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Wesker is waaaaaaaaay too much.
Disclaimer: I'm not a survivor main, it feels like you have to clarify this these days when you make observations about the game. So, about Wesker:
-He's got too dashes, in case he misses one like demo, he's got a second chance.
-If you're about to vault, even if you "win the vault" as survivor, he'll be right up behind you, unlike Demo, who would go on cooldown if he misses.
-He's got zoning capabilities, even if he misses the first dash, he's got a chance that the survivor is outpositioned behind any object trying to avoid the second dash so he just goes on cooldown and M1 the survivor, I've done this several times and it happened to me as survivor. It's easy sometimes to outposition a survivor or zone them by faking the dash or going into cooldown.
-He's got a built in slow down, like Nemesis, or Pig, where survivors need to do a secondary objective.
-He's got a passive tracking ability (when survivors use the sprays he can see killer instinct) and the difference with Nemesis is that if he wants you, he can cover a lot of distance to get to you, making it easy to tunnel someone that just got unhooked and is clearing their infection.
-Map mobility, can hook and be on a distant gen almost immediately.
-Larger Terror Radius, so he benefits from perks like Starstruck, Coulrophobia, Unnerving Presence...
-He's got an "insta down" and hindered effect if you don't use the spray. Unlike Nemesis, he forces survivors to remove the virus/infection, making it stronger than Nemesis' passive ability since 99% of the time you won't have much choice but to remove the infection. With Nemesis, you don't need to remove it and he'll still need to hit you twice to down you and you won't be slowed down.
-Animations and audio queues are confusing, all you can hear is that squishy tentacle sound, it's hard to tell if he's going for a second dash, going on cooldown, faking the charge... I can hear him laughing while charging the first dash, but other than that, the animation is the same. Comparing it to nurse, she's got a clear cooldown/fatigue animation and audio cue.
-He came out on a patch where gen times are increased and the killer meta is to stack as many regression perks as possible, even more than when gens were 80 seconds. So basically, stack like 2 or 3 regression perks (eruption, pain resonance, overcharge+call of brine, etc...) and even if you're half decent you'll destroy almost any team.
-He can hit two survivors at once, which is mostly going to happen when camping and hit+apply infection the survivor unhooking and apply endurance on the unhooked. Not very important, but you can say he's stronger at camping than any average M1 killer.
-He's also one of the killers like Deathslinger and Twins that can stop you last second when you're about to leave.
-You can't flashlight save if he grabs the survivor using his dash (I've already tried it a few times, he's got iframes for flashlights even during his animation)
-Standard 115% speed, so for all I named before there is no trade off, like Death Slinger, or Hag, or Trickster, who are sort of forced to rely on their power and loop at 110%. Wesker can use his power or play like any 115% killer.
-Indirect: He added a new perk to make Starstruck Nurse even stronger (awakened awareness).
I think that's about it, I'm probably missing something, like an addon, or a strong perk combination, but let's compare him with Wraith for instance, who has no slowdown, no automatic vault, no secondary objective, nothing. Or clown, who only has bottles, not even map mobility like wraith (unless you count the antidote as map mobility).
So... what do you guys think?
Comments
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Any killer looks like "waaaaaay too much" when you compare them to clown and wraith
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As stated in many other nerf/buff wesker treads.
Leave him be. He is OK now that he has his ability hitbox increased.
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So you're just ignoring the rest of the argument and nitpicking the clown/wraith description I made for context?
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I think you are really over estimating Wesker's power.
Wesker has a 1.5 charge CD and a 1.5 cancel CD. On top of the slowdown for charging and canceling, Wesker can't really zone survivors very well faking his power as he'll be set back quite a bit if he does.
Wesker also has a 2 second window to use his 2nd bound which he can't cancel early and goes on a 3 second CD if he doesn't use the 2nd bound. 5 seconds of being slowed down just to zone a survivor is a very long time.
While Wesker has mobility if he uses both his bounds, he's only moving 21m (14m/s x 1.5 second duration for both dashes). Which then puts him into a 3 second cd. It takes 12 seconds to fully charge his power (8 seconds if everyone is infected). Complaining he's 115 because he has mobility is really ignoring how effective his mobility actually is. 21m for a 3 second CD and a 12 second recharge is okay. He can't go through walls and he can't use the 1st bound to vault if he's trying to make distance.
His large TR allowing him to take advantage of TR perks only really matters if you are on a smaller map like The Game or Midwich where the TR can cover most if not all of the map at once. On most maps a TR build isn't going to do much. It's fun to have the syngery with TR perks, but it's not really stronger than running tracking and slowdown perks.
