Facecamping and Tunneling are not legitimate ways to play and is Toxic to the game.
So I want to start this post out by saying that killing the players is certainly a very important objective to the killer, but at a certain point when the game does not discourage, and in fact ENCOURAGES it, Facecamping and Tunneling, the Devs are essentially saying that not playing the game is a legitimate way of playing the game. I also want to say that I'm a killer main and honestly, I think I dislike playing survivor BECAUSE of the relatively high prospect of facing a facecamper/tunneler.
Now let me get one thing straight, Tunneling and Camping, sometimes even Facecamping, shouldn't be completely stopped as sometimes it is the only objective the killer has that is really productive. Like when the Gen count is low/the exit gates are powered, in which case you can't really blame a killer for camping at this point. However, facecamping and tunneling at the start of a game usually means that one survivor will not get to play the game, and another will likely soon follow. What's worse is that if a team isn't fully coordinated in attempting to assist the camped survivor (which is VERY likely in solo queue), then the Survivors are very unlikely to even escape.
There are several excuses I've heard about combatting this, but honestly I feel like the majority of them are elitist:
- Get Good? I mean sure, but you don't get good right off the bat and when you're trying to get good and a killer who is just average can just facecamp you and get more than triple the BP you do, it kinda makes you not want to play anymore are you also saying that Solo Queue SHOULD expose you to this toxic behavior? If so, then why not just remove solo queue or add VC for Survivors in-game?
- Use anti camping/tunneling perks? Ok, well this assumes that someone has the characters and has them prestiged to actually use perks like Reassurance/Decisive Strike, but that means you're down one perk and the base game is still saying it's ok to just facecamp and tunnel.
- How can you not just pop all 5 gens while 1 person is being camped? I mean i guess from a competition point of view this is a good argument, but I want to point out that 1 person just doesn't get to play the game and that the survivors overall get less blood points as they'll only be receiving Survival and Objective points since chases won't really be a thing and if you get any in boldness, that means you're near the hook that is being camped which probably means you're not doing a gen.
- Well the killer isn't getting enough pips to Stage Up so no problem! Yes, but the Survivors are probably losing Pips for their stages and being new at the game shouldn't mean your progress to Survivor grades should be hindered just on the whim of some random person who decides they don't want the Survivors to have fun.
Here are the changes I propose to combat this relatively big problem:
- Kindred should be baseline and all Survivors should be able to make use of it without requiring a Perk Slot.
- Unhooking should not have a timer, once unhooking a survivor is forced to complete the unhook. Additionally, Survivors cannot be grabbed from an unhook, but can still be interrupted specifically if they are Injured or Deeply Wounded and take a hit (no I do not mean put into the Dying state)
- If a Survivor is hooked, then the aura of the furthest Survivor that has not been hooked at all, is revealed to the killer for 10 seconds.
- If a Survivor dies on hook before any other combination of survivors have a total of 2 hooks (this means it can be another Survivor with 2 hooks as well), then all Survivors gain a 150% Blood Point bonus for the match and the killer takes a 75% Blood Point penalty for the match. Additionally, no matter how the Survivors do, they cannot lose any pips for Stages this match and the Survivor will automatically lose a pip for Killer stages this match. This does not apply if the Survivor on hook attempts to unhook themselves more than Once and/or doesn't succeed at least 3 skill checks during Struggle phase. This effect also does not apply if there are 2 or less Gens required to be completed to power doors, if doors are powered, or if doors are open.
- Each time a killer hooks a Survivor, if the Survivor has the least number of hooks or is tied for the least number of hooks amongst all Survivors, the killer gains a +25% stacking bonus to Blood Points. This bonus should also affect the killer's points towards gaining Killer Stages as this type of behavior should be rewarded.
- If a killer remains within 15 feet of a specific Hooked Survivor (timer resets if the survivor is unhooked then hooked again and each hooked Survivor should have their own timer) for a total of 30 seconds, the killer gains a stacking -25% Blood Point penalty and the hooked survivor gains a stacking +25% Blood Point bonus. Survivors that gain this bonus should then be immune to losing a Survivor Stage pip for the match. A killer that takes this penalty 3 or more times in a match should automatically lose a Killer Stage pip for the match. If the killer is in chase for at least 5 seconds, this timer ceases to count down for all hooked survivors until the chase ends and the time continues to be paused for 5 seconds after the chase ends, though if the chase resumes or a new chase is started during this 5 second interval, the timer continues to be paused. This effect also does not apply if there are 2 or less Gens required to be completed to power doors, if doors are powered, or if doors are open.
