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SWF should be shown on leaderboard, with a points bonus.
Connected lines or symbols of some sort should indicate who is linked in a SWF on the end game leaderboard (think Overwatch, you can see the dash lines between players to show who is queuing together).
I don't know what points bonus would be appropriate, but just for example:
2 SWF = 5% BP bonus (for killer)
3 SWF = 10% BP bonus
4 SWF = 15% BP bonus
I'm a survivor main, been playing since 2017. I believe SWF is necessary in a multiplayer game like this, it should never be removed. However, I do agree that it is much more difficult for the killer to face a SWF, especially if they are using comms. I think this would improve game health quite a bit; it's usually a disadvantage for the killer to face a SWF (compared to solo queue players), so the points bonus would ease that feeling of unfairness, I think.
Comments
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Yes.. and its far more difficult for survivors to beat a nurse then a wraith. Should survivors be compensated for having to VS the for being "harder". Also harder is is not guaranteed. 4 survivors parlaying for fun is more at a disadvantage then the majority of killers playing to win with proper perks and addons.
SWF is not unfair, it can be harder, especially with proper coordination. However killers beat SWF all the time, they are a massive part of the game and with how unbearable Solo Q is, a massive portion of the player base is SWF. The issue is people will go up against 10 or so 2 man 3 man (ECT) and demolish them with no idea they are SWF, because killers tend to just assume solo players are bad. However they will go against one really sweaty 4 man SWF and assume that all SWF is like that.
SWF is fine and you don't deserve to be compensated just because someone players better. s people will pick
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@Icaurs While I think I understand what you are saying, I'm not sure I agree.
"Its far more difficult for survivors to beat a nurse then a wraith." - That is purely through programming choices by the devs. Killer designs have been, and always will be, tweaked and adjusted over time as the game progresses (as it should be). Issues with killer power and effectiveness tiers comes down to choices in design from the devs. There are no 'more / less' powerful survivor characters.
There is nothing about SWF that has been, or can be adjusted in that way. It's a static part of the game's design that has nothing to do with programmed mechanics or abilities - it does however cause great variation in playstyle and outcome.
"SWF is not unfair, it can be harder..." - If it 'can be' harder then it 'can be' unfair. It's clear, even from your own response, that there is a difference between solo survivor play and teamed survivor play.
"SWF is fine" - agreed, it's my favorite part of the game.
"You don't deserve to be compensated just because someone players better" - disagree, that's not what I was explaining. It has nothing to do with someone playing 'better' or not, that's what the SBMM is for (which is also questionable, but there are other threads for that). Of course killers beat SWFs all the time, my point wasn't that it was impossible. My point was that over the years it's been an ongoing and unaddressed complaint from both new and veteran players, that a significant advantage dynamic is often involved. Survivors lose nothing through a point bonus given to the killer. It wouldn't affect gameplay. It would, however, improve morale in a multiplayer-only space; something this game has always been severely lacking.
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Playing against a swf should give you bonus perks - not bonus xp.
Talking gives SWF extra information which translates to effectively extra perks.
Make the game fair or let the killer choose not to play against swf.
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Perks? Such as? (Or do you just mean an extra slot?) Can't say I agree with either notion.
Letting the killer choose not to play against SWF is potentially fine, considering it only affects that killer, then. But then your queue times are going to be 30+ minutes considering the amount of 2, 3, and 4 person teams. It would need to find you 4 solo survivors within your MMR, it would take a long time.
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Choosing to let a killer not play vs SWF is not reasonable - nor is keeping the game the way it is now.
When playing vs a swf let any solo players pick a cache of 4 perks to use that are selected before the match starts. They only activate in case SWF are in the game and they are not in the SWF.
Let survivors only bring info perks because that is what SWF gives you as a result of being able to talk.
Give the killer any 4 perks they want that they have access to. This will make SWF a disadvantage because you are buffing killer too.
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That seems a bit convoluted and I'm not sure I entirely understand what you mean.
I agree that choosing to lock out SWFs from killer queue isn't reasonable (or rather, I would say just isn't feasible). "Nor is keeping the game the way it is now." I disagree with that, though. The game is in its 6th year, SWF has always been a part of it, always will be.
As for your suggestion, do you mean the solo getting paired with the SWF gets 4 extra perks in such a scenario (8 total)?
"Give the killer any 4 perks... you are buffing killer too" - do you mean they get 4 extra perks as well? 8 perk killers? If that's what you mean, then that's just silly and wouldn't work... nor would it ever be implemented.
"This will make SWF a disadvantage" - it sure would, which is why the devs would never do such a thing (and why my idea didn't include any disadvantages). It's a multiplayer game... Who would want to launch a game that punishes you for playing with friends or bringing people into the community?