Throwing a survivor into another survivor does not happen often enough to be a problem. Even at a situation such as using bound on the survivor unhooking a hooked survivor. Bound does not grab survivors in animation so the timing to grab the unhooker and throw them into the unhooked survivor is a very small window. I've only ever managed to hit a survivor with another survivor once in the time wesker has been out (still was awarded the achievement for doing so 10 times somehow).
The instant down on his power only happens if a survivor lets themselves gets fully infected. Which with 6 sprays and 2 charges each, it's pretty easy for survivors to not stay infected. Otherwise you are throwing survivors at nothing to build up infection (you would have to grab 4-5 times to fully infect) each time going into a 5 second cooldown just to instant down a survivor. I don't see the slowdown from sprays an issue, because Wesker's power is full of a lot of CDs and slowdowns that it only somewhat offsets that. The KI mostly just deters survivors from spraying when Wesker is nearby since otherwise Wesker's mobility isn't enough that he can just drop chase on the otherside of the map to go after the survivor who just sprayed themselves.
Lastly, stopping survivors from leaving the exit gate only matters if Wesker throws an injured survivor at the exit. In which case the mechanic only exists to give Wesker the chance to pick up the survivor they just downed with their power. Otherwise if he slams you into the exit gate, you'll be auto grabbed if injured otherwise you'll escape since there's not enough time for Wesker to recover from the slam, M1, recover from the M1 to pick you up.
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Stacking regression perks on him is an issue, but also terror radius perks are a problem on him.
You know killers only have four perk slots, right? It's gotta be one or the other. Or just say "perks are overpowered on him. All of them. All of the perks."
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Quick Question: Does Weskers Terminus Perk also apply to survivors hit after it's activation? Or is it just anyone Injured at activation?
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also after activation
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I think they need to remove the killer instinct when cleansing with a spray, yeah. He's way too good at tunneling and he does not need the benefit of free information when he's already a hyper mobile killer.
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He feels way too oppressive in a chase, especially when he zones you and then hits you with a grab that throws you in a direction where you're forced to run past him. It's impossible not to go down because you take so long to get up, his recovery is finished and he's hitting you again. And then I really also don't like how infections work. Especially if he wants to tunnel, you're toast. You're dead if you're fully infected, but if you spray, he gets free tracking. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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What is the point you're trying to make exactly? That he should be nerfed because he can be strong when you compare him to weak killers and ignore his weaknesses (like how his power is almost useless at many loops)?
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Exactly, that's mostly my point. He has too much going for him. He's already good at tunneling and chases, he also has information to tunnel. Not to mention the game slow down (survivor needing to go somewhere to do something instead of just jumping on gens like with almost the rest of the killers) and all the stuff I mentioned on the original post.
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Nah. This is ok. He can't tunnel any better then say blight, nurse, oni with charged ability and I would argue that even bubba (you can't really bodyblock against bubba).
The only change I would support is to stop infection rate when in chase (similar way as deep wounds stop once survivor is running) otherwise his tunnel capability is actually better then the rest of killers (after quite a long chase when infection kicks in)
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No.
You can compare him with almost any killer. Even with, arguably, the best killer in the game, Nurse.
She blinks and goes to fatigue, THAT'S IT.
Could you Imagine if nurse had either a slow down mechanic (like a virus or infection),
Or a passive way to locate survivors,
Or if she misses a blink she could be right on your tail for the next blink (like when whesker misses a dash to a window he'd automatically vault and be right behind you).
Or a larger TR, so "Starstruck Nurse" would be an even worse issue.
Or insta downs under certain conditions (like fully infected survivors can be insta grabbed with a dash).
Or if she could hit two survivors at once,
Or if she could stop you from leaving at the exit gates...
Any of those, any.
My point is that Wesker has a full pack of small things that make him already unbalanced and way strong, and when "Wesker mains" start popping up in the next months, believe me, you'd beg for a match against a Starstruck Nurse on Midwich instead of playing against any of them. And I didn't even mention his addons.
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wesker mobility is worse then nurse and worse then most killers because it doesn't travel as far, has long recharge time and has to respect pathing rules. With every killer, they need respect the map layout like a big building in your way? you have to walk around it as other killers including him, Nurse? Just blink through thebuilding from one end to another. Its funny you mention wraith because wraith is way better mobility since its consistently active in his cloak and has no cooldowns.
