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I don't get how Finisher Moris justify basekit self-pickups
Finisher Moris don't actually make slugging any more effective or easier to do, if you down the entire team, then you're almost guaranteed to win that match. Full team slugs only really happen if the survivors majorly misplay.
Ending the game when this happens is largely a Quality of Life feature and really doesn't justify the ability to self-pickup without any perks at all.
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I guess cuz they are tired of people complaining about starstruck nurse and instead of making a change specific to the killer/situation they decided to make a sweeping change to screw over several c and d tier killers.
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The only thing I’m happy about is that it addresses slugging for the 4k. That was long overdue. Outside of that, this system needs some work. 45 seconds isn’t long enough and certain perks/items will create lose-lose scenarios for the killer and will have a ripple effect on several other mechanics.
For example, even if I were to sabo save someone right now and force the killer to drop, the killer still gets some pressure out of the fact that someone still has to stop what they’re doing and go pick that survivor up. Now they can just continue their gen uninterrupted because their teammate no longer needs their help.
I don’t think it’s impossible to make this work, but I am a bit concerned about it in its current state.
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It doesn’t justify it at all.
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It doesn't justify it, but it is likely the reason why the changes are being made. They're just more willing to force the new mechanic into the game than make sure they can have it fit more naturally, and don't care about any of the collateral damage in the process. Its 100% a direction issue, and I honestly feel bad if there's anyone on the team who has tried to warn them about any of the points people have been addressing since the moment it was announced.
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Thing is it wont even effect starstruck nurses that much. If everyone is exposed 45 seconds is plenty of time for a good Nurse, add in once you pick up Nurse can like instaly be right back on top of where you got downed to down you again.
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Slugging for the 4k is lame, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this is a terrible idea.
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Actually this doesn’t prevent slugging for the 4k, in fact the new version of the mori offerings make it so slugging for the 4k makes it more likely to get the final mori you need for those bloodpoints (since if the last survivor gets out the hatch the mori offerings give no bloodpoints.)
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Seriously, we just asked for an option to bleed ourselves out faster. Slugging is a perfectly normal and valid killer strategy at certain points of the game. Just that no one wanted to lay on the ground for up to four minutes because of some salty or toxic killer.
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They should add this mechanic in, reduce the time to w/e normal pickup time would be, but only have it kick in if more than 1 survivor is downed/incapacitated/hooked or when there are only 2 survivors in the trial.
This would prevent the killer from slugging everyone to end the game instantly as a god tier starstruck nurse, as well as preventing the "slug for 4k" gameplay that is toxic. But at the same time, it doesn't completely destroy several killers whose entire kit is designed around the idea of slugging and spreading pressure along with several perks like:
- Twins
- Oni
- Onroyo
- Hag
- Deerstalker
- Knock Out
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Yeah, adding basekit self pickups just deletes any pressure you can get from slugging, since there's really no incentive for a teammate to come pick them up.
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The self pickup should only be available if at least 2 survivors are slugged. If it goes live as it is a survivor can go down at a pallet with a teammate nearby and it's a lose-lose situation. If you slug to go for the saver the downed survivor just gets up, and if you pick up it's a free pallet save.
Also what is going to happen with killers who have powers on a limited timer? Am I supposed to use Corrupt Purge on Plague to down a single survivor every time?
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The two changes are largely unrelated. Neither one justifies the other, as they address separate issues.
Finisher mori's address the long and painstaking process of hooking one of the slugged survivors, waiting for them to try to kobe, then looking for the next one and doing the same thing, repeat two more times. Basekit Unbreakable addresses getting slugged for four minutes, for no discernable reason by a BM'ing killer.
Both are good changes, imo.
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It doesn’t prevent it, but it does make it more difficult.
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The auto-mori already addressed getting slugged for four minutes though, you can't bleed out the entire team anymore.
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Yes, it's very pog. Anything that makes the game more chill is fine by me.
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I might say it makes it take longer, it’s not necessarily that much harder to pull off.
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We don't really need basekit Unbreakable, though.
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Maybe yes, maybe no. It blows to get slugged for four minutes, so I'm fine with literally any solution to that.