The only true 'issue' with SWF is the whining about it, which is what my (simple) suggestion was meant to address. No skin off the survivors backs, and makes the killer feel rewarded instead of punished for the extra challenge. Messing around with loadouts and base game mechanics will just make balancing even more difficult, and will continue the cycle of people whining and complaining. This game is 4v1, it's never going to be perfect - but getting extra points for something that feels frustrating would improve the mood / experience.
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-"As for your suggestion, do you mean the solo getting paired with the SWF gets 4 extra perks in such a scenario (8 total)?"
Yes but they only get to choose information perks for extra perks. Examples include : kindred ,bond, rookie spirit, alert, empathy, etc.
-"Who would want to launch a game that punishes you for playing with friends or bringing people into the community?"
It's not punishment; it's called balance. SWF gives a 15% extra chance to escape. That's completely insane when you compare it to solo queue. It is exceedingly clear that SWF gives an advantage and if given the choice most killers would only play vs solo players.
-"The only true 'issue' with SWF is the whining about it"
That's a lovely attitude. People have been asking for six years to make SWF balanced. What was slowly happening was that all the killers were quitting. Before the mmr changes (which was right before the 40 patch shake up) there were times where playing survivor had a 5 minute queue. Killer queues were instant because no one wanted to play that role. Adding new insanely broken perks like Hyperfocus is going to throw the game askew again. Right now there are a lot of people who are in low MMR with killer and think : oh look how easy this is - this is great.
DBD is night and day difference when you play vs randoms who can't loop well vs coordinated teams who play optimally. The difference is so great that we might as well have different rule sets depending if you are new to the game or you are "established". One of the lead game designers who is no longer part of the project, Mclean, was very much against an idea of "changing" rule sets. The reality is that DBD is not a fair game because overall the game balance considers low/medium level play and ignores high level play. That would be fine If I could choose to not play against the high level survivors (as long as I don't play Blight or Nurse).
One of my favorite things to do as killer is to find some live streamer and listen to their SWF coms (without looking). They tell me who has unbreakable, MoM, Deliverance, DS, Prove Thyself, etc. In my opinion it's pretty fair when you can listen to the voice coms that people are using that supposedly "dont give a big advantage". Streamers get extremely mad to learn you were listening to their voice coms but to be honest it's just a move to level the playing field. If you are good at DBD you can carry in solo queue.
What I find really annoying is that most survivor mains become deeply offended when you ask to impose any kind of balance change on SWF. As an example imagine this very simple restriction : No repeated characters, perks or items. To use SWF logic against you : since most people play duo's it won't matter in the slightest. There are plenty of perks to split between two people. And if anyone is playing SWF in a three or four man group they will become limited but that will help keep the game fair to the killer. With this suggestion they could add a visual icon of all the perks over a friendly survivor's head that is part of your SWF. Any non repeated perks would be in blue (think vigil buff) and any repeated perks would be colored red (think thanatapohbia debuff).
SWF enthusiasts love to say the only thing that matters is playing with your friends - until you try and balance the SWF experience so that it no longer gives them a huge advantage. And then they cry about punishment.
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@DBDVulture It's absolutely punishment to tell people they only get 50% of the loadout or tools other people get to use, simply because they are playing with friends. It's a multiplayer game. Nothing like that has been or ever will be applied to a multiplayer game.
And sure, I will concede my stance to 'my main issue with SWF is people whining about it' instead. So I won't speak for everyone. People have been waiting 6 years for many things to happen, but it's BHVR and we know how they are. You either play DbD for what it is, take the surveys, and put your money where your mouth is - or you stop playing. (But I will also note, when I say my main issue is the whining, I'm being literal. I don't consider valid criticisms or workable suggestions to be 'whining.')
DbD always has been unbalanced. Even if it were as close to balanced as possible - people would still complain about balance issues because it's a 4 v 1 game. It's uneven by nature (and as a survivor main, I've personally always been of the opinion that killer should feel stronger in a game like this). I do agree that looking at new or low-skill gameplay compared to veteran play is night-and-day, almost like a different game. It's something I explain to anyone new that is considering learning how to play. I think the emblem system gave us our best chance (to date) to make matchmaking more fair, but again, we are just at BHVR's whim right...
I see nothing wrong with listening in on a streamer, SWF or not. It's up to them if they want that to be an option or keep it hidden.
I'll also retract my statement about not being able to adjust SWF. I've actually thought about the non-repeating characters and non-repeating perks bit before, and I think that would be perfectly fair. It would be nice if survivors could see each other's perks in lobby, regardless of this change, as well.
