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State of solo survivor, and the killer echo chamber.

scawyxd
scawyxd Member Posts: 64
edited August 2022 in General Discussions

It seems to me that everywhere you go where there is any discussion to be had about DBD, it is entirely killer dominant. Whether it be here, the dbd discussion channel of the discord, the steam forums, they are all an echo chamber of mainly killer mains and survivor opinions are nowhere to be seen.

That being said, I would like to talk about what I think is going on with the game, the direction the game is going, and what I think will fix the game.

First I'd like to say, like most games online games that captivate people, whether that be call of duty, world of warcraft, overwatch, dead by daylight, league of legends, csgo, they all have one thing in common: they all take alot of time and grinding to get good at.


My personal experience in gaming is achieving grand master in overwatch AFTER having clocked in around 900 mccree hours, 700 genji hours, 1200 doomfist hours, 400 pharah and soldier hours, 300 zarya hours, and hundreds of hours spread across other heroes. I have played world of warcraft since its inception and have achieved gladiator multiple times with all my time spent on the game adding up to around 20k hours. I have also reached pretty high ranks in csgo in which i have about 2k hours. I say this because I think I have a generally good idea of how to get good at most video games, and that is to look up any resources, whether that be talking to other players better than you, youtube guides, even recieving coaching to guide your learning/ grinding along the way. but the one thing we cannot get past to get good at these video games is the grind. spending countless hours getting repititions and minimizing the mistakes you make.


Why do I say this? because I don't think that is what 90% of the player bases do. If you look at a game like overwatch, it literally took over gaming when it first came out, it was an amazing gaming experience that I personally have never experienced up to that point and I dont think alot of other people have. It had so much hype, so many pros playing from csgo pros, to old tf2 pros and so on. But with the hype comes the casuals, the ones that come for the skins, the lore, the playing 3 hours a week when they have any free time between the wife and kids and 10 hour a day job, kids playing the game, the people who this is their first game and they have no game sense to apply and run around like a chicken with their head cut off. And what do they do when the game is too hard? In my experience, they take to the forums and call for nerfs, they call for heroes that can counter these other heroes that they hate because what they currently have in place is too difficult to use, and they refuse to seek out answers to their problems because it involves watching a stream, and "why would i ever watch someone else play a video game" etc. I think alot of these people dont have that grind in them, and I think it is a problem when we cater to that.


So what eventually happened in overwatch is they started adding hard counters, first it was soft counters, slowly getting harder and harder til they ended up adding brigitte, (mind you, this game is a hero shooter, most of the heroes require lots of skill, mechanics, aim, game sense). What this hero did was heal the entire team in an aoe radius as long as they did damage with their m1, which was a very fast swinging flail in a big frontal cone. she also had a shield that she could use to stun people, and she also had a ranged heal ( armor packs ). and her ultimate was that it gave everyone insane armor in a big aoe radius. this character brought every dive hero (the most fun/ most mechanical skill needed/ highest skill cap/ flashiest heroes that brought many eyes to the game) to a screechign halt, and held the game in a vice grip of a meta for over a year where we only saw one comp which was 3 healers 3 tanks. it was a horrible time for the game in which it bled viewers and players. How blizzard handled this was FORCING the game to be fundamentally changed to ROLE QUE, meaning you can only have 2 of each role on the team, 2 healer, 2 tank, 2 dps, this brought many more problems, and instead of just nerfing/ reworking the hero, the game as a whole took a hit, because god forbid we remove a skill-less hard counter from the game to appease the 5,000 (tops) people that need her instead of just improving.

(edit: i'd like to point out, in a solo survivor situation, with mmr being the wacky thing it is, when i have 2 baby survivors with me and i have to play vs 1 of 10 anti looping killers, it feels very hopeless when youre 25 percent into the first gen and someone goes down instantly).


the point of me saying this is, I feel like this is precisely what's happening to this game. We see otzdarva and other killer mains go on 100 win streaks, no perk, no offering no addon bla bla bla, and yet the entire community discussions on every platform has been killers non stop asking for nerfs, buffs, etc. Why? if otz and others can play killer in any state of the game and succeed, what do you think the difference is? why do you think you shouldn't have to grind to be good at the game?


