MMR, and less than 20% of low MMR. This is from the devs stats. I agree it was broken, and not a perk I ever used, but I think it's important to be accurate about how many people used it. Because after the rework, any survivor complaint was drowned out by "you were all just being carried by DH and need to get good", even if the complaint wasn't about DH.
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Lol, this post has got to be sarcastic.....
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You are right, and that is true a lot of complains are hit with "you just want dh back". Though every so often that phrase is warranted. Solo queue is in dire need of information buffs, but when op started talking about IW and DH his post became null especially with his response to what I said. I don't think you buff solo queue by bringing back something op, you give them access to a lot of info a casual swf has.
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Woah, man, are these kind of truth bombs even legal here?
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You talk a lot of trash about casual players for someone who thinks the game is killer sided. Rofl.
No offense, but maybe you should do what you did in Overwatch and grind out some hours first.
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FR, DH was basically the Brigitte of dbd: a hard counter to nearly all killer powers and more often then not an uncounterable "get out of jail" card. This perk alone made playing killer such a miserable experience that I even doubted myself why I was sticking with it.
Like Brigitte, DH held the game in a terrible vicegrip/stranglehold and alone lead to unprecidented bleeding of killer players, because playing that role was just not fun anymore. Playing survivor had become so easy and many players got carried hard by the ever same meta combination, that a 4E was more or less the devault state, unless the MMR system paired a killer with way more inexperienced players.
So OP might be right with some of their perceptions, but its very one sided. The 6.1 patch breathed fresh air into the game, and while it made things apparently a bit too tought for survivors, I applaud BHVR for the brave decision.
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Exactly how I feel. Though I will say its really only tough for solo survivors in the low to mid mmr bracket, and even though I say it like that I do realize that is a large part of the player base. They simply need more information to play the game efficiently. But just as nurse and blight can run some extremely nasty builds/add-ons so can swfs. From my point of view nurse and blight are the killer equivalent of high level swfs if they are good and running good stuff. Though I don't think nurse should exist as is in the current state of the game.
I'm not biased I promise - Blight player
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I´ve been saying this for ages: You can´t fix bad teammates. Most solo queue issues come from teammates that give up early or don´t understand how the game/perks/killers power work.
SBMMR should have taken care of that. But due to the fact that survivors started to give up after the patch, because reasons... the SBMMR for everyone went down. Since finding a match where the teammates play normal until the end is extremely rare.
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I want to reply to this post, but I need to sleep first.
If you see this and you’re commenting on this thread, can you pls reply to this comment so I get a notification reminder? Thx :)
P.S. I never took issue with old DH, but I LOVE new DH—think it is much stronger
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So because content creators who literally play DbD for a living can achieve something, that means everyone should be able to? And the game should be balanced around that level of play? How silly.
Also your example of SoloQ just proves how pointless it is for them to buff it. The SoloQ problem isn’t a design or game problem, it’s a player problem. No amount of band-aids or hand holding in the world will make the Meg, who is urban evading away from you as you struggle on hook because she hears a faint terror radius, turn around and come unhook you.
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You couldve favorited the thread with that star shaped button.
DH is invisible tho. Brigitte you can groan when you see her ( like nurse screams lol).
DH/DS conditioned whole generations of kullers to play a certain way.
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After SoloQing about 200 matches of that other asym which will probably die, I can tell you with 100% certainty that voice comms and extra information won't help SoloQ. Nothing can help the average Solo player.
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Given your hours and your gaming history, I feel it is safe to assume that you know how to loop a killer for quite a while.
So I gotta ask....
How do you not see how easy this game is for survivor?
The matchmaking between DBD and other games is night and day. If you were actually matched with players of equal skill level, you'd think the game was a breeze as survivor. And if you don't believe me, go find a good SWF to play with and find out for yourself--you'll start throwing games just to keep things interesting.
This game has a lot of problems. Often times, it feels like the devs just barely managed to jerry-rig it together. If they "fix" one thing, it will break everything else, because at the moment... 2 wrongs just so happen to make a right.
@Thusly_Boned pretty much hit it on the head by saying "if you are looking for balance here, you aren't going to find any. Ever."
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I keep hearing easy game for survivors...
Being forced to hold M1 for most of a game does not equal "easy" overall. Let's take a look at what a killer needs to KNOW to be decent:
1) How to use their power most effectively
2) How to use their add-ons effectively
3) Finding survivors
4) Map Layouts
5) How to loop or mind game (chase) - rather how survivors may loop or otherwise evade killers
6) Countering common used survivor perks
7) Finding hooks and using them (including evading flashlight, body blocking, etc.)