Personally I believe that these are all very fair changes as the majority of them do not change the game too much. The aura reading simply makes it so newer players and players not on comms just have a bit of that edge and encourages healthy behavior from survivors (making it easier to unhook and know when to unhook). On the killer side, it assists with specifically not tunneling, but not much else and has no effect once each survivor has been hooked at least once. The majority of my suggestions are mainly aimed at Bloodpoint gain and Stages because honestly that is the most rewarding part of the game when doing well and honestly I just hate the fact that a killer who does minimal work by facecamping can double or triple the number of blood points of survivors who actually play the game well and even escape.
Comments
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I'll add that while tunneling is an "efficient" way to get 4 kills (and by efficient I mean a baby killer can easily get 4 kills by tunneling 4 experienced survivors), it is often compared to "survivors playing in an efficient way".
The main problem is that the killer's objective is to kill survivors, but the survivor's objectives aren't to kill the killer.
The point of balancing should be that both sides have fair chances to win, and fair chances to actually play the game. If you're being tunneled, you don't get to play the game really. In order for the game to stay healthy, tunneling need to be a sub optimal way to play. When killer queues will take 30 minutes and eventually no one will want to play the game, tunnelers will have all the opportunity to defend tunneling as a viable strategy, as the servers will be offline anyways and no one will care anymore.
I think your suggestions are too much based on bloodpoints, but I think many players would rather get 4 kills than lots of bloodpoints.
Personally, I would suggest those changes:
- Since Kindred has been confirmed not to be given baseline ever to survivors, they should add icons next to survivors. (I think behavior mentionned that a while ago but I'm not sure if it's officially being worked on). icons should show if survivors are being chased, working on generators, being close to a hooked survivor, healing, or being healed. They shouldn't know the position of other survivors, but they should have a good idea of what's going on.
- Remove unhook grabs, and reduce the huge delay that happens after an unhook, when both survivors can't move for a few seconds. I feel like unhook speed is a useless mechanic exactly because it doesn't reduce that anyway.
- Camping: Give survivors a generator repair speed bonus after X seconds of the killer staying close to the save. That speed should increase with time, and decrease with distance. The maximum value should be high enough to represent a major threat, and the distance shouldn't be too high. Ideally, this should be cancelled if the killer is in a chase. (to avoid survivors looping near the hoog and abusing reassurance)
- Tunneling: Give survivors a generator repair speed when a survivor is killed, based on their hook stage. Not sure about the values, but if a survivor is deleted while all others have never been hooked, the repair speed should be heavily increased (50 or even 100%)
- Decisive strike should be baseline, and/or the perk should be a major threat. Again, lots of possibilities here. Maybe a 3 second baseline and 6 with the perk. Maybe a 2 seconds baseline? Maybe nothing baseline but 6/7 seconds with the perk? Overall, a killer committing to tunnel should be punished.
Overall, let's make tunneling never a viable option.
IF you're gonna say that those changes would make killers too difficult, then fine, let's work from there and buff killers if needed. I'm all for killer being more viable, I loved last patch in that regard. But it shouldn't mean that survivors have a terrible time playing.
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Aura reading is quite strong. I would opt for something like a killer instinct, but slower (survivors "ping" there position once every let's say 3-5s). It will still notify of general position. But it will not provide detailed information (something even regular SWF don't have as there exists an information loss when speaking).
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1. Baseline kindred would have been better than basekit BT for sure. But since it'd have to be a perk, the killer ahra would be added on the perk probably.
2. Removing grabs is terrible. You should be able to punish a surv if they attempt to unhook in front of you without trading a hook.
3. Killer doesn't need to see the survivor.
4. That's just silly.
5. No actual comment.
6. That's also pretty silly.
Facecamping is boring, but shouldn't impose any penalty or reward.
Tunnelling should be used very specifically. The only real kind of tunnelling is if the killer is specifically targeting someone and not just punishing a bad unhook (or simply re-targeting them because they can).
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The only time I actually camp is when Im faced with a sweaty swf bully squad who thows me in a heavily survivor sided map. And I get bodied by those guys sometimes because well if its obvious by my avatar, I play Trickster. So not someone who is even meant to camp. When gens fly and people click and tbag me. You bet Im gonna camp the fck out of that toxic survivor and hit them on hook. If they make me miserable, I make them.