I look at this new, frankly disgusting version of dead hard, iron will etc, and i cant help but have contempt for bhvr and the people who complain on the forums endlessly. I hope this post will maybe help you reconsider the vocal minority and take a more objective look at the game when you make these changes in the future. I quit overwatch as soon as they fundamentally changed it. and I almost had to quit when i saw how my favorite perks such as DH (which i think is such a cool way to outplay a killer), bt, dh, iron will have been completely gutted.)


also before you get this image of me being some SWF discord using rat player. I want to assure you it's quite the opposite, I love solo queue. (well not really) but in any game, I hate playing in a party, I think the best way to get as good as possible is to play by yourself, develop the instincts on your own, be able to make plays and get info via game knowledge and game sense etc. I have about 1500 hours of solo q exp, I get iri 1 every reset when i am consistently playing.


this brings me to my next point: Solo queue.


You need to do something to solo queue. Often times i see my teammate sitting in a corner with birds on their head while im on hook after getting like 3 flashlight saved and doing 2 gens, then I die and maybe they die, maybe they get an undeserved escape. it makes 0 sense. Imagine having a way for them to be able to hear me and I can help them understand what to do. It's happening in the dbd discord and other discords anyway, why not just add it to the game? I know you won't remove SWF, so why not just add it to the game? seems like the logical next step, your solo players are suffering, and I think its important not to neglect them because IMO they are the ones playing the game correctly/ organically. I completely understand how annoying SWF can be to a killer, but that is 100x worse on a solo survivor. i get 1 good game like every 5 games. so please, do something


I really like this game, i don't want to see it go down the overwatch path.


edit: I wanted to add one more thought, the casuals that come and make demands are like termites for lack of a better term, they come, get the changes made, continue playing their 3 hours a week til the next big skyrim game or whatever the casual hype is about comes out, then they move to that, and the hardcore players are left with a bed post instead of the mansion of a game they had before. Games dont need to be accessible to everyone (meaning all skill ceilings dont need to be lowered, they will complain and still play, you dont have to cave to these demands.)

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Comments

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64

    Why don't they nerf huntress? isn't she the most played killer?

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,517

    The devs don't want to make tight matchmaking, because they don't want long queue times. On top of that, the very few people at the top would see very little diversity that the devs don't like that either.

    It sucks, because that means often those players end up in matches they really shouldn't be in, only because the devs wants to make sure everyone has good queue times with good diversity

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,369

    My only caveat with that: are we sure there wouldn't be diversity? I have several killers in the high 1800s and people would be shocked as to who those killers are. We haven't seen any data relative to MMR vs pick rate.

    Granted, I have no doubt there would be a ton of Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Twins/Oni at the top. Just not sure how much constitutes a problematic lack of variety.

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,249

    My impression of the current situation is that the community itself cant be fair towards both factions in this game.

    Its weird that we dont hold the survivor character to the same standard as killers, in recent times the nurse. We gotta push survivor up be cause baby survivors are weaker than god survivors. Nerf nurse because of the 1% god nurses, who cares for the babies.

    Let's say the devs rework nurse, and as she's "overperforming" unlike billy who was in a good spot, they go all out with nerf rework and she ends up in B tier. There wont be big discussions to equalize D tier killers with A tiers, the next big thing will be "Nerf Blight, OP".

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,439

    You are right, and that is true a lot of complains are hit with "you just want dh back". Though every so often that phrase is warranted. Solo queue is in dire need of information buffs, but when op started talking about IW and DH his post became null especially with his response to what I said. I don't think you buff solo queue by bringing back something op, you give them access to a lot of info a casual swf has.

  • Junylar
    Junylar Member Posts: 2,005

    Woah, man, are these kind of truth bombs even legal here?

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,459

    FR, DH was basically the Brigitte of dbd: a hard counter to nearly all killer powers and more often then not an uncounterable "get out of jail" card. This perk alone made playing killer such a miserable experience that I even doubted myself why I was sticking with it.

    Like Brigitte, DH held the game in a terrible vicegrip/stranglehold and alone lead to unprecidented bleeding of killer players, because playing that role was just not fun anymore. Playing survivor had become so easy and many players got carried hard by the ever same meta combination, that a 4E was more or less the devault state, unless the MMR system paired a killer with way more inexperienced players.