Good survivors need to KNOW all the above and way more:
1) While killers only need to know how their power works for their preferred killers, the survivor needs to now how the power works for ALL killers plus whatever add-ons could be in play that drastically change the way the match plays out. That's a lot to know right there and there's more with every chapter update.
2) Using your own items and add-ons effectively
3) Finding survivors or rather when to work on gens or otherwise be in the same area to say get a heal vs. stay the hell away from each other otherwise
4) Map Layouts - and where gens are. They aren't highlighted like killers get to enjoy.
5) How to loop and mind game (escape chase) - big one against someone who is faster and with a power and who sees your scratch marks. How to conceal your scratch marks or use them to mislead could be a topic all its own. How to make fast vaults at the right angle.
6) Skill checks - and a lot of them (everything is a damn skill check) - sometimes they can be downright challenging (looking at you Doctor). To my experience I have yet to make a skill check as a killer.
7) Countering common used killer persk - which again can drastically alter the way the game is played over just affecting a chase.
8) Flashlight saves (or knowing you suck and shouldn't touch one ever), when to body block to help another survivor.
9) Finding hex totems and eliminating them (or not - who knows with all the latest perks making past good tactics into bad ones)
10) Reaching a hooked survivor and hopefully how to unhook them safety without ending up on a hook yourself.
11) Healing (when to do it, where to do it, when not to do it)
12) Extra little features like lockers, chests, working Pig boxes, the Hatch, etc.
13) How lead chases in such a way that you don't screw over other survivors trying to get those objectives done being it gens or opening the exit gate.
14) Deciding if you should make that endgame save (and since recent update the correct answer is you shouldn't, cause that's the way they want us to play now).
16) Dealing with the plethora of aura reads that are out there for killers now.
17) When to sacrifice yourself for the good of the team or just cut your loses.
18) Getting that exit gate open and not popping it too early (or too late).
Multiply the above difficulty factor by whatever multiple you feel when doing SoloQ - cause now you have three other unknowns to figure into everything.
I'm sure this isn't a complete list for both sides, but having to hold down M1 while you are waiting for a chase to come along should not assume that everything about survivor is "easy".
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Ah yes, only 7 things killers have to do, but 18 things survivors have to do. This list is in no way biased, and each item in the list is definitely of equal importance.
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i mean even if you disagree with him, you cannot disagree with survivors needed to play against like 20 different kinds of killers. its hard enough mastering how to play vs one killer, let alone 20, when those 20 include like 10 anti looping killers, killers play vs same 4 perks according to them and still cry
we cant control or do anything if we get an iri head huntress and get demolished in 2 mins, they can remove an entire attack needed to down us, but we still do the same gens vs the same slow down perks etc. relax guy
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20? No, there's a handful of groups and within each group the counterplay is all mostly the same. There's not very many killers whose powers are truly unique.
I'm not saying playing survivor is as easy as many others claim, but this list makes it look like killer is incredibly easy. Off the top of my head, it's missing:
- Deciding who to chase.
- Deciding when to drop chase.
- Deciding when to hook vs slug.
- Deciding which hook to use, particularly in the endgame.
- Prioritizing which generators to defend.
- Keeping track of survivors who aren't being chased: what are they likely to be doing, where are they likely to be doing it.
- If the killer brought hexes, hex defense.
- If the survivors boon, deciding whether to find it or leave it.
- How to zone survivors during chase so they run in a favorable direction, and knowing what directions are even favorable (where have the survivors used up all the pallets?).
There's probably more I forgot.
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bro. killer can be played the same exact way every game and get the same results, camp, tunnel, slug, it doesnt matter, killer is the easiest gaming experience ive had in any game ever. even when you lose to an swf, it was 0 stress situation. its ridiculous to say its difficult
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I honestly don't get the comparison to Overwatch. You say the casuals are the ones that were ruining this game with their balance demands? But it's especially at the very high ranks where more killer players struggle, or at least used to struggle before the 6.1.0 update.
And then you argue that solo queue is bad, which is in particular a casual problem. The MMR just too often puts people of noticeably different skill levels together.
I am also not sure where you got the idea that almost only killer mains come to word in any place of the internet where DBD is relevant. On these forums, right now, there is a clear majority that thinks survivors need help now. And I see it everwhere. It sounds like you specifically only payed attention to the people that continue to complain about killers being too weak.
