It's good to see kill rates are so high
This should be a clear message to BHVR that it's survivors time to get some improvement and help now. And kind of hard to argue against that at this point.
Of course there is always the argument of survivors suiciding on hooks, and bad matchmaking, screwing over these stats a bit. That's what you'd want to tell yourself if you are a killer main that doesn't want to accept that survivors need a bit of help now. However, hook suicides just don't happen often enough in cases where survivors would have won otherwise to have a particularly big impact on the stats, in my eyes. And on the other side, we also have killers that sometimes just give up or simply let survivors escape.
Also, if matchmaking is only mainly problematic for one side, than that might be a sign that matchmaking alone is not causing these problems.
I do agree, to an extent, with people that question why a 53% kill rate wasn't enough. In general, you'd want kill rates to be somewhere in that area. However, beyond questioning the intentions, the buffs killers got were all healthy, and were a good first step to get DBD into a better state. Gens needed some time increase so that killers wouldn't be quite as dependent on slowdown perks, and the other buffs in particular also give the killer a bit more incentivisation to go for chases. The nerf to DH was especially needed, because I am sure it especially increased escape rates at high ranks.
It's clear that survivors are simply now also in need of improvements like those that killers got. While the killer buffs were great, without compensation buffs on the survivor side, it's no surprise that kill rates increased too much. And instead of reverting the killer buffs, obviously the problematic aspects of survivors need to be addressed now. I would argue the main problems are tunneling and camping on the one side, and solo queue lacking information on the other side.
The tunneling nerf was a good start, but I think most people can agree that it simply wasn't enough. It is nice to be at least somewhat less dependent on anti-tunneling perks though.
Some slowdown perks are arguably also still a bit problematic, but that's just part of the problem of certain items and perks still being too strong. Certain killers have op addons as well, and survivors have their fair share of overly strong items and addons as well, that simpy impact the balance of a match too much.
Comments
-
It only goes to show that the stats are still analyzing the wrong thing. The average kill rate tells us nothing about how the game plays out at high level, let alone tells the story of the match. A killer who got 2 kills could either have had 2 hooks or 10 hooks.
8 -
I just want to see the community NOT go into a small pp energy us vs them arguments over statistics for once, and actually professionally discuss balance issues like eruption against solo que players, or hyperfocus working with toolboxes and stakeout.
7 -
I mean, if the killer got 2 kills, the game would consider that 6 hooks minimum
4 -
It's definitely a good tell on how the game is balanced among all ranks in general. I think the amount of hooks are not as relevant when it comes to the game's average balance at first glance. Game's generally are balanced around their win conditions. Survivors are only escaping 39% of their matches, that's not very good.
This means that survivors need some help. Of course, you would want to dig deeper into stats as soon as it comes to how you want to balance the game. Obviously the game needs buffs to survivors that help against camping and tunneling, and that help solo survivors get more information. What we don't need are nerfs to killers fair and skillful playstyle.
However, in general, it does not matter how many hooks a killer gets on average when simply judging which side needs improvements next.
And also, the game can't only be balanced around high ranks. This should be pretty clear at this point.
2 -
This is true. Though to be fair I do think there are already a lot of people that do not have this ridiculous us vs them mentality. It's just some people, especially here on the forums.
It should never be an us vs them though, it should always just be about getting this game into a better state for both sides.
2 -
Then nerf the ability for killers to get 2 kills from 2 hooks. It seems to me if that was done, we would increase the ability for survivors to survive without nerfing killers who are going for hooks and not just camping to get kills.
1 -
Not if the killer 1-hooked both of those people, which is entirely possible. The hook counter may give a fake indication that you got "6/12 hooks", but you saw that you didn't get that many. Another thing that would be made more clear if killers had access to individual hook counters.
0 -
But if you one hooked them both, they're still alive right? So they're not killed
0 -
Good players are getting screwed by the DAMN matchmaking MMR is so inconsistent it's time to change this, losing beceause you have one weak link/bad survivor in your team is just stupid and frustrating.