Otherwise, camping to me is useless and I want to make a fun game for both survivor and killer, the best matches after all are those that are thrilling and close where the game can go any way. Its never fun if one side stomps the other. Thats why I dont want to play the meta killers like Nurse or Blight or even a happy camper like Bubba
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Ngl your ideas to counter face camping sound not good. Why should survivors be rewarded for not timing their save? Hooking someone who hasn't been hooked is a very bad strategy for the killer, and I don't mean to tunnel I mean it's not good to prioritize someone who hasn't been hooked. Forcing hook states is a survivor strategy because the killer needs that pressure. Spreading the hooks out evenly shouldn't be encouraged on the killer's side.
My best suggestion is if a survivor is hooked for a certain amount of time and they die on that hook that's clearly not their fault and their grade progress should be paused. This means people who purposely die on hook still lose pips but also survivors aren't punished for being camped or having a bad team. It's also encourages the camped survivor to stay on the hook and do skill checks so their team can do gens which is the best way to counter camping.
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I had competive blight tunneling my teammate in less than 2 minutes in game at 5 gens. We tried help but he ignored us gave him free downs and tunneled wiggled out but he still went after him. After that he hard tunneled me out. There were 3 cakes in the game so it really sucked he has to play most scummy way possible. He wanted easy win at 5 gens I get it but he could done it more fair way when there were so many cakes. Well maybe there should be game mode survivors killing killer so we could get revenge.
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trickster is arguably best camper in whole game. Especially in basement. Being able to take 4-5 health states before whole squad get's out of basement is something only bubba can do (but he can still crash or overheat with his M2). And if you get main event in said basement during rescue attempt... Well. GG!
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So the reason why my suggestion is based off of BP and Stages is because I don't think a change in gameplay is necessary if the devs want to keep it as is for more competitive play. Certainly I do personally believe that mechanically speaking there should be more of a deterrent for Facecamping and Tunneling, but this would probably require a larger rebalance which would probably include some manner of inherent Gen slowdown other than just kicking atm.
While I understand the concern of aura reading, honestly I feel as though having Kindred baseline will not be broken at all considering things like Fearmonger is a pretty often used perk for killers and that even with Kindred, while the aura reading is definitely nice, sometimes Survivors will still just do Gens despite seeing that everyone else is also on a Gen. This is definitely to weed out a camping killer, but also to just give a bit of information so Survivors can rescue off hook proficiently.
Removing grabs from Hook saving is ABSOLUTELY not terrible. It sort of feels like you haven't been in a Hook Standoff. To clarify, a Hook Standoff is when a Healthy Survivor and a Killer are both in front of a Hooked Survivor with the Killer staring at the Survivor while the Survivor is staring at the Hooked Survivor and the Survivor is essentially Unhooking and Canceling in an attempt to trick the Killer into attacking so that the Healthy Survivor can trade on hook. Sorry, but this is extremely stupid "gameplay". Hatch Standoffs were stupid and so are Hook Stabndoffs.
I don't believe the suggestions are silly at all. They're meant to incentivize y'know... playing the game as opposed to doing minimal work? Facecamping is boring and it really isn't playing the game, especially in the early game (which is why I suggest the possible penalties be removed in the late game).
So when it comes to sweaty swf bully squads, I don't often feel the need to camp them, even when they're being toxic and when I do, then the fixes I suggest already address the issue. If a bully squad is just about trying to bully the killer, that's honestly fine with me when I play killer because it means Gens aren't being done and all I have to do is switch up how I tackle the current situation. If they're popping gens like crazy, well then the penalties are removed towards late game and usually that's when I'd have to resort to camping (and when Camping really become the only objective for Killer anyways).
So it feels like your commentary is very much so based on competitive play as opposed to actually playing the game. Certainly, Tunneling is definitely the better choice for the killer as removing opposing players means the Killer has less of an opposing force to deal with, but at what point should the killer stop doing something because it's not "viable"? And what about the Survivor side of things? Are you saying it's healthy for the game for killers to just Facecamp and Tunnel each of their games? Sure they might not get a 4k, but getting 1-2k usually means they'll get as much if not more BP than the Survivors for doing minimal work. As for viability, should killers all run meta perks and only play Nurse, Blight, and Spirit then? Sorry, but not being "viable" is not a good excuse for basically wasting someone else's time.
My suggestions already address Stage progression, but while this addresses the stage progression problem, it doesn't address the fact that if a Killer has facecamped this Survivor until dead, this Survivor who probably hasn't done anything wrong just didn't get to play the game because the Killer isn't good enough to actually play the game. Sorry, but I'm thinking about the health of the game as a whole. Not to mention, why does the number of kills for a killer before endgame have to be the standard to which a Killer "wins" the game? There are competitive groups out there that determine winning via the number of total hooks and honestly I feel that's a better (though not perfect) standard than kills.
