http://dbd.game/killswitch
Waiting for hatch incentivizes survivors to break the rules and hold the game hostage
Hiding and making no attempt to finish generators while Endgame Collapse cannot be started is against the rules. This is not about being chased off. This is about not trying to repair at all. Survivors are required to attempt to repair. This is not up for debate.
Hatch requires only one survivor to be remaining in the trial, because multiple survivors being able to escape without finishing their objective rewards failure.
In situations such as two survivors are dead and the generators are not finished, or when survivors end up in a 3-gen situation, this incentivizes breaking rules by hiding and doing nothing till the others die for a chance at the hatch. This is a fundamental design issue that needs to be addressed.
Comments
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It's always going to be a problem in a game like this, even if you just removed the hatch entirely
There are too many survivors in the game that when it is (basically) hopeless will decide to just hide and all it takes is for two (or more) of those hiders to be in the game when it feels like it is hopeless to get stuck. Whether they hide out of spite, they think it might give them a chance to escape maybe, or for some other reason, hiders are always going to be an issue in the game unless BHVR does something to force them out of hiding (like the suggestion some have given that if you don't touch a gen for X Minutes, you get AFK crows or a hard time limit in the match).
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It isn't a design issue per say.
In a 1v2 they could get the gens done and open the doors, but if there are too many gens to get done then, unless the not hooked survs wants to risk no one escaping and go for the save, then hiding is the appropriate response. Even if they could unhook and escape in the situation, It may not be at all worth or it or a smart idea depending.
In a normal 3 gen, it's still possible that means 1 gen needs to get done. Unless there are already less survivors than they should get done. If there aren't alive survivors then yeah...there not much to do but wait.
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This is something that old hatch could have prevented. If the game had a bad start for survivors, At least it encouraged survs to keep repairing hoping they could do enough to allow a 2-man escape with hatch.
Good ol dayss
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Well one survivor needs to show up and die, otherwise the game will last for another 10min.
I am usually that survivor because I dont have time for this
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Can we stop saying that playing the game normally is holding the game hostage? I've been seeing these comments for a couple of days now. Holding a game hostage is blocking someone in a corner. Waiting for hatch is perfectly normal if the situation looks hopeless. Nobody will ever do gens if they see that they can't make it with 2 survivors and 3 gens remaining.
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Well, doing gens punishes the one doing it and rewards the one hidding. I was often in that situation, and its a lose-lose situation.
Why should i continue to risk myself when the killer gives the one hidding an easy pass?
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I think there is a design issue in that I believe the game should have an internal timer where, if no points are scored by any player for, say, five minutes then it sends the game into sudden overtime or simply ends the game in a draw. That would prevent these corner case scenarios where survivors are just hiding and the killer can’t find them and nobody is accomplishing anything to progress the game to an end for a really, really long time.
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Yup, it would counter obsessive 3-genning to a degree.
Always hated how bhvr butchered the old hatch instead of slowly nerfing it like usual
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No if two survivors are hiding and NOT doing Gens they are refusing to progress the game and can be reported for holding the game hostage. It's not just about pinning someone in a corner.
A Killer can't repair Gens and can't start EGC without said Gens done. If the said Survivors are locker hopping to avoid the idle crows a Killer ming never find them depending on the size of the map.
If you need proof then just look at the pictures in OPs post
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But the actual hatch allowed this current problem to exist.
If two surv are left, and more than 1 gen remains there is no reason to try to keep repairing unless you want the killer to kill you. Back then you would keep on repairing in the hopes you could get a key.
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There's nothing survivors can do to win the game when more than one gen remains in a 2v1. The only option available for anyone to escape is to play for hatch. It's something that could probably be iterated on, like how VHS has a Rift system to prevent stalemates. Because survivors just have to not care or be dumb to hop on gens at that point.
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You know whats worse than 2 survivors hiding and not doing gens?
All 4 hiding and not doing gens on a map like rpd
Post edited by BoxGhost on2 -
??? Because you are required by game rules to play? It’s a lose-lose because two survivors left before gens are done means the killer outright stomped the survivors. Why would it not be overwhelmingly not in your favor?
That’s like asking why you can’t sandbag/AFK/etc if the side you’re playing is getting hyper stomped because you’re saying the match is basically lost anyways. Doesn’t matter. It’s because it’s literally part of the rules. It not being in your favor is not an excuse to break the rules.