Back then DBD didn't have that big of a playerbase to support 2 separate game modes but currently in 2022 this game came a long way and had a great growth of its playerbase(45k players average on Steam not even counting Epic Games and console players).
It's time to add a fleshed out well designed ranked game mode with a working MMR system that will show players their stats and MMR rating a better matchmaking so players will be paired with others players of similar MMR.
DBD is not really made for competitive ranked games but BHVR decided to implement MMR for some reason and they want to go that route but they're doing it the wrong way imo by making the sweaty competitive players and casual players by forcing them to play together sometimes the matchmaking will just force them to go against each other where the games are pretty much one sided...
give us a ranked game mode where sweaty players will be able to go against each others while the casual players that plays DBD just for its iconic horror IPs and fun stay safe in the casual game mode.
I am sure that the current DBD playerbase is big enough for 2 separate game modes it would be a healthy addition for the game and its playerbase overall.
3 -
They have a low escape rate because the matchmaking puts them with teammates who don't know how to play. It's what happens when your MMR system only looks at kills and escapes to determine skill placement. It's not like a fighting game where the person with the most skill simply wins and moves up. The nerfs to camping and tunneling can come after, or at the same time as, chases becoming the viable way to play. Right now it isn't; you have to take shortcuts. Hooks represent won chases. The killer successfully outplayed or outmindgamed the survivor at a loop for each hook they got. If they're only doing that 4 times max during a match, what kind of match was that? Where's the skill, from either side?
One thing you will not change my mind on is balancing around high level. If you're not balancing around high level, you're letting players who don't know how to play dictate balance, which would be appalling to any other competitive game's community. This has not been a casual party game for a long time, otherwise we wouldn't be on here talking about balance every day. Before I was an experienced player, I used to think pre-buff Ghost Face was a busted killer, so would you still have heard me out?
1 -
"That's what you'd want to tell yourself if you are a killer main that doesn't want to accept that..."
Stoped reading there. Have a nice day.
5 -
That's why most people want camping and tunneling to be nerfed.
0 -
That's a shame. And immature.
I hope you do realise that I didn't mean every killer main, just those that would tell themselves exactly such excuses.
7 -
Thinking someone is x main because of his views is what is immature.
6 -
You're drawing the wrong conclusion. Who wants to go for 2 hooks instead of 12? Nobody. But do they do it anyway? Yes, because it lets them salvage a kill or 2 in games where they otherwise wouldn't have gotten any. You're blaming the victim, if I can use that word loosely. Killers are pushed into a corner, being forced to go for kills by camping and tunneling rather than going for chases with no other strategy, which is a losing strategy, because they get called bad killers when they don't get many kills. But then those same people who called them bad, and they know who they are, also call them bad when they camp and tunnel because "it takes no skill". Then why are you pushing them away from doing multiple, skillful chases by wanting to nerf the good killers and gen defence perks? For a lot of killers out there, camping and tunneling is all they have, so if you nerf that, you can kiss them goodbye. It's not a good idea right now.
2 -
"While the killer buffs were great, without compensation buffs on the survivor side, it's no surprise that kill rates increased too much."
I think the problem is that your personal definition of "increased too much" doesn't match the devs, so I'd prepare for disappointment.
What did you think they should go to? Could you clarify your position - where do you believe the figures should be?
It's an asymmetrical game so the killer needs to have an edge, given that it's 4 vs 1 so I believe that around 60% kill rate is good.
3 -
What? No. 2-hooking means you camped them to second phase so they die the next time they get hooked, or you hooked them once and then the next time they get hooked you camp them to death. 1-hooking means you camped them to second phase, and then kept camping until they died. It's 1 hook, but you never allowed them to get unhooked. That's what killers are having to do to gain momentum, because if the survivors are efficient there's no other way to get momentum.