Nurse's chase is among strongest in the game because she has unique ability to blink through pallets, blink through windows and travels collective distance of 30 meters per blink, though due to average human reaction time, its closer to around ~26 meters the player has 0.3 reaction time required to decide whether to 2nd blink fully or not blink at all. Thanks to her whopping 3 second recharge time also further decreased by fragile wheeze and dull bracelet, She has 6(4 second) cooldown for these blink distances while wesker has 4x(12 sec) as much cooldown and unlike nurse's recovery add-on that shave off 33% cooldown, His version of the same add-on is 10%.
I am not even going to begin talk about poorly balanced the vaulted mechanic and charge-time/cooldown + m/s reduction for wesker debilitate his chase the better the survivor player is at utilizing his disadvantages against him.
Nurse doesn't have instant downs or larger terror radius, but she can emulate instant downs through perks. Starstruck gives situational instant downs on her while agitation increases her terror radius for starstruck. Information perks? Wow she uses them better than any other killer in the game, Just look at BBQ, Flood of rage and Awaken Awareness. Wesker's information is situational and doesn't amount to anything practical because he doesn't control when information occurs. These perks do and they have insane impact on nurse.
The infection is perhaps wesker's redeeming quality right now but you need to tunnel so hard into this gameplay to get any value from it. the actual generator slowdown is not that significant and the instant down takes too setup time to be practical in most games. you need focus entire add-on sets and builds to build around this mechanic for it to benefit you, otherwise playing normally and treating as passive barely impacts the match. your way more likely to get instant downs with starstruck nurse then this mechanic.
conclusively, his mobility is too weak and his chase too weak against stronger survivor players. The infection is ok as passive slowdown mechanic but he should not rely on critically infected survivors to be relevant. Just another water-down killer due to soloq kill-rates.
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Not really. He's mobile but not "hyper mobile" as you put it. That would be Nurse and Blight.
The solution to not get tunneled when using the spray is to, who would have guessed, do it far away from him. He's already got 40m TR, so you have even more of a waring.
The killer instinct also is important for you to keep record of used sprays. If you go for a lot of infection with the ultra rare, it's basically your goal to remove all the sprays
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Very well put.
About Nurse: I really think they should make her blinks special attacks. That would solve a lot of her problems with instadowns.
And your last point proves once more that we need soloq buffs so the Killer's can be stronger overall.
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No chance.
Sorry. But a decent Nurse on Midwich with range + recharge, starstruck, awakened awareness, darkness revealed and Lethal is still an insta kill on hook for me. I've never done this behavior before but this is an exception.
I rather play vs Wesker than this. Sorry.
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Zoning is the one thing he can do effectively with his power. Most loops are very safe vs him and you can dodge his dash easily since he doesn't have the same benefits of a Demo with his dash. Juking also works well on his 2nd dash because he only has 1 or 2s to react (unless he uses the Egg) to be pinpoint accurate.
Wesker is OK. Nothing more.
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With pallets he’s inferior to the Demogorgon since with him pallets get shredded no matter when they’re dropped while Wesker can still get pallet stunned.
Vaulting is quite weak since he can’t do anything after for a few seconds, his iridescent add-on that destroys pallets are good but he still takes long enough that he can be flashlight blinded.
Agree his mobility is good but not Nurse or Blight good in chases and not as good as either of those or killers like Dredge at moving round the map.
His large aura seems to be one of his stronger points when you use the right perks but that means no gen slowdown or detection perks if you go all in.
Instadown is quite rare since there’s lots of sprays and are quick to apply.
Overall I’d say he’s A tier, not as high as Nurse or Blight but around Spirt/Pyramidhead level (Probably lower at top level play) but he does seem easier to use effectively than most killers so at lower MMR he’s probably more oppressive.
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If your answer to a killer's power is "juke them", that's the issue with the killer. Good killers don't fall for jukes that easily. I don't agree at all with what you're saying.
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weaker is fine and balanced, last two killers were a disappointment wesker is refreshing and we needed that.
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So.... You have a problem with Huntress, Slinger, Demo, Pinhead, Pyramid Head or Nemesis too? Because guess what: you dodge their abilities by juking so the killer misses their shot.
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... And that's why we love him!
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You dodge their abilities by breaking line of sight. That's the correct and consistent counterplay. Juking is a last resort that you only try when you're about to go down and can't break line of sight.
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A killer that can't even use their power on every single tile and location in the game is too much? What?
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so how does killer counter-play line of sight if line of sight is consistent counter-play against his ability?
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DBD players figuring out what happens when zoning killers zone you effectively (You go down quickly). Don't run loops in a way that let's him zone edge map with throws it's the equivalent of pathing into a corner after taking a hit from huntress.
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I think you're describing a killer and his powers.
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If anything, he should get a small 3rd dash so he can properly play around rounder tiles.
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A lot of "jUsT jUkE" answers.