"SWF enthusiasts love to say the only thing that matters is playing with your friends." Acting like playing with friends is not a core aspect of a multiplayer game is short sighted. It might not be the only thing that matters, but it can't just be thrown to the wayside.
It wasn't my intention for this thread to be a discussion or debate about SWF. My suggestion was concise, simple, and easy to implement with very little chance of bugs / light amount of coding required. If nothing else changed, if BHVR addressed no other issues surrounding this - would my idea really not be appreciated? Like you said, people have been waiting 6 years for changes, and they've shown us just how much they care about the topic right? My idea would be a small improvement, in my opinion, and would take little to no effort to implement on BHVR's part. I can't help but feel like your responses are 'I don't want this change unless they fix everything else.'
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4 SWF = 200% BP bonus (and i would still consistently skip)
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Swfs should be shown in the post game screen and then the killer should get a nice bp bonus. At the very least 25% bonus bp per swf member
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Yes, thinking about it a bit more, seeing the SWF connections pre-match would create a lot of queue dodging. And yah I just threw some numbers out there just to show for example, assuming BHVR would decide the appropriate numbers if something like this were implemented.
I just think it's a small, easy-to-code change, that would improve quality of life (which DbD is always in need of, right).
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-"I'll also retract my statement about not being able to adjust SWF. I've actually thought about the non-repeating characters and non-repeating perks bit before, and I think that would be perfectly fair. It would be nice if survivors could see each other's perks in lobby, regardless of this change, as well."
This is really the minimum that should happen and could have happened years ago. It would greatly reduce the potential for bully squads while not really hurting 2 man SWF groups. The ability to see who is using what perk without asking would be a nice addition.
-"I can't help but feel like your responses are 'I don't want this change unless they fix everything else."
SWF is literally the most broken thing in the game aside from cheating (but let's ignore that). As soon as you get into a group that knows how to relay valuable information you are better at the game. You don't need to bring most of the information perks anymore and you can focus on "action" or "buff" perks.
The classic example is : BT, DH, DS, Unbreakable. That build gives you literally zero information and if you try it without being in a SWF on coms quite often you don't do very well when you use it unless your play time is 3000 hours or higher. You have no need for most of the aura information perks when your friends can tell you basement is here, there killer is putting a trap there, blah blah blah.
One of the biggest problems with DBD is that it isn't fair on purpose. If the game had better/more fair rules overall it would likely keep more of the people interested in the game. It's a pity that nobody on my friends list who owned the game in 2016 still plays DBD. The only people I know that are still playing DBD are people I have added within the last year.
The game has trouble growing because people eventually figure out that the game is rigged in favor of the survivors. It's one thing to have a game that you know isn't fair and continually try to adjust it. It's another thing to have a game and keep it broken because that is what makes the most money. That's what DBD does.
Survivors buy more cosmetics as a function of being 4/5 of the players in a game. But generally speaking they are placated at the expense of the killer audience (looking at 6 years of buffs/nerfs and the timing of those changes).
DBD isn't a game where 5 people go into a lobby as a group and one of them is selected as killer. You make a Survivor team and then you play against a killer. DBD has had problems keeping killers interested in the game many times. There was a killer strike in 2017 and somewhere around 2017-2018 I had friends who waited 10-15 minutes to get into a game that lasted 5 minutes. Within the last year queue times were close to 10 minutes again before they changed MMR.
All this is great except SWF has never really had any kind of balance. The reality is you're never going to fix everything else as long as SWF is allowed to be as it is now. SWF needs to be a "side grade" not an upgrade.
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Extra points for playing against a SWF will never work. Want to know why?
If you knew you could play against 4 solo queue players or the same 4 players with voice coms you would always choose the 4 solo queue players. As killer the things that earn you points largely speaking are goals that the survivors want to prevent and vice versa. When you play against a stronger team the game is over faster so you will generally speaking get fewer points.
SWF games make the game harder for you because they play more efficiently. You will get fewer points playing against a SWF than you will vs solo players because you won't get a gen kicked before the SWF completes it but you just might vs solo queue players. When playing against uncoordinated players you don't need to camp or tunnel and you can go for 12 hooks if you feel like it. That's not true for organized teams.
I would choose to play against a 4 man SWF team if I got 4 extra perks of my choice. Anything less than that and I would rather play against solo queue players. Very recently killer queues were instant and survivor queues took 5 minutes. If I felt like it I could refresh my lobby over and over until I found 4 people who were all solo queue players. Those games were always easier than SWF lobbies.
The problem with SWF is that it is an automatic advantage that makes the game more difficult for killer.