0 -
Oh yeah I get that, I'm just saying in that situation the hook counter in the bottom right counts every hook stage, so if a survivor goes from 1st to 2nd the hook counter goes up 1, so I was just saying the hook counter will end with a minimum of 6 if you get 2 kills
0 -
Note that kill rates were more than 50% even before and game was extremely survivor sided, so probably 60% or so is not even "high".
3 -
Killrates mean nothing when there are still acknowledged unfair "strats" that are very common that have yet to have substancial changes. (See Camping and Tunneling)
The game has less to do with skill and more to do with let's see who can cheesy out a mechanic/playstyle the fastest.
That on top of how heavy the RNG is whether it's a sweaty load out vs a non-sweaty one and vice versa. Features still lacking in Solo Q. Mobility still lacking in some killers meanwhile the ones WITH mobility get unneeded buffs. Etc
The game is an unbalanced mess so I actually laugh when the topic of "killrates or escape rates" come up.
2 -
So, 61% kill rate means that, on average, there is a slightly higher chance that only 1 survivor will make it out instead of 2?
I mean, mathematically, think about it. That means that, on average, one Survivor will escape, while the other went from a 86% chance of getting out to a 28% chance.
Obviously, this isn't actually how these things works, I'm just dumbing it down to basic averages.
Going by those dumbed down averages, on average, for every 4 survivors that enter a game, 1 will generally make it out with a second making it out slightly more than 1/4th the time. This is down from it previously being 1 getting out and another escaping as well a bit more than 3/4ths the time.
1 -
I think there is a misunderstand here. From what they wrote it seems to me they purposefully wanted to increase kill rates and they're satisfied with the result, they didn't increase "too much". It seems the idea of balance being around 50% kill rates is old news.
Still I agree that survivors could see some improvements. I would be ok with having even really low escape rates all over, if it was still fun and not extremely frustrating as it is right now.
2 -
I think biggest issue might be how powerful 3 gen is now. I lose so many soloQ games in that situation and even if we win the match it last forever. Had and hour match today agains't hag and it was not even real 3 gen situation but she had add on which makes her able to teleport on her traps when she wants. She hard camped the gens with eruption, overcharge and jolt. We got 4 man out but she kept us hostage so long so I don't know was it worth it. Maybe overcharge and eruption should be nerfed. Camping and tunneling are still bit too strong I would like to see current ds as basekit and hook state should last 70s so 10s longer than the current 60s because gens take 10s longer than before the big killer update.
2 -
Yes, the hook counter says what it says. But in reality a hook, the process of hooking someone after a chase, represents exactly that. It's not the same as 1-hooking or 2-hooking where you didn't have to go for those chases, and still got the hook state/kill. So before the devs finally start looking at hooks for statistics, they need to get that hook counter fixed, because it literally lies about what has transpired in the match.
0 -
" it's no surprise that kill rates increased too much"
According to who? BHVR says they are currently pleased with the kill rate increase. With that in mind it makes zero sense to go "Kill rates are too low buff killers but then also buff survivors" with that logic kill rates will decrease back to what they were pre-6.1.0 and we would need to buff killers again.
0 -
woah woah woah, this does not tell the balance of all tier of play whatsoever. Even the dev who posted it said take this with a grain of salt because it is a very surface level statistic. 90% of players are not high mmr and thus these would have no reflection on that. Also you have to think how much low/mid-low games are affecting these stats. Considering how early survivor is always going to be way weaker than early killer players, these stats really don't really give all on that much information on the state of the game. I do think solo queue needs some help, but only in the form of basekit info and more accurate matches.
0 -
Camping will need to be nerfed as well, and tunneling some more as well probably, if we want to go back to perfectly balanced queue times. If maps get improved a long the way as well, so we have less survivor sided maps, great. But camping, tunneling and solo queue information needs to all be addressed. We'll see what we get in the next midchapter update, but I am hoping for something good.