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I think the only problem is that going in and out of lockers shouldn't reset the crow timer.
If entering and exiting the same locker repeatedly in a corner caused crows to begin to appear, then the survivors would have to walk around to different areas of the map and be exposed longer to the point where they might get seen or at least be forced to work on a generator or some other objective.
But, at the moment, you can just enter and exit a locker in a corner nowhere near the generators until someone gets bored.
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And what is your idea to fix this? Let’s say 2v1 with 3 gens left. If the survivors are smart, they play for hatch. Doing a gen is not worth it at this point.
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It also punished tunneling because it spawned faster if 1 survivor died early. They could’ve rebalanced keys a bit to make it more fair instead of killing them.
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A better AFK crow system to make it impossible to hide if they don’t progress gens. And then maybe also an overall time limit for any given match. Example of my rework to the AFK crow system here:
Multiple survivors escaping without finishing every single generator was fundamentally irreparably overpowered. But this is also not the topic of this thread.
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You still needed 4 gens done with one surv dead but it is better than nothing.
The devs could have done a lot of things to nerf it without being an 1man option.
They could have removed hatch offerings, increase the bp cost of key in bloodwebs or even remove it from the bloodweb and make it obtainable in-game only.
They took the lazy option.
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Please go make a different topic if you want to discuss about old hatch in further depth. Trying to keep this thread on-topic mostly.
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Ok I respect your work you put into creating this idea but honestly, hiding from the killer and being stealthy is one of the most fun things to do as survivor atm. It’s smart to do that as well, it can win the survivors a match.
If you don’t want to deal with hiding survivors, you can use spies from the shadows or darkness revealed.
I think your 4 minute timer for afk crows is a bit overkill.
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All i am saying is that you dont want survs hiding in 2v1 situations, yet you also dont want any incentive for them to keep repairing, like the old hatch did.
If you are in the situation of 2v1 with >2 gens remaining, you usually dont repair because you are asking to be killed. At that point, it is usual for the two remaining to hide so if the killer finds one, the other can try hatch
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There’s a difference in stealth while playing and stealth in the form of refusing to play by the rules. People should not be forced to use a perk just in case someone breaks rules.
Going to be blunt, a 4m timer that pauses under multiple scenarios and goes half-speed in others is more than enough time for anyone who actually intends to play by the rules.
The incentive is that not doing so is against the rules, and that there should be systems in place like the AFK crow rework to make hiding and refusing to play for an extended period of time outright impossible. Or would you also suggest if a killer gets only a few hooks, then you give buffs to incentivize them to keep playing instead of just AFKing (against rules)? Rewarding people for not doing well instead of punishing attempts to actively break rules makes no sense.
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Sorry but a afk crow timer will never be a thing in dbd. Hiding survivors are really not that big of a deal and stealth shouldn’t be nerfed. I personally don’t want to be under constant stress about my afk crow timer when I’m outplaying a killer. And I don’t want to be forced to do anything at all times. Sometimes I just want to explore a new map and not have crows over my head while doing so. Sometimes I just wanna have a fun stealth match.
Im sure you can understand this.
Lets not punish innocent survivors by implementing an unnecessary stressor to the game, please.
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"Refusing to play" depends on the situation of the game.
If the game is in a state where it is impossible to escape by repairing gens (2v1, 3gens or more), the remaining survs are not "refusing to play" because they dont repair. It is because repairing gens is the same thing as throwing yourself to the killer.
As there is NO OTHER WAY to escape in that situation other than hatch, it is EXPECTED that survs hide until one of them is found out and killed as the game LEAVES YOU NO OTHER OPTION because everything else is certain death.
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In what situation would you literally ever set off that timer without breaking the rules? 4 minutes of nothing but crouching/walking/hiding, 8m of nothing but running/hiding in 8m of the killer out of chase, or infinitely paused as long as you’re in chase or doing/receiving a Conspicuous Action. I’d genuinely like to hear.
It literally does not matter. You are required to continue to engage in normal gameplay (attempting to repair gens, even if it’s a cat-and-mouse game of being chased off and then getting back on), as per the rules. Not doing so is reportable. Being disadvantaged does not excuse breaking the rules. You are in that situation because the killer did overwhelmingly better than the survivors in that game in the first place.