    So OP might be right with some of their perceptions, but its very one sided. The 6.1 patch breathed fresh air into the game, and while it made things apparently a bit too tought for survivors, I applaud BHVR for the brave decision.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,439

    Exactly how I feel. Though I will say its really only tough for solo survivors in the low to mid mmr bracket, and even though I say it like that I do realize that is a large part of the player base. They simply need more information to play the game efficiently. But just as nurse and blight can run some extremely nasty builds/add-ons so can swfs. From my point of view nurse and blight are the killer equivalent of high level swfs if they are good and running good stuff. Though I don't think nurse should exist as is in the current state of the game.

    I'm not biased I promise - Blight player

  • KayTwoAyy
    KayTwoAyy Member Posts: 1,699

    I want to reply to this post, but I need to sleep first.

    If you see this and you’re commenting on this thread, can you pls reply to this comment so I get a notification reminder? Thx :)


    P.S. I never took issue with old DH, but I LOVE new DH—think it is much stronger

  • AndyKuky
    AndyKuky Member Posts: 84
    edited August 2022

    So because content creators who literally play DbD for a living can achieve something, that means everyone should be able to? And the game should be balanced around that level of play? How silly.

    Also your example of SoloQ just proves how pointless it is for them to buff it. The SoloQ problem isn’t a design or game problem, it’s a player problem. No amount of band-aids or hand holding in the world will make the Meg, who is urban evading away from you as you struggle on hook because she hears a faint terror radius, turn around and come unhook you.

  • Raptorrotas
    Raptorrotas Member Posts: 3,249

    You couldve favorited the thread with that star shaped button.

    DH is invisible tho. Brigitte you can groan when you see her ( like nurse screams lol).

    DH/DS conditioned whole generations of kullers to play a certain way.

  • Sludge
    Sludge Member Posts: 768
    edited August 2022

    After SoloQing about 200 matches of that other asym which will probably die, I can tell you with 100% certainty that voice comms and extra information won't help SoloQ. Nothing can help the average Solo player.

  • KayTwoAyy
    KayTwoAyy Member Posts: 1,699

    Given your hours and your gaming history, I feel it is safe to assume that you know how to loop a killer for quite a while.

    So I gotta ask....

    How do you not see how easy this game is for survivor?


    The matchmaking between DBD and other games is night and day. If you were actually matched with players of equal skill level, you'd think the game was a breeze as survivor. And if you don't believe me, go find a good SWF to play with and find out for yourself--you'll start throwing games just to keep things interesting.


    This game has a lot of problems. Often times, it feels like the devs just barely managed to jerry-rig it together. If they "fix" one thing, it will break everything else, because at the moment... 2 wrongs just so happen to make a right.


    @Thusly_Boned pretty much hit it on the head by saying "if you are looking for balance here, you aren't going to find any. Ever."

  • Lynxx
    Lynxx Member Posts: 510

    I keep hearing easy game for survivors...

    Being forced to hold M1 for most of a game does not equal "easy" overall. Let's take a look at what a killer needs to KNOW to be decent:

    1) How to use their power most effectively

    2) How to use their add-ons effectively

    3) Finding survivors

    4) Map Layouts

    5) How to loop or mind game (chase) - rather how survivors may loop or otherwise evade killers

    6) Countering common used survivor perks

    7) Finding hooks and using them (including evading flashlight, body blocking, etc.)

    Good survivors need to KNOW all the above and way more:

    1) While killers only need to know how their power works for their preferred killers, the survivor needs to now how the power works for ALL killers plus whatever add-ons could be in play that drastically change the way the match plays out. That's a lot to know right there and there's more with every chapter update.

    2) Using your own items and add-ons effectively

    3) Finding survivors or rather when to work on gens or otherwise be in the same area to say get a heal vs. stay the hell away from each other otherwise

    4) Map Layouts - and where gens are. They aren't highlighted like killers get to enjoy.

    5) How to loop and mind game (escape chase) - big one against someone who is faster and with a power and who sees your scratch marks. How to conceal your scratch marks or use them to mislead could be a topic all its own. How to make fast vaults at the right angle.

    6) Skill checks - and a lot of them (everything is a damn skill check) - sometimes they can be downright challenging (looking at you Doctor). To my experience I have yet to make a skill check as a killer.

