Old Pop was good for the game

Old pop rewarded the killer for hooking There's no reward to keep chasing new people so your best bet is to remove one person from the game.

Survivors find a generator and get it to 33% and then stop right? No they finish it. Killers do exactly the same. Both sides create a feedback loop that makes for more tunneling.

Agreed, it was a very well designed perk that was strong and rewarded the killer for playing more fair/fun (IE leaving the hook or hooking multiple survivors).

This.

His comparison is like half chasing survivor and leaving him be. Then going for other survivor and when within 2m distance - leaving him be again. And he calls that tunneling gens

I think pop is largely fine. Being current progress instead of max progress is fine although it probably didn't also need a value nerf as well. You can control which gen you pop so it's not like you are forced to use it on a gen with little progress.

Pop would probably see play if there weren't just better slowdown perks that can do the same thing as pop, but more consistently

"The rule you are setting here by definition then means that Otz has no skill as a 9000 hour player. Every time I tune in to watch his killer stream after a few games he has one tough match where he has to camp tunnel and slug to win."

-I do watch Otz and I've never seen him tunnel. Camp only in an endgame situation, I've never seen otz hook one survivor at 5 gens then just facecamp him for 5 minutes. Otz would not be a famous streamer if he did that, nobody wants to watch Meg's crotch for 5 minutes. I think.

"Generators are the [survivor?]'s objective. Removing them too fast reduces the killer's enjoyment of the game - but almost nobody thinks about that"

-Losing in a game is frustrating, but even if no one wants to admit it in the moment, we do actually enjoy our time regardless of our final score. We wouldn't play a game that we only enjoy about 50% of the time. You described a situation where the killer loses the game. it happens. But if the survivors just played better, it's alright.

I'd much rather have a fair game that I lost, rather than spend a game chasing toxic tea bagger/spam clickers, even if I end up with 3 kills, and the 4th escapes while still being toxic. It's still a win, but it's not enjoyable.

Believe it or not but people around here enjoy the game. it's not perfect. it has tons of flaws. But it's enjoyable. You don't need to get 4k to have enjoyed the game.

"We could apply your tunneling rule to survivors too. Play a game (non KYF) where you get 5 generators to 33% before ever trying to get one gen to 66%. If you have one gen below threshold you can't work on any generator past 33% or 66%. You are allowed to get multiple generators to 33-66-99% so that you are not held up by one generator.

You have never even for a moment considered playing survivor like that. It's ridiculous that you decide the killer should play in an inefficient manner while survivors should play to complete their objective as fast as possible."

-That's where you comparison doesn't work. We're not asking killers to deliberately let survivors win, we are asking killers to respect the humans beings they are facing, and to refrein from using a cheap strategy that is, technically, a reportable offense (officially, it's not, but in the reports, you can see "abusing a gameplay flaw to get a competitive advantage", which is what tunneling is).

Tunneling is officially something that the developpers are working to remove from the game, which is entirely logical, in an asymetrical game, you HAVE to design a game mechanics that prevents the solo player to easily remove one opponent from the game, leading to a snowball situation.

Now the developpers are doing are VERY poor job at it. Litterally they've been working 6 years on it and we went back when they deleted Decisive Strike. With DS being baseline, with 5 seconds duration, it's possible we are finally back in the right direction, and considerint it's the most requested change, it's probably going to happen in the future. overall, the game is going to be more and more agressive against tunneling. If you can't adapt, you'll have to stop playing killer.

Main point is: Your pityful comparison assumes working on gens separately is the same thing as making the game miserable for one opponent.

And for the 999999th time: HAVING 3 GENS AT 33% IS LITTERALLY THE MOST OPTIMAL STRATEGY THERE IS IF YOU WANT TO ESCAPE. I don't know why you can't understand that but YES, having a lot of gens working at the same time is litterally GOOD. It's better to have gens slowly build up and popping at the same time than having one gen pop early and then let the killer snowball from there.

YES, YOU SHOULD 100% HAVE 3 GENS AT 33%. IT'S GOOD.

I wonder how long it'll take the gen to be at 0% if: Pop, Call Of Brine and Overcharge were used

But anyway... Pop was good for what the Killer needed to do to get it (chase, down and hook a Survivor)... but it lasted for 45 Seconds and that's what the first nerf dealt with

The second less intrusive nerf was to the % of progression lost (with makes sense cause they added % of progress lost to the basekit)

So Pop is still good but in terms of actual use... it's subpar when compared with the other regression perks

"About a week or two ago I saw Otz play a game on Lerys vs a SWF. He got his first chase after two gens were done. That person went down near the basement. They pretended to give otz a chase so he never left the basement and essentially he camped that person to death at the top of basement entrance. It wasn't a face camp but you can be sure it was a camp. Otz tunnels all the time when he is on a streak he doesn't want to lose."

-It's only your word though, again, never saw him camp, if you show a video where he does, I can only admit he might have done it once or twice (it happens to the best of us to get mad at someone in a game), but it's definitely not one of his habits.

Otz did a no damage run in dark Souls 2, bruh, he has the skills to get 4 kills without tunneling.

"So if the killer tunnels one person out before he loses any generators does that means he just played better? It's alright to say yes (by the way this is sarcastic)."

-It's litterally impossible not to get 4 kills when you tunnel, so using that strategy allows for a 100% guaranteed 4 kills. Not really what I'd call "playing better".