Honestly the biggest problem I want to address is really the feeling that your time has been wasted in a game. Getting maybe 5k BP for a game and watching the endgame screen as the killer gets 15-25k BP for facecamping is the most disheartening thing ever and is extremely toxic to the health of the game. Honesty if BHVR is wondering why turnover rate of players in DbD is so high, it's because of Hackers and because of this. It's also probably why there's almost always more Killers than Survivors most of the time. As Killer you don't need to deal with Facecamping and Tunneling, in fact you can do it yourself and get more blood points than if you played survivor so....
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2- The abuse cases of (face)camping are far more common than the unsafe unhook punishment being necessary. A hook trade is already a feature of hitting someone mid rescue, as it stops the progress/you are animation locked in the end of unhook. This just prevents an extra down without the rescue.
3- It is an attempt to incentivize the Killer to leave hook. Plus free intel is free intel.
4- A fair punishment for BM behavior isn't silly. The reward may be excessive however. Sidenote I would implement a random number of crouches within the exit gate blocks the gates for 30s for the individual. Punishing BM is fine.
6- It was actually fairly well thought out to only punish facecamping without punishing a Killer who is dragged near the hook by a Survivor in chase. Punishing the bad behavior is always good imo.
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Gencampign and Rushing are not legitimate ways to play and toxic to the game.
Yeah no I don't agree with either statement. Doing the objective is doing the objective.
It's not toxic to try and win the game.
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If they r so ineffective then why do people do it in comp as a viable stratergy?
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So i know you think you're making a valid point by likening these things, but you're really not for a number of reasons. The first and foremost reason is that a Killer will eventually find and chase at least 1 Survivor throughout the course of the game and whether or not that Survivor goes down, the Killer is playing throughout the game. Technically speaking, the Killer is still "playing" while Facecamping and/or Tunneling. On the other hand, a Survivor that gets Tunneled out or Facecamped is in fact NOT playing anymore and their time has just been wasted for something they cannot control.
On the subject of control, even if a full Survivor team is Genrushing/Gencamping the killer in fact has many options at their disposal. The first is to tighten their patrol path to easy to patrol Gens and keeping those from popping. There are several games as Killer where I've won because the Survivors decided they would do all the outer gens and leave the 3 easiest to patrol Gens for the end. There are also several games as Survivor where we're on 2 Gens and I 99 one of the easier Gens so that I can then finish one of the harder gens then pop it, but some other Survivor comes along and pops the 99'd gen and now the Killer has an easy time defending every one of the last 3 Gens at once.
Also, what do you define as "winning" the game? 4 Kills? I mean after all can you call it a win if any ONE of your opponents leaves? In which case we should also remove Hatch because it's like catchup in a racing game, the Survivors are at a Disadvantage, but now suddenly they have an easy way to clutch the game! 3 Kills? Well that's a weird arbitrary number, how come it's a win when there are 4 Survivors total and you only got 3 of them? Shouldn't the Killer then be punished for letting any one of them live? Not to mention, the Survivors are in Co-Op and everything each Survivor does affects the whole team so all Survivors should benefit if ANY survivor survives, 'cause then the Survivors win! But in the end, if you believe 4k or 3k means you win, this doesn't affect any of that really. All it does is affect Blood Points and Stage progressions, so you can Tunnel and Camp all you want, you'll just get reduced BP and Stage Progression.
I can tell you haven't read the post at all. The point made here is that Killers who do minimal work (Facecamping and Tunneling from the beginning of the game) should not be rewarded for doing so. Is it effective? Questionably, depending on the Survivors you're facing, but my post isn't really about whether or not it's effective. It's about actually letting Survivors have fun and incentivizing it/compensating players who get Facecamped/Tunneled early on for no reason. Sorry but it's pretty ridiculous when a Wraith hunts down a random Steve for the entirety of the game despite all other players trying to body block even while injured for said Steve and the Wraith just ignores the other players they've downed for... viability I guess?
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If the killer wants to tunnel that steve they r going to do it, the best you can do is make them throw the match to do it.
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Throw the match? what do you mean? Do survivors get a multiplier bonus for how many Survivors make it out? No. Does the Steve also get to "win" if the Survivors "win the match"? I'm sorry, but it seems like you're believing I'm talking about competitive play with some sort of cash payout for the winning team, but I'm just talking about playing the game. The reason Tunneling is toxic is because that Steve is not going to get to play and is not getting much BP out of the game and is probably losing a Pip for Survivor Stages.
