Zanshin Tactics discussion
Continuing a series of threads on the least used perks according to the aggregate site Nightlight, next up is Oni's perk Zanshin Tactics (0.34% usage)
Zanshin Tactics - The auras of all pallets, breakable walls, and vault locations are revealed to you within a 24/28/32 meter range.
This perks is an interesting example of how something can be really, really great for one side of the game and not that good for the other side. Windows of Opportunity has essentially the same identical effect as Zanshin Tactics, showing survivors the auras of all pallets, breakable walls, and vaults. But while Windows is currently the most picked survivor perk on the site at 24.6% usage (just barely edging out Dead Hard), Zanshin Tactics is one of the least used killer perks.
And the reason is simple - survivors benefit MUCH more from knowing where pallets and vaults are then killers do. That's because survivors are the ones who actually want to use those props in a chase and are also the ones who for the most part steer the direction the chase is going with the killer following the survivor trying to catch up to them. Survivors get a lot of tactical benefit knowing in advance exactly what path they can use to run toward a pallet or vault, while killers don't really benefit as much from knowing where the pallets and vaults are because their main focus is simply following the survivor in front of them (more or less).
Personally I don't think simply extending the range of Zanshin Tactics would do anything here. Seeing pallets 50 meters away versus 30 meters away won't help the killer. Instead, the perk needs a secondary effect that thematically compliments the main ability but that is more useful for the killer. One possibility I like is to allow the killer to, once or twice per match, preemptively destroy an undropped pallet. This would allow a killer to, for example, intentionally go and destroy a god pallet in the killer shack or elsewhere before it can even be used, much like they can break breakable walls to weaken other loops. This ability would have to be strictly limited either to one or two uses or to having a very, very long cooldown, otherwise it could be potentially overpowered if it allowed a killer to break too many safe pallets too quickly at the start of the match. But in limited quantity it would be a pretty decent perk and fit the theme.
Comments
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giving the killer the ability to destroy undropped pallets as a secondary effect is super strong, even with high cd or limited usage.
In fact, some perks were made just for strategy purposes, as in the case of zashin, which you can zone the survivor to areas where there are fewer pallets available (very good with Deathslinger) or go ahead and win a loop with mindgame using this perk, making the perk by itself a very solid and CONSISTENT effect, even if the perk isn't used as much. In the same theme there is, for example, the stridor perk, which makes the survivor more audible and is also a strategy/chase/track very consistent, not so picked or used, even with the ironwill nerfs.
if you want to increase the use of a perk that already has a consistent effect, it's not giving another good and GOD one, but doing what BHVR did with the survivors' meta perks, nerfing the most used ones or make ohers a base kit effect, like maybe make corrupt, and releasing a perk slot.
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There's nothing wrong with strategic perks, it's just that Zanshin Tactics is not an effective one for killers.
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The point is exactly that, there's nothing wrong with the perk like i said with stridor, even little used.
The effect is consistent enough, it's just not used much because other perks are more advantageous and better used by all killers.
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I remember when we discussed this in an earlier thread quite some time ago.
Well, I would like an effect like this, but obviously balance is a very tricky thing with something like this. Here is some ideas:
- one use on tier 2, two uses on tier 3
- 2min cooldown between uses.
- can't destroy God palettes OR destroying a God palette uses up both charges
- with the power of the third eye, raise up a destroyed palette as a ghostly figment
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What makes this perk worse is that a good killer already basically has this perk through good game sense. You will likely remember which pallets you have broken on certain map areas.
A really simple solution for this perk would be to change it's primary function. While in a chase a survivor that runs through a pallet automatically forces it to drop. Make this happen once every 80 seconds. As a bonus let the killer see the auras of vaults/windows as it does now.
-"can't destroy God palettes OR destroying a God palette uses up both charges"
That would make the effect worthless.
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Here is another idea thats more a QoL change that wouldn't really buff the perk and I don't know HOW useful it would be.
Give the perk a counter, much like Small Games has for totems, but let it show you the total number of palettes on the map, counting down. When you deplete all palettes there is a thunderclap sound and you auto win (thats a joke, btw).
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drop a pallet every 80 seconds?? Broken and would be a meta perk always used, they (killers) would always use it at the beginning of the game in the most safe, unless it has a strong downside, which would be not being able to break pallets anymore (only after survivor vault it), or else giving the survivors a perk to rebuild broken pallets every 80 seconds.
Anyway, zashin doesn't need that, there's nothing wrong with a strategic perk that has a solid effect and is better and much more used by few killers.
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Zanshin doesn't have a "solid effect" for killers, I think you're greatly overestimating it. Just my opinion.
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I know you're joking but a perk that gives the killer an alternate win condition could be kind of cool. Or at least funny to pull off. 😄
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I like zanshin tactics on pyramid, you can prepare your power before survs reach something or try to hit a survivor trough the wall, knowing that he might vault a window to make more distance or to be more safe.
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It's a good perk for some killers and for new players that are discovering the map
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By "solid effect" read something that does not depend on anything to be activated, which is reading the auras of windows and pallets.
Ps: unlike survivors that you can simply say that a little used perk is in fact bad, since they are all purely "skins", with killer you can't say the same thing, everyone is unique. I.E: Spirit make a insane use of perks like stridor that is currently little used according to the site you extract the information from perks, and there's nothing wrong with that, the perk already has a solid and good effect.
Anyway, this is just my observation and opinion.
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Ok, I could maybe see Zanshin helping Pyramid Head aim his shots through walls towards a vault a survivor is about to use. It's hard to picture other killers getting similar value (except maybe Artist? None of the others can shoot through walls.)
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I actually like Stridor personally.