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I just don’t want to play by your rules. I want to play how I want and do what I think is fun. Period and out.
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Let me clarify.
I am not defending hiding for the sake of bothering the killer, as in 4 surv alive and x survivor decides to hide in a corner of a map. I truly hate survs hiding for no purpose.
Said that, in the previously mentioned situation (2v1 >3gens) i can accept the survs hiding to try to get hatch as they are not able to escape in normal ways. Even if you are brick-wall-like with rules book in hand, no survivor is going to let themself be killed by repairing in a lost match when they could try hatch.
Said that, if the devs give survs the old hatch back, i wouldnt care if you use the afk crow system or if i had a bunker alarm tied to my chest throwing fireworks into the sky because i would always be repairing.
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You know what's not against the rules? Camping. In fact, it's the VERY FIRST item on the list of things that aren't bannable (so don't report them).
All this talk of how to fix the Camping/Tunneling problem, and it's not even against the rules!
I guess if the survivor sits still in order to increase their chances from 0% to anything, that's a big enough problem to warrant an entire thread's worth of hand-wringing, but if the killer sits still in order to increase their chances from 61% to 100% that's not even worth adding to the ruleset (that everyone ignores anyway) on the website
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It’s not my rules. It’s BHVR’s. What you want is reportable. Period and out.
If the AFK crow system was improved, then that would solve everything. Because then the survivors are free to hide the way they do now. It’s just that will get them guaranteed revealed to the killer for actively refusing to participate in normal gameplay as per official game rules. If they don’t want to repair so they hide until the reveal kicks in, that’s their own prerogative at that point.
Yes, because one is a strategy acknowledged by BHVR and the other is refusing to play by the rules. Very apt observation.
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I still would love to see a QoL change where if there two survivors left and the killer doesn't get in a chase within 60 seconds, killer instinct activates, revealing their location.
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What about the other guy. So he is allowed to hide and not do a gen as long as i am doing it? If not, why is there no sanction for him? If yes, who decides who is allowed to hide and who not?
That was the question i was aiming at.
Edit: Also, one could argue, its the job of the killer to find survivors and kill them, not to stand near the gens and wait for survivors to come to him.
Edit2: The objective of the survivor is to survive, not to do gens. Gens are just the way for survival if more than one want to escape. So one could argue, hidding until the other one gets found IS doing the objective.
And to be clear, i am the guy that gets found because he is doing gens. And i had games in that situation, where the other survivor and i did finish 3 gens and both escaped. It does happen, but in solo queue, more often than not the other guy is hidding.
Also: i run bound almost every game, and if i am one of the last 2 survivors, i sometimes start searching the other guy. And when i see him in a corner or just walking in circles in the basement, why should i sacrifice myself i the other one is not playing the game at all?
Thats the answer i would like to hear.
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2v1 stalemate should be reworked. Technically sure survivors can still do gens but in fact it's just a hatch game at this point. It's like asking killer to apply pressure during egc instead of just camping and securing a kill. Objective is changed and survivors' objective in 2v1 scenarios are not gens but hatch.
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I would not try to repair a gen in a survivor stalemate. And I feel throwing oneself at the killer by doing it isn’t really normal gameplay either.
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Both of you would be expected to participate in normal gameplay (attempting to repair).
In response to your first edit, it is unrealistic for the killer to find people intentionally hiding and avoiding AFK crows without luck or an absurd amount of time burnt doing so, unless they were lucky enough to play a killer/use add-ons/auras that can solve the situation.
Your second edit is objectively wrong. BHVR has explicitly stated survivors are not allowed to hide and refuse to attempt to repair for extended periods of time.
Someone else breaking rules doesn’t mean it’s okay for you to do it too. Report them with video evidence in-game and on the support page.
Take it up with the devs who have explicitly stated survivors are required to attempt to repair. Just because you got in a disadvantaged situation (which happened because the killer did overwhelmingly better than the survivors for that result to happen) does not excuse breaking rules.
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I saw your opening post. Frankly, I’d need something current and official from the devs regarding this situation, not off-color remarks that are kind of unclear. Mandy’s comment specifically didn’t seem related to the situation you described, and I’m sure if I asked Peanits, “So if there are 2-3 gens left and I’m facing Nurse, should I turn myself over to the killer by working on a Gen?” He wouldn’t say “Yes.”