I think the upcoming basekit Unbreakable is a little extreme, but adapting to it will at least be fun and interesting.
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I think another reason for this change is to slow down hooked survivors who are failing skill checks to leave a match. Killers want to be the power role/the decision-makers and for many of them that includes forcing survivors who try to die early on hook to stay in the match (via slugging) or risk a DC penalty.
Well, now those survivors are in the match and have to either contribute something or exist as a farm mechanism for the killer.
Allowing survivors to just bleed out faster or at will is the same as allowing them to die fast on hooks. Killers can’t really complain about this supposed survivor ragequit epidemic but decry BHVR’s attempts at moderating it.
Survivors won’t be punished for dying early on hooks no matter how much killers want that to be a thing. Survivors won’t receive harsher DC penalties beyond what already exists no matter how much killers want //that// to be a thing. Survivors, however, will be forced to at least remain in the match in an upright, active status after being downed so that the killer can farm some points off of them. Their teammates can farm too by healing.
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the way dev are seeing is that base-kit finisher mori's can raise kill-rates if both survivors are spotted at the end of the game since downing both survivors consecutively means that both survivor will die instantly.
what they are not seeing is that the killer is often going get 3 kills in 2 vs1 scenario's irregardless of mori.
The main problem with base-kit unbreakable is 3 man slugging becoming almost unviable. In many cases, a killer can lose all 5 generators very quickly, but is often able to squeeze a kill through tunneling and camping such that he creates 3vs1 just as end game as begun.
If the killer has like 6-8 collective hooks remaining, it is impossible for him to get 6-8 hooks if the survivor made it to end game, so the killer only option is to slug, 3 man slug. Its not exactly easy to 3 man slug because one person can always pick up the other person but if you are lucky enough to down both players consecutively, you can leave both survivors on the floor and attempt to scout the final survivor to down them. that is where unbreakable as perk really shines, it shines when you are at mist of defeat as survivor but the exit gates are opened which can change 4 kill to into 2 man escape at min, sometimes 3 man if slugging backfires though more likely 2k.
the other place that unbreakable shines is bodyblocking. Suppose that survivor A is on death hook, and Survivor B on 1 hook state and survivor C and D have not been hooked. The killer is on 1 gen. If the killer find survivor A, he will be desperate to try to tunnel survivor A out of the game because if he is successful, he can turn the game from 4vs1 to 3vs1 which opens possibility to 3m an slug where as 4m slugging is not that easy. You can throw yourself at the killer as survivor C and D when survivor A is being chased(tunneled out of the game) and there is large likelihood that the killer will slug you and will continue to chase survivor A until he eliminates survivor A out of the game. Unbreakable is good in this situation because you can throw yourself at the killer, but your teammates do not need to come and pick you up, they can stay on generator while unbreakable picks you up.
according to BVHR stats in first update, Unbreakable is not that popular of a perk because most killer do not slug every single game. there's risk vs reward to the perk making it situational. Of course if you get into these two situations of end-game 3 man slugging and bodyblocking when a survivor is on death hook and your on 0 hook, then unbreakable is really good.
The result post-update is that 3 man slugging will be non-existed, as in completely dead and body blocking survivors that are on death hook will become more common due to base-kit unbreakable. Before killer would take gamble that you do not have unbreakable because its not common perk. Post-update, every killer will pick you up if you bodyblock for death hook person, so you can now trade your hook-state for one of your team hook-states, like that survivor A who is on death hook. So more anti-tunnel mechanics put into the base game.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
Because if you don't allow survs to pick themselves up, you could just put all four of them on the ground and the game would be over. "Slugging for 4K" would take on a whole new meaning.
I don't care for slugging for 4K, and killers bleeding everyone out is even worse, but 45 seconds is too short. It should be a minute at least.
Overall, this all seems a like a lot of disruption to accommodate what is really a pretty insignificant mechanic (finishing moris) that no one really asked for.
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"you could just put all four of them on the ground and the game would be over."
That's how the game works currently, a finisher mori doesn't change that.