I said these stats show the balance of the game in general pretty well. I know that the balance shifts a bit more towards survivor at higher ranks. But you can not balance this game around high ranks and call it a day. The game also has to be balanced around middle and low ranks. That's why camping and tunneling need to be nerfed, because I do feel like those two strategies are particularly problem at low ranks, as the skill required to camp and tunnel is much lower than the skill required to combat those strategies.
These stats just double down on the knowledge that survivors need help now. Killer queue times are clearly longer, and it's not hard to see why anymore.
0 -
I mean sure, if they are also happy with the clear increased queue times for killers, which are always longer than survivor queue times.
If the devs do think that 53% kill rate is too low, and 61% kill rate is good, then that's just a mistake on their part. There is a reason why killer queue times are clearly longer right now. And people playing survivor do not care whether BHVR thinks 61% kill rates are fine or not. People want balanced games, and right now, this doesn't seem to be the case enough. Clearly there are certain aspects of survivors that need to be addressed.
I also don't see any good reason why the game shouldn't be striving for more balanced 50% kill rates. It makes no sense. Both sides want a fair chance at winning.
There is absolutely no reason why we should strive for a 61% kill rate, and only 39% escape rate, especially considering swf survivors are also part of that escape rate, unless again people are striving for those juicy longer killer queue times.
4 -
Well I didn't say that everyone with such view points is a killer main, I just pointed out that this is something that some killer mains would want to believe to make them feel better. Because I do believe some people that try to find excuses do it because of that reason. Doesn't mean everyone with that point is like that though.
0 -
I think everyone will be in for a disappointment. I in general have been playing more killer since Wesker's release, so I have the same problem every other killer has: queue times.
I think the devs are in for a disappointment themselves if they continue thinking that 61% kill rates are the way to go, especially considering that swf survivors are part of that 39% escape rate, and killers have tactics like camping and tunneling. There is a reason killer queue times are generally much longer than survivor queue times. And I don't think ignoring that fact is a good idea.
Survivor players do not care what kill rate BHVR thinks is good. People want fair and balanced matches. And, at least in certain cases, that's clearly not the case right now. Not a smart move on BHVR's side if you ask me to try and have kill rates at 61%.
1 -
Except at ~50 kill rate survivors at high levels would obliterate killers with 3k+ hours.
2 -
Well then that's not a smart move. I can maybe see why they wanted kill rates to increase by like 3 or 4%, but 8% seems crazy much.
Queue times clearly speak for this. And something that really shouldn't be ignored. Survivors want just as much of a fair chance to win. And surely this varies between mmr, but the simple fact is that some people feel like they escape way less than they die, and that is not the most fun experience.
I do agree that a 61% kill rate would be much less of a problem if tactics like camping and tunneling weren't effective, and killers got these kill rates by simply playing fairly and in a fun and skillful way. But even then, people want a fair chance at escaping matches as well. And it seems like that is not completely given at the moment. For solo queue at the very least.
This is also why I hope the devs now really look into nerfing camping and tunneling more. That would only nerf the very unfun and cheap strategies of the killers, while still keeping the normal gameplay of killers at the same power level. And it would still drop kill rates a bit, which would be a very good thing. Because again, I do not think BHVR is doing themselves a favor by wanting to have kill rates be at 60%. Not a smart move at all.
1 -
These kill rates are still a good first glance at the game's balance so to speak, and can give people an idea of the perceived game's balance, because survivors are only escaping 39% of the time, and for solo survivors it's more 30-36% probably, if the stats of swf survivors escaping 15% more often are still true, and haven't increased because of bad matchmaking.
I do not think the game's balance is that much of a mess to be honest, especially compared to how it was in the past. The killer buffs we received were all great for example. But there are still some very important steps to be made to really get this game into a better state, in particular for survivors at the moment.
Camping, tunneling, solo queue lacking information, and bad map design, are the four main problems of the game right now in my eyes. And the aspects that really need to be looked at. Obviously bad map design is very important, as some maps can still be very unfair for killer, but at the moment, survivors are the ones in need of help now, which is cleary shown by queue times. So camping, tunneling, and/or solo queue buffs have the highest priority.