The Dead Hard nerf was so good. Dead Hard was a serious problem, because of the distance it gave survivors. Dead harding to a pallet or window you wouldn't have reached otherwise is not "outplaying the killer", because the killer had 0 counterplay to that. You just pressed a button and were then able to get to the pallet or window in time. In fact, Dead Hard was a problem especially in the high ranks. Not among "casuals".
The way Dead Hard now works, is fantastic. Now you really have to outplay the killer to get value out of it, and it takes quite a bit of skill. But if you do get it to work, the reward is actually noticeably greater than before, which makes it such a great perk in my opinion.
And I am pretty sure most streamers, including Otz, were very happy about it being nerfed. It needed it. The Iron Will nerf was a bit too much I would argue.
The killer buffs were also great and needed. Yes, people like Otz were able to go on 50 kill streaks or whatever, but that's because they are like the top 1% best players. Of course there won't be too many survivor teams that can win against them. And then there is matchmaking, which isn't the best either.
I have also seen streamers like Otz lose matches, even after the big 6.1.0 update.
It is true that solo survivors need some help. But we are getting a great nerf to tunneling in the next patch, which is really good. Now I am also hoping for some nerfs to camping, and things will be looking real good. Of course, I hope that BHVR will continue to improve the game's balance, and one of the things this game also needs are solo queue buffs in form of information. I don't think voice chat is the solution though, at least not the only one. Survivors need some baseline information they can work with, that swf survivors get via comms.
Killers will also need further improvements if survivors get buffed in numerous, impactful ways, of course. Like map improvements, as this game still has some very problematic maps that are pretty survivor sided. Because the truth is, aside from camping and tunneling, the game is pretty balanced at the moment, at least on average. Not really killer or survivor sided. And even camping and tunneling are less of a balance problem, as they aren't necessarily that op, but are a serious design problem, as such cheap and skillless tactics should never be so effective.
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With the current piss-poor matchmaking, sure, because the average survivors you're coming across don't know what to do about those things.
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so playing the game is hard for the majority of the player base? edit: impossible? because of forced counterplay in a game that already had counter play but killer players were not willing to learn?
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I've read this word soup a dozen times and I have no idea what in the world you're trying to communicate with it.
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idk how to have a convo with you then. seems pretty simple to me
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So I don't really have any thoughts on the original post, except it is kind of strange to criticize people who have families and have to work. Do you think a game could survive without people like that?
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Agreed, but BHVR seems to think it can survive without people like that judging from its latest updates. imo
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I agree that this place (and many others) are a killer echo chamber. Survivor mains are likely reluctant to post and be candid; the few that do are often ridiculed and shunned. I can't think of many worthy discussions about survivor concerns from their perspective; the conversation pivots to The Killer somehow.
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what was the counterplay to dead hard
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being better at loops as killer and waiting it out????
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Mate, no level of baiting or loop mastery could outperform a dead hard for distance to a safe window or pallet. That's why they removed it.
The new dh is an absolute Chad perk and when pulled off correctly is far more rewarding with the distance it gains. Difference is, it actually takes skill to pull off unlike old dhfd.
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Lmao this was exactly my thought reading that garbled essay. Imagine both criticising people who have things to do/responsibilities in real life beyond playing a game and then suggesting it’s those same filthy casuals who are flooding the forums complaining.
OP needs a reality check and to touch grass occasionally. People who play three hours a week are not signing up to forums to discuss gameplay mechanics.
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criticizing them for demanding changes to a game they play infrequently, but can spend time at their WFH/ office job on forums etc. talking about how hard the game is and how survivors are "mean" and clickie clickied them
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yeah such a chad perk, you 50/50d a m1 and now your screen is black as a reward, so chad!!!!!!!!! also it doesnt work half of the time that you press it, that really is chad
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OP has got a really terrible take.
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lol that's all i needed to hear from you, your post has basically been invalidated from that one statement.
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yeah, couldnt be a you issue, has to be that dead hard is just unbeatable.
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yea bro it was definitely a me problem bro, should've just waited it out xDDDD
Dead hard for distance does not exist, it was a figment of my imagination all along. Thank you for enlightening me.
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if otz can win vs perks that are impossible to you, its a you problem, sorry man. develop the mindset that you can improve. or just stay with the "i need brig to be able to play this game" mentality
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