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But more people would play just for downs (and not hooks). Slugging would explode as a strat.
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Foresight dictates that, despite it being seen as a QoL change, killers would just go for slug builds. Honestly, neither are good changes but there has to be some give and take.
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It wouldn't really make it any more effective, though.
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idk they can keep their QoL changes if it comes bundled with Unbreakable base kit LMAO.
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It would lead to a boom of people being left on the ground rather than hooked. Is that something we want? The efficacy isn't the point, it would encourage a lot more of a behavior no one likes.
And you would also see a rise in killers trying to "speedrun" matches, just seeing how fast they can put everyone down. Which is also fairly miserable.
The basekit unbreakable at least gives a motivation to hook people.
All that said, I think this is all a whole of of upheaval to enable a new mechanic no one asked for.
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I agree, but I don't see BHVR scrapping the idea. I accept basekit UB as a byproduct of it. Best we, as a community, can do is come up with a compromise.
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If they remove struggling and saving it will be a good idea lol
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BHVR, no need to to justify making UB base kit by creating useless and dumb mechanic no one asked for.
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Because the Finishing Mori doesn't just activate if all survivors are downed. You could tunnel one survivor out, hook the next on first hook, then down one going for the save, and that leaves one more that you can just wait around for or hunt down. Hence, the UB counter option. Finishing Mori has the potential to end the game with little to no hooks. Basekit Unbreakable is purely about keeping an important aspect of the game still relevant: hooking. Plenty of killers hate having to hook a survivor 3 times for a kill, hence why things like camping are such a popular strat. Finishing Mori will see an increase in slugging if there is no counter.
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Nope, slugging is just not very healthy gameplay for the game, so not being able to slug survivors for such a long time is definitely a very good and healthy change for the game.
C and D tier killers are just generally problematic because they are too weak, but the solution to that surely isn't unhealthy gameplay such as slugging. They just need to be buffed properly in different ways.
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Its not about hating having to go for 12 hooks, its about that being an increasingly unviable outlook to have on the game. Even with slugging most of its current applications are situational and, if im honest, kinda forced. Its easy to just point at the BM bloodletters and shake your head, but when people recognize and purposely continue running into areas where there are no hooks within range due to a kill or having a sabo buddy, its a very real situation that can and is forced in the game. Most people with concerns about these kinds of issues are reasonably under the impression that BHVR will do absolutely nothing to prevent extreme cases from being abused, which is obviously going to affect higher MMRs much more than lower ones.
They just don't understand the concepts of sanity checks and synergy limitation. Hence why someone like nurse somehow gets buffed by a thing that nerfs almost the entire roster.
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Im really scared of the park of the last standing buff they will give to surv and killers.I highly doubt they will give aura reading of 8 m of something to killer and im scared of the buff to surv.
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Because without that change hooks would be entirely pointless. If downing all survivors triggers an auto-sacrifice then the prevailing strat would be to just slug everyone since it’s the lowest effort/highest reward given the new, additional win condition added to killers. That would be a pretty bad survivor experience, at least for the large population in solo queue.
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The most common response to this is a resounding "then the auto-mori isn't worth uprooting core game mechanics to force it to work."
Yes, it is accurate that without something drastic like this, the auto mori system could be abused. But the answer isn't to create another abusable situation for survivors while also removing all degrees of a borderline strategy. Slugging has a lot of variance to it, with BM bleedouts existing alongside survivors forcing lose/lose situations with it being the only way to convert those into possible pressure. A change this drastic kills both simultaneously, while also giving survivors a tool to exploit at the same time. On its average, the impact will not be as bad as many killers point out, but the potential is there and it most certainly will be abused. Thats a bad look for basekit changes centered around core gameplay mechanics, especially when they're so one sided (even though there will still be auto-mori negatives on the survivor side as well.)
And worst of all? The main contributor to slugging complaints (aside from the obvious twins) is nurse, who is still the most likely killer to be able to even use the auto-mori system in any earlier than intended capacity. Any borderline, more "situational" sluggers like oni/myers/billy/etc just get a nice fat L but with nurse it just gives her 45 second windows to snowball into an instant win.
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