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It never gonna happen for two reasons:
- Weak killer players will drop queue at the first sign of SWF. Minding that playing SoloQ is a complete hell, it is left only for hardcore survivors and streamers, all others go to SWF. It will result in killer queue times 5 times longer than now.
- Main misconception is that all SWFs are Team Oracle after Team Eternity. Most cases it's just casual players that having fun. And people like to play with friends not to gain huge advantage, but to PLAY WITH FRIENDS.
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@DBDVulture I mean sure keep going off, but all of your comments have very little to do with my OP. I'm not sure why you're arguing with me so vehemently about SWF - why does my opinion matter to you? If you feel so strongly - then go make your own thread about it (not that they don't already exist. Month after month... year after year...) If my idea was implemented -or- if my idea was outright ignored, you do realize that either option still has zero bearing on whether or not SWF issues are addressed right? I don't need any convincing about the pros or cons dude - the devs do.
To you and @EvilSerje (about queue dodging) that's why I noted that the SWF connections would be shown in the end game leaderboard, it would just be a points bonus for after the match is done. Killers dodge lobbies now as it is currently, if they suspect a 4 man SWF anyway.
I didn't post this to argue SWF logistics, clearly I understand and agree that there is an imbalance. My idea was a very minor, easy to implement improvement. I thought of it because I saw how nice the points bonus from the new main menu queue incentive can be, and since they've already added that, it wouldn't be much more difficult for BHVR to add this type of idea as well.
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Letting people avoid SWF is a terrible idea. This is like letting survivors dodge lobby by seeing what killer it is. It’s a part of the game. Face it, or don’t queue up.
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Which is why the post says "on the end game leaderboard..."
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MB, meant to respond to vulture.
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@SuzuKR no worries, just getting a bit frustrated that no one is responding about my very simple, clear and concise little idea lol. I'm not here to argue about SWF.
Anyone know who I can tag to request a thread be closed? Can't seem to find that info on my own at first glance, thanks :)
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As for your idea, I’m not personally sure if I’m a fan. Gives more ways for people to make excuses about why they lost, and I don’t think SWF is bad enough a killer needs bonus BP for it. But all around more BP income for everyone would be nice.
To close your own thread, changing title + reporting own post will work for reference!
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@SuzuKR thank u for the reply
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My comments are on point as they are an alternative to "just give the killer more points".
The simplest solution is to implement the rule : no repeats of characters, perks or items in a SWF. The added benefit is the red/blue icon that shows when perks are repeated.
SWF loses the ability to bully killers and it becomes more balanced. If you want the freedom to take all the best perks then you play solo queue and maybe you get 3 people who are all using some crazy build that is OP when everyone is using the same 3 perks.
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@DBDVulture You can call them an 'alternative' but aside from the non-repeating ideas, they're pretty poorly thought out (eg. an 8 perk killer...) They're an alternative to my ideas in the same way that replacing you car engine is an alternative to cleaning the windshield. Did I give you the impression somehow that my suggestion was meant to rectify all issues with SWF?
The entire purpose of my suggestion was rooted in my observation of how nice the bloodpoints-bonus on the main menu was. Since they recently implemented that, I deduced that it would not take much in the way of time, coding, or possible bugs - for them to then introduce a points bonus for killers facing SWFs.
Your ideas are an overhaul. These requests and complaints have also been parroted for years and years. Like I said before - clearly BHVR does not care to restructure SWF at this time (or in 2021, or in 2020, or in 2019, or in 2018...)
Your points aren't an 'alternative' to my idea, since the points-bonus could occur both with and without your suggested changes. They're not mutually exclusive.
If you feel so passionately, sounds like you should make your own thread. Seems to me though, that we're both aware BHVR doesn't care to make big changes to SWF. I think non-repeating characters and non-repeating SWF perks is a fine idea. But that's not what my OP was about.
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"Seems to me though, that we're both aware BHVR doesn't care to make big changes to SWF."
And that's why they won't even give killer extra points for playing against SWF. Your idea isn't new as it was proposed many times in 2016 and several years later.
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It's not a big change, though (doesn't interfere with gameplay). People also asked for queue-incentive bonuses years ago - and would ya' look at that, they've gone and done it.
Hence the (timely) intent of my OP.
♪ One of these things is not like the other ♫
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I don't know about swf incentives stuff, but it would be nice to understand who was together you can already sort of guess who a swf is just by viewing friends if they're steam before a match.
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Yah I agree with people that it would just increase queue-dodging to be able to see SWF before a match, it would only work if it was shown afterward. Although yes, killers absolutely do dodge groups even as it is now; either by guessing based on how they joined the lobby, or through checking Steam.
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