"The level of favoritism you display towards the survivor here is unreal. How about if survivors don't touch the 3 gen I want to keep for the entire game then I won't tunnel? Right - see as a survivor your natural instinct is to create the opposite of a 3 gen : what my friend calls a "Y gen"."

-Asking the killers not to cheat is "favoritism for survivors", uh? Litterally, it's exactly as if I was calling someone out for cheating and you were replying "BuT SuRvIvOrS ArE DoInG GeNs tHaTs OnLy fAiR".

Tunneling is a form of legal cheating, because it's a game design flaw that is currently being worked on and that 100% guarantees getting 4 kills.

"I hate to break it to you but the devs have said tunneling camping and slugging are valid tactics. They have literally asked on stream to stop reporting those things."

-They have absolutely never said it was valid, they said they were working on removing those strategies and that reporting them would not result in a ban, since it's their own fault for not having fixed it.

Which makes sense. I do report tunnelers and facecampers, I KNOW it can not possibly result in a ban, but it sends the message to behavior that whatever fix they're working on, it's urgent.

I think it's funny how different corporations handle different problems. While Respawn are banning tea baggers, while having built in functionalities that allow for in game bragging, you have bhvr that says it's okay to litterally ruin games on purpose.

"This set of instructions is ridiculous. But it is essentially what survivors are asking killers to do. Hook each player once. Then hook each player twice."

My set of instruction is "don't tunnel, don't specifically remove one person from the game, ignoring other survivors, abusing the DS nerf, and ensuring survivors can't possibly escape no matter how terrible you are at the game".

Your set of instruction is "survivors should go afk and just stop doing anything".

It's absolutely not the same thing, you're litterally telling me that the equivalent of the killer not ignoring all survivors but one is the same thing as survivors going afk and not working on generators at all.

"And this too is ridiculous to ask of survivors. So I start every game as if I will get 100,000$ for the win. My objective is to tunnel one person out as fast as possible while holding a 3 gen setup."

-What you don't understand is that the changes we are asking (DS baseline with 5 seconds, nerfs to killers if one survivor is killer and all others are P0, etc...) are made so that if you were to play a game and win 100k if you get at least 3 kills, then what should happen is that your most optimal strategy should be not to tunnel.

That's what behavior tried to do with the Off The Record change, for exemple.

So 33% of single gen or it's "tunneling". Ok. Let's apply same rules. You can chase 1 survivor for 33% of one gen = 30s or it's tunneling and so you need to swap target.

Oh bullshit and that is not tunneling? Well doing 33% gens is also not tunneling. You can chase single survivor for 15 minutes for all I care and I still would not call that tunneling. Same way as there is no "leave unfinished objective just so" tunneling.

Tunel was and always will be ignoring everyone and everything else in a match just to rehook person that just got out of hook. If you leave him time to hide/heal and find him again, people will not call it tunneling (if you don't drop actual more favorable chase just to get already hooked person). Your definition is flawed on so many levels.

I used to regularly pop gens at 20% so they would go down to zero to help secure a three gen. Pop can no longer do this so it lost most of its appeal. I was regularly kicking gens with Pop before the patch to make gens take 120-180 seconds longer overall. There's no way you can get that kind of value anymore with the current skill over and over and over again like you could with the old Pop.

But devs made tunneling gens bad strategy already. Going more then 1 person on each generator (the only definition of gen tunneling that can hold) already has some serious debuff - that is partially (mostly) countered by proof. Yet it's still not good idea for multiple people to work on single gen (discordance and killers like legion, bubba, armed plague, ...)

But devs didn't think such debuff would be cool on killer's side. But this might actually be the solution. Slow down killer's speed by 5% and shorten the lunge by 50% (lounge thing only so it applies also on nurse) when tunneling. To determine what is tunneling - consider if chasing just-unhooked person that did not do any conspicuous action. Maybe highlight such survivor in some not-too-visible way (e.g. dark round shadow at the center of said survivor, or something on the hud).

Yes. Thanks. This might make it equal on both sides to "tunnel" stuff.

Old Pop, Old Ruin, AND ESPECIALLY Old Undying were fine, and should’ve never been nerfed/reworked IMO. Waaay better than what we have today. As much as I hated going against the old versions of Pop & Undying, they were at least counter-able if you knew what you were doing. It was solo que that made that a nightmare. OMG i just realized something, imagine if today’s entitled ragequitting players had to deal with those 3 beasts in their hey day?? Their heads would explode from salty tears.

I honestly feel like pain res is pop without the risk lol, especially with agitation.

You're underestimating how often you can get kicks on decently progressed gens if you're keeping an eye out for it, especially if you run Pop with either Discordance or Call of Brine or Tinkerer to give you pings on gens that probably should be kicked.

The problem doesn't really come from the fact that we're saying it's not efficient.

The problem is that it is officially recognized as a problem and is being worked on, and that in the meantime, the only thing we can do as a community, in order to keep the game alive, is to avoid doing so.

I mean, litterally, if you tunnel, you 100% guarantee 4 kills. Even a trash player can easily get 4 kills against known streamers by simply tunneling.

"just like splitting on multiple gens is the most efficient way to play survivor"

-Funny how the other guy seems to be adament that splitting is inneficient haha.

But really, what's weird is how survivors working together work slower rather than faster.

Generators should take longer than 90 charges, but working together should result in a much more efficient repair speed, to make up for the fact that it is strategically inefficient to work together on a generator.