And then in addition to that, you have all the other more specific aspects that cause imbalance. OP killers, Nurse and Blight, a few problematic perks, like Eruption or Pentimento, and op items and addons, like Mother-Daughter Ring from Spirit, some of Blight's addons, as well as certain toolboxes, addons, and arguably medkits just in general.
1 -
The nerf to camping you suggest is spot on in my opinion. Maybe there could be better ways to do so, but I feel like those other ways would feel unintuitive, and too complicated for newer players, like the idea of having the hook timer go down much slower when a killer is close to the hooked survivor.
So just increasing the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds would be a great start in my opinion, especially since gen times were increased as well. However, one other nerf I really want to see is hook grabs being removed. An insanely outdated mechanic, that in 99% of all cases, only ever helps killers when they camp a hooked survivor.
The tunneling nerf we got in the last chapter update was great, but also arguably not enough. And the game also finally needs buffs for solo survivors, giving them more information. However, all of these buffs together would probably also require some buffs to killers alongside. Some maps in particular still need to be looked at a bit more closely.
I do also agree that certain slowdown perk synergies are a bit too strong. In general, I feel like most slowdown perks right now are a fine. Some of them just synergies a tad too well, such as Overcharge and Call of Brine. When it comes to Eruption however, I simply believe that perk is too strong. It's much harsher on solo survivors than swf survivors. But most importantly, the incapacitated effect just lasts too long. No idea why they buffed it to 25 seconds. Somebody on the forums suggested Eruption to cause some 6 meter radius explosion, and anyone caught in that explosion would be incapacitated. It would be a nice way to make the perk effective against swf and solo survivors alike. But then the incapacitated effect also needs to be reduced back to 12/14/16 seconds, or something along that line.
0 -
The problem is that this game is far too punishing for low-mid level players and too safe for very high level players. A low-mid level survivor might last 45s - 1min in a chase where a high level player can reliably run killers for entire games. Something needs to be changed or implemented to bridge that gap some.
1 -
Now they just need to make it fun for both sides. They want survivors to fear killers but honestly they bore me more. It's hard to be fearful of something that does little to interact with you.
I also hear several streamers say survivors need more perks that are fun. Not sure what their idea of fun perks are but maybe that could be something else for the devs to improve.
0 -
How does one kill 60% of a 4 man team? Doesn't that just average out to a 2k?
0 -
If my math is correct, killers are averaging 3 kills.
0 -
Im on console so overcharge skill checks are more difficult to do so making it bit easier would be enough nerf. Eruption I think should be just regression 15-20% so it would be as good agains't swf as solos.
I agree killers need some buffs if they give solo more information. Low tier killers are still too weak and need all buffs invidially. Myers for example should never run out of stalk and I think he should have normal lunge in tier 1 and faster movement. I also wonder should all killers have ability to teleport around map to have more control of it or just have dash which makes them able to travel faster around map.
0 -
You are eight, that you can't balance without taking the high skill gameplay into consideration, but neither can you ignore the low skill crowd.
In my opinion, this was the biggest fail of the big patch, ie one blanket solution for all skill levels.
At the higher skill levels the killer game was miserable before the patch and even survivors mains in this forums pitied killers and called then masochists. The high skill game felt the impact of the patch as everyone else, but as soon as day 2 pre-patch things already normalised and one week after the patch you got your pitched battles again and nearly wouldn't feel a difference to before, if not for the absence of cheeky DH dashes.
But the low skill ranks are still reeling from the impact and not everyone adapted. Add to this the high number of actually low-skill killers who suddenly got boosted and who can only prevail via camping and tunneling, and things look pretty dull down there.
I think that we need slightly different buffs and nerfs, or modifiers, for the different MMR brackets. Killers were always scary and unsurmountable at low skill, where players don't know how to loop, how to evade and especially how not to be scared by the gens own sounds and TBD occasional terror radius, but the higher in skill you go, the stronger are survivors due to experience, game sense and coordination.