    7) Countering common used killer persk - which again can drastically alter the way the game is played over just affecting a chase.

    8) Flashlight saves (or knowing you suck and shouldn't touch one ever), when to body block to help another survivor.

    9) Finding hex totems and eliminating them (or not - who knows with all the latest perks making past good tactics into bad ones)

    10) Reaching a hooked survivor and hopefully how to unhook them safety without ending up on a hook yourself.

    11) Healing (when to do it, where to do it, when not to do it)

    12) Extra little features like lockers, chests, working Pig boxes, the Hatch, etc.

    13) How lead chases in such a way that you don't screw over other survivors trying to get those objectives done being it gens or opening the exit gate.

    14) Deciding if you should make that endgame save (and since recent update the correct answer is you shouldn't, cause that's the way they want us to play now).

    16) Dealing with the plethora of aura reads that are out there for killers now.

    17) When to sacrifice yourself for the good of the team or just cut your loses.

    18) Getting that exit gate open and not popping it too early (or too late).

    Multiply the above difficulty factor by whatever multiple you feel when doing SoloQ - cause now you have three other unknowns to figure into everything.

    I'm sure this isn't a complete list for both sides, but having to hold down M1 while you are waiting for a chase to come along should not assume that everything about survivor is "easy".

  • TheWheelOfCheese
    TheWheelOfCheese Member Posts: 695

    Ah yes, only 7 things killers have to do, but 18 things survivors have to do. This list is in no way biased, and each item in the list is definitely of equal importance.

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64
    edited August 2022

    i mean even if you disagree with him, you cannot disagree with survivors needed to play against like 20 different kinds of killers. its hard enough mastering how to play vs one killer, let alone 20, when those 20 include like 10 anti looping killers, killers play vs same 4 perks according to them and still cry

    we cant control or do anything if we get an iri head huntress and get demolished in 2 mins, they can remove an entire attack needed to down us, but we still do the same gens vs the same slow down perks etc. relax guy

  • TheWheelOfCheese
    TheWheelOfCheese Member Posts: 695

    With the current piss-poor matchmaking, sure, because the average survivors you're coming across don't know what to do about those things.

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64
    edited August 2022

    so playing the game is hard for the majority of the player base? edit: impossible? because of forced counterplay in a game that already had counter play but killer players were not willing to learn?

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64

    idk how to have a convo with you then. seems pretty simple to me

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,821

    So I don't really have any thoughts on the original post, except it is kind of strange to criticize people who have families and have to work. Do you think a game could survive without people like that?

  • Lynxx
    Lynxx Member Posts: 510

    Agreed, but BHVR seems to think it can survive without people like that judging from its latest updates. imo

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64

    being better at loops as killer and waiting it out????

  • HauntedKnight
    HauntedKnight Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2022

    Lmao this was exactly my thought reading that garbled essay. Imagine both criticising people who have things to do/responsibilities in real life beyond playing a game and then suggesting it’s those same filthy casuals who are flooding the forums complaining.

    OP needs a reality check and to touch grass occasionally. People who play three hours a week are not signing up to forums to discuss gameplay mechanics.

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64

    criticizing them for demanding changes to a game they play infrequently, but can spend time at their WFH/ office job on forums etc. talking about how hard the game is and how survivors are "mean" and clickie clickied them

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64
    edited August 2022

    yeah such a chad perk, you 50/50d a m1 and now your screen is black as a reward, so chad!!!!!!!!! also it doesnt work half of the time that you press it, that really is chad

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,495

    OP has got a really terrible take.

  • neb
    neb Member Posts: 790

    lol that's all i needed to hear from you, your post has basically been invalidated from that one statement.

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64

    yeah, couldnt be a you issue, has to be that dead hard is just unbeatable.

  • neb
    neb Member Posts: 790
    edited August 2022

    yea bro it was definitely a me problem bro, should've just waited it out xDDDD


    Dead hard for distance does not exist, it was a figment of my imagination all along. Thank you for enlightening me.

  • scawyxd
    scawyxd Member Posts: 64
    edited August 2022

    if otz can win vs perks that are impossible to you, its a you problem, sorry man. develop the mindset that you can improve. or just stay with the "i need brig to be able to play this game" mentality