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destroying standing-pallets is hex-level power-level perk. there is zero chance that should be put on Zanshin tactics. Zanshin is meant to be beginner-type perk for learning the map tiles as killer. Not every perk needs to have a use. Some perks can be learning perks.
I thought about giving Zanshin tactics an actual effect which goes as follows:
Survivors near dropped pallets have their aura revealed within 6 meters of a pallet. This effect lingers for 2 seconds but upon further review. I think its better to just make new perk then to try to change a perk made for new players.
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If it were meant as a "beginner level perk" it wouldn't be locked behind a dlc character, it would be a generic perk.
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you can buy oni's dlc with real money and pick him as your first character to max. Kate is dlc character. nothing different for her windows.
realistically, the only killer where zanshin tactics has any relevance is doctor because part of his skill-floor is knowing where pallets are so that you can prevent pallet drops.
At the same time, Windows and Zanshin tactics are pointless perks the more experience you become at killer and survivor because you should have windows and zanshin in your head for every map after enough play-time. for me, on personal level, it took me around 500 hours of one-tricking survivor before I was custom to every single map. hardest map for me to learn were indoor maps. old pre-rework Lery in particular was hardest one for me. so that is my personal experience with learning maps.
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I think this perk needs to be completely reworked.
I have wondered about this PERK since it first appeared with Oni.
The word "zanshin" or "残心" is derived from kendo.
Its meaning is the mindset of not letting one's guard down even after attacking an opponent.
What does it actually mean?
This perk just shows the location of windows and pallets.
Moreover, when it first appeared, there was even a coold time for this effect for a certain period of time after hitting the survivor with an attack.
It seems like an effect far removed from the original meaning of the word. If possible, I would like it to be a PERK that gains a benefit after the attack.
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Downside you break pallets 25% slower
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well, I've been reflecting a little and if the perk really needs some QoL adjustment, it would be at most to remove the distance limitation of the auras, leaving it much better for the killer to evaluate all the map as for zoning strategy, and not just for mind games on the nearby pallets/windows.
ps: Just for the purpose of fitting with tiers I. II, III, it would be something 32, 64, 128 meters
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Windows of Opportunity isn't just a "beginner perk", it's actually extremely useful for all survivors which is why it's currently one of the top most used survivor perks.
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Would still be very weak for a real downside. It has to be at least 50% slower to compensate for the use of possible perks together that would create synergy and completely nullify the downside that would be Brutal Strength (20%) + Fire Up (20%). That way the killers would be forced to really only use the perk together, not alone, but anyway, zanshin doesn't need that, and a perk like that would actually be a hex type
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I think window is overrated because you can develop skills to emulate the perk's effect. I understand that it is top played perk because many survivor value the information in being able to not go in deadzones in the chase from soloq problems but you can somewhat cross reference a killer's position and the survivor position by using terror radius and your map location for when your repairing a generator. For example, let us say your repairing the Ormond most central generator in the big building, if you do not hear a terror radius, it means that the killer is likely not on left or right hand side of the building so those pallets are not getting broken and the killer is will be on southern side somewhere along the shack-side east-west or the killer will be on northern side up at the top loops. You can use process of elimination on most maps to figure out what pallets are being broken and where your teammates are getting chased.
Its just that it takes a lot of game-sense and game knowledge to develop the skill to not need window of opportunity. that is why people use it because having to make reads(guesses) on your teammate and the killer is difficult. Using the perk is just easier. Just another one of those perks that make you closer to SWF in soloq. no more guessing, just straight 100% accuracy.
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Forced droping the pallet would be insanely OP.
Some killers actually benefit really hard from such an interaction (I am looking especially at the 2 of you huntress and pyramidhead, but even trickster and nurse would love these and other killers would still benefit from it). The original aura reveal would be totally pointless part of the power.
As noted in beginning, it should be something thematically identical. So information (aura during animation without lingering effect - it's used during chase so killer sees it already) about a person vaulting any pallet or window at any speed in a radius of a perk would be thematical and not too OP (keep in mind this is secondary effect and should be both weaker AND different from "I am all ears"). I would be perfectly OK with such a buff to a perk
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I have no idea if it’s over or under rated, opinions vary obviously on the perk. Either way though your description of the type of skill needed to intuit the same sort of information is well beyond beginner level players. You can make a similar argument for any information perk by saying with strong game sense you can get a feel for where the other players are and which gens are being worked on and so on. But clearly that doesn’t make perks like BBQ and Chili or Call of Ruin or Kindred “beginner level perks” or only useful for weaker players.
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Force dropping of multiple pallets would be OP, I’m skeptical forced dropping of a single pallet per game would be problematic though.
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if this perk would force single survivor to drop single pallet as soon as he runs over it, then it's underwhelming perk. I agree with that one. If the perk has some reasonable cooldown (say even 1 minute), then it's VERY strong. On some killers more then on others (I think it would be OK perk against clown, but really OP against huntress).
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Just to clarify it would be the killer dropping a single pallet, not the survivors. So the killer would get the Interaction prompt when they’re at an undropped pallet and if they interact with it the pallet gets dropped or destroyed and the perk is disabled. Typically I imagine this would mean the killer might go to something like shack, for instance, and get rid of that pallet at the first opportunity.
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This perk could be really strong on not worth at all depending on the map. On one hand you have shelter woods and on the other you have the game. But overall - if the cooldown is high enough (I am not willing to even guess the number), then it could potentially work.
I am pretty sure that I would hate the perk with passion (I don't use WoO and rely on pallets by map knowledge and generally making note of where was the killer last), but it shouldn't be bad perk overall (one less generator slowdown perk I guess).
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Id use it even if it did nothing at all but gave extra BP
Cant think of anything it would relate to tho
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