0 -
Yes; what difference in kill rate does MMR make? Hooks could be included, as well as average number of gens completed.
1 -
In real life odds (ie gambling) and every other game (ie Fighting games/LOL/OW/etc) a 40/60 (or 60/40) match up is pretty negligible, often able to swing in either direction due to player skill/luck/etc.
To address your other point, certain regression perks definitely need to have their percentages adjusted a bit, imo.
I'm not personally bothered, but knowing the math/effect on a match, I can see how it can be oppressive to other people.
0 -
Look at it this way: from 100 trials, ie 400 survivors, on average 240 die and 160 survive. This death can be anything from complete 4k, over middeling 2-3k and all the way to the baaaarely 1k category.
1 -
So long DCs and suicide on First Hook Count as Kills and the Devs doesnt only looks on High MMR Games The Killrate says nothing
Survivors are still very strong
0 -
As s solo survivor I would be ok with 45% escape rate, but ~30% is not enough.
Here's my objective view on what should be done balance-wise, without taking survivor or killer side:
- Fix tunneling/camping
- Add action icons (mainly to buff soloQ)
- Bloodlust is a good game mechanic, it helps to even out the discrepancy between bad and good loopers. While bad loopers do gown very fast, good loopers can loop killers for ages, it's hard to balance the game across all MMR levels like that, bloodlust should be more aggressive on its higher tiers.
- Jungle gyms/pallet towns can have more pallets/windows, but they should be spaced further apart from each other, so that a single survivor can't run the killer across half of the map for 10 minutes. Once you are done with a jungle gym/pallet town as a survivor you go down, unless the killer makes a big mistakes or you outsmart him. It will also help with balancing the game across all MMR levels.
0 -
Sounds pretty useless a stat then.
0 -
Here's what people might be missing. Despite the game allegedly being killer sided at low level, it's not as if the killers aren't equally as noobish as the survivors they're playing against.
That's why I didn't like the Deathslinger nerf, the Pinhead nerf, the Wraith nerf, etc. Those killers were easily dealt with at high level, but they were complained about all the time at low and mid level by survivors who couldn't adapt. Now that they're nerfed, those same survivors are still struggling with them, and the killer players who were pushing those towards viability at the top are now in the dumps more than ever, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people abandoned those killers after that. I know I did.
The point is that most killer nerfs are ill advised, because they're always nerfing killers that good survivors can beat already, for the purpose of making them less of a noob crusher. The other thing is that, again, killers aren't playing that well with those characters at lower levels, and they reach nowhere near their full potential. So when a killer gets buffed, they're not all of a sudden gonna perform way better at low level, because at low level those killer players don't execute the full potential of their killer. Survivors will lose to them, sure, and lose hard, but that's because they're inefficient and don't know what they're doing. We must balance around people who know how to play the game.
4 -
I think the gen regression we have right now is inadequate and easily countered. Pop for certain doesn't need anymore damage done to it, knocking off 3% of a gen and garbage like that.
0 -
See, here's the thing. From your post:
"I do agree that a 61% kill rate would be much less of a problem if tactics like camping and tunneling weren't effective, and killers got these kill rates *by simply playing fairly* and in a fun and skillful way"
Who defines what "playing fairly" is? Camping and tunnelling are confirmed as legit strats by the devs so by definition they're also playing fairly, no? Or does your definition mean "Killer has to go for 12 hooks?" or something else?
"Playing Fairly" sounds pretty subjective to me so you're never going to get agreement on it.
2 -
I was thinking of PR, in particular.
Aside from Pop as it's really 'progress' based and niche, now, I think anything over 10% is a bit oppressive.
10% is nice (in my eyes), as it's easy to understand (when the killer does x I lose ~10s) and decent regression.
Base regression is bad, yeah, but mini-pop kick isn't terrible - If I have the time/build to kick a gen, I look at it as a bonus instead of a reward.
0