Ok... applying the same dumb logic I don't know what the problem is with nurse. JUsT jUkE hEr and you'll be fine, right? She's a balanced killer. No core issues, no problems at all, nothing. JuSt jUkE.
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LOS block is not an automatic dodge. It's just harder.
Maybe we undrestand something different when taking about juking and dodging.
So I clarify: You can still dodge Huntress, PiH, PyH, Slinger, Wesker or Demo by being unpredictable.
Just accept that you don't see counterplay vs Wesker when there truely IS counterplay against him. I've played as him and against him enough to know that.
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I don’t see counterplay where you do. What you’re suggesting is an inconsistent, unreliable strategy. I don’t see that as counterplay. I see it as a last ditch effort that doesn’t work if the killer knows what they’re doing, Breaking LOS or putting an object between you and Wesker is the only reliable and consistent way of staying safe.
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Maybe we see this different then.
But please stop saying "you can't escape his power" when you CLEARLY just said that you just put an object between you and him. Something that does not work vs Blight (on most small tiles), Huntress, Trickster, Slinger, Nemesis etc. Even a tree trunk can stop Wesker from using his power. There you go: counterplay! Use a tree! Or a barrel, tires! And don't forget that you can well stun him mid dash with a pallet. Or make him bounce or slide off it if the dropping animation is not 100% complete (something you can do as Legion btw. feels bad man). I've seen that a lot too.
And this is all I will say to you, because you are clearly the opinion that Wesker is op while Blight and Nurse still exist.
Maybe you want to nerf Pig instead.
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By only using Autoheaven offerings.
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nurse is not same as Wesker. Wesker is straight line skillshot with travel time. Its possible side-step his dash as seen by when his hitbox was 20 meters. Still possible but it is easier for Wesker to hit you with 30 cm. At middle and max distances. you can consistently dodge his bounds if you make the correct read. Wesker has no zoning, He is all about dodging the skillshot except when he can't physically use it because of large cast times and... pallet dropping.
Saying you can juke Nurse is like saying you can 360 killers. you can't juke M1 attacks. The only aspect you can do is to try make the nurse make a mistake using her blinks such that she is not in distance to m1, but that is easier said then done considering her ability to blink through objects at fast speeds. She exhibits an unhealthy amount of zoning that is largely unpreventable in most instances.
Wesker is everything for how nurse should play minus the bad variable balance.
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Incredibly based, and he is also wesker. Easily my favorite killer.
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please for the love of hell just leave em be, he is LITERALLY the only killer in this game that is fun but doesn't feel broken 102% of the time
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I will say that while Wesker's cooldowns and slowdown prevent him from being a good zoner on it's own. The animation from the survivor perspective when it comes to Wesker cancelling his power is often not clear enough, imo. While on Wesker's screen it'll show the Uroboros virus losing it's grip and going back into his arm, it doesn't really convey that well on the survivor side.
There is a sound that plays when this is happening, but it's can be easy to miss especially over his music.
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yeah its one of those things where you need to play killer and memorize data on killer.
For example, when I play against pinhead, There is no indication where his gateway portal spawns for the survivor, but I can visualize the travel time when pinhead shows his animation of his hand going forward where the gateway travel-time is going without indicator allowing you to play mindgames where he doesn't just spawn the gateway on you and instantly chain hit you. memorizing cast times and cooldown times is important vs all killers, like Twin's victor, Clown's bottle arc, Deathslinger's gun, Plague's puke etc.
You have to know when can use killer the ability to hit you and when he cannot so you know when to starting juking and when to keep running forward.
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I never said you can't escape his power, #########? I said if he ALREADY GRABS you, you can't escape when you're forced to run past him. Wesker isn't op, Blight and Nurse are op. Wesker just feels oppressive in multiple situations.
Idk what to tell you. If you can't read, I can't teach you how to do that.
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WESKER WAY STRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE CAN DOWN SURVIVORS????? i am sorry but hes not hard to loop if u played against blight at least once
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Counterplay should not be reliable and consistent in the first place. That means if you do X, you can always reliably and consistently counter Y. That is dumb design. Mindgaming/soft counters are good design, because it requires actually having to make the better call each time, instead of some action automatically doing it for you.
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Then it was your fault that he could throw you into nothing in the first place.
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Exactly.
that's the only thing that bothers me. I get it they wanted it to be similar to Nemmy but you don't HAVE TO cleanse straight away.
With Wesker, you pretty much have to because you either get exposed, slowed down, or insta grabbed and killer instinct is just giving you away again when you just been unhooked.
Doesn't matter if I do it on the other side of the map, he can just get there super fast with his dashes.
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