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Mandy’s response was from another thread about the exact same topic. Also, Peanits would tell you to not hide and do nothing until the other dies for hatch, because that is against rules.
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Nope. Theoretically, 1 can run the killer for long enough while the other does a gen or 2. You just don't see it much because people don't bother to try.
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But in said situation it's is Refusing to Play the game this HAS been answered multiple time by Peanits and Mandy. I don't know why any thread like this breaks down to people ignoring that one simple fact. Saying no they can't get punished or that they are just "playing the game".
Playing stealthy is fun yes but when I use it and refuse to try and repair Gens only in hopes that either the other survivor dies or the Killer just DCs because we held the game hostage.
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Remove hatch then, simple. The devs should not expect the two players to sacrifice for the other player to get hatch. Also, hiding is holding the game hostage, apparently the rule about it is not objective like bodyblocking 4 survs. Either way, nonsensical interpretation of the rule if hatch exists.
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I don’t get why people have this weird misconception whether or not it breaks game rules is up for debate at all.
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Yeah, I find the hatch standoff so frustrating no matter whether I play killer or survivor.
I played as Dredge before on Midwhich and managed to get 2 kills with 2 gens still remaining. I'm not exaggerating when I say it took over 10 minutes to find one of the two final survivors, as they had both obviously been stealthing around the map waiting for the other to die. When I finally hooked one they were second hook stage and despite me moving far from the hook, the other one didn't save them. I fell really lucky and the hatch spawned right near me, so I closed it straight away and managed to get the other one really easily due to the gate spawns on Midwhich. I checked their perks at the end screen and they were running the 'selfish survivor' build with No One Left Behind and Sole Survivor. I know people like to play the game differently, but people need to understand you get far more points for at least trying to complete gens and escape. I like the hatch mechanic in the sense that it gives the final survivor a chance at escaping, but at that stage, it's still a resounding win for the killer so I don't know why people put so much effort into trying to get hatch. I'd rather get more points for doing gens/saving knowing I'm probably not going to escape, than hide around the map in order to get some tiny "win".
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A gen or two by one person? What killer is getting run for 90+ seconds?
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They should really solve these problems with the game's design.
This is the only game I've ever played in which playing to win can be interpreted as a bannable offense.
If only the devs could do something about it...
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Yeah, can’t believe hiding somewhere and doing literally nothing to progress the game until the other person dies while intentionally bypassing the AFK alert system to artificially draw out the game to an absurdly long point because of how realistically arduous it is for a killer to find people hiding like that unless they happen to have a power/add-ons/perks that would help is against the rules. Makes no sense.
But hey, there’s something we agree on, the devs can fix this. Improve the AFK crow system to make hiding like this for extended lengths of time literally impossible. Problem solved.
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The ones I play against seem to have no problem chasing me for over 90 seconds....
lol, that response is gold 👏
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Sure, long chases *can* happen. I'm just saying, in a 2v1 in this scenario, why would a killer hard commit for any length of time and let the remaining gens go? It takes multiple parties not thinking about the situation at all for more than 1 gen to be completed in a 2v1.
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DbD is full of stupid things like this, how can they make a rule about it while also encouraging it lol.
Almost trolling tome challenges has to be seriously changed, too.
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At some point a killer will need to commit to a chase, because no matter what they cannot defend 2 gens.
Typically, killers will take a healthstate from one survivor and then commit to chase with the other--hoping the injured survivor wastes time healing or will be available later as an easy down.
Unless the remaining gens are in deadzones, a killer should commit to one chase because pinballing between gens is just going to lose them pressure. 60 seconds can fly by faster than most killers may realize; 3 vaults around a T & L is pretty standard and that can take up to 30 seconds--even more when you factor in the time it took to take chase there and to take chase away from there.
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Add this to the list of things that make this game’s mechanics antiquated: solo/SWF gap, Nurse’s power, the need to camp/tunnel to compete, servers/security/coding. I know this is not a popular opinion, but I really believe BHVR needs to make a sequel (yes I know they said “no” to doing so).
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Any M1 killer when there's still loops on the map. The survivor doesn't make a mistake, the chase can go on and on.
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