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If a killer wants to tunnel, regardless of comp or not they are going to do it period. The best that can be done is to make them throw the match to do it (lose the match is what throw means fyi).
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What they mean is making camping and tunnelling more costly for the killer.
If camping/tunnelling results in a scenario where the killer can only secure one or two kills, ergo not 'win', they'll be less inclined to do it in general.
The fact that the one survivor getting tunnelled isn't having a good time is a moot point when the incidence rate of tunnelling in general decreases as a result.
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Oh no, don't worry I caught that. But let's be real, especially in Solo Queue, you don't control the actions of your fellow Survivors. Sure you can stay on Gen, but you'll complete maybe 1 by the time the Survivor dies on hook with 1, maybe 2 teammates camping around the killer, hoping they leave. Killers who tend to Facecamp/Tunnel early game aren't going to be discouraged to doing it just because Gens pop, in fact many do it knowing they will, but don't care because they're still getting an equal number of blood points if not more than the Survivors.
Sorry, my point isn't that one survivor getting tunneled isn't having a good time. In fact it sort of feels like the arguments thrown so far are under the assumption that my argument is that Tunneling/Camping should just be completely eliminated when my argument is that everyone should be incentivized to let everyone just play the game. Camping/Tunneling are sometimes all the killer can do when up against a very good team, but that means Gens should be getting done. If Gens aren't being done, well then the killer will eventually "win" now won't they?
Furthermore, if we're talking objectives and gameplay, hook rescues ARE a Survivor objective. Sure you can call it a side objective, but having less Survivors makes pressuring the Killer significantly harder. Not to mention, gaining Survivor Stage Pips does rely a decent amount on hook rescues. Not only that, but ALL survivors literally get a penalty to their Stage Point gain whenever a Survivor is hooked, which is recovered when the survivor is unhooked. It simply isn't fair that killers can affect Survivors this much when doing minimal work.
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Sorry, but I don't think you got what I was trying to communicate. For the Tunneled player, how is it fair that their performance is now considered terrible just on the whim of the killer? Considering Stage progression and Blood Points?
On the other hand, a killer who Facecamps and Tunnels will very likely at least maintain Stage Progression and gain a moderate amount of Blood Points. In what manner is this considered throwing the match? Seems like Killers pretty much have a win-draw scenario here whereas Survivor pretty much have a lose-lose scenario. Again, Survivors won't be gaining boldness BP/Stage Progression due to lack of chases, same with Altruism considering the likely lack of heals/unhooks.
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I think Decisive Strike getting nerfed to 3 seconds really increased tunneling, survivors have a 2 second drop animation and can't make much distance or run to safety before a tunneling killer recovers from that 3 second stun.
I was okay with all the previous nerfs and even Decisive Strike being deactivated after the gates are open but I'm not happy with it being only a 3 second stun now. I don't use Decisive Strike as a survivor anymore but when I play killer, I have a high chance of downing the survivor who just used DS on me again.
I can tell BEhaviour wants killers to be stronger now but the game shouldn't reward tunneling and camping killers.
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That's more of the point awarding system not being good than a camping/tunnelling issue. If for example the killer does not camp and tunnel but is not good at the game so he does not delay the game enough or get in enough good chases and hooks then survs get screwed in another way since as far as the game is concerned they did not do anything.
Typically turbo tunnelling at the wrong time will result in a loss since your only pressuring one guy and if it goes wrong you will in most cases lose. So its very easy to throw the game to tunnel or camp especially if you dont get an early down.
Even if people gained 0 points for camping, killers would still do it to secure their one kill or because they just hate that one guy. So making even a perfect point awarding system would still not stop a killer from doing it if they want to.
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Cool, this isn't meant to stop all camping/turbo tunneling. It's meant to discourage it and to compensate a survivors whose time is wasted when someone does.
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Camping and Tunneling do have a place in this game (I say this in agreeance with you)
But Camping and Tunneling at 5 Gens isn't good for the game
Also There isn't much the Devs can do (cause most of what you put they can't code into the game)
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It's legit and not toxic but surely a problem for the game
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Being on hook is part of the intended core survivor gameplay loop, just because you don't like that aspect it doesn't mean you're not playing the game while its happening. Especially if we're talking about "technically". You can look around, scout out the map, relay info if you have the ability, use hook perks ect. If you don't like it don't que up. If you want 100% uptime during the match play killer.
Part of a team based game, if you want your teammates to do a certain thing each time get a SWF.
Doesn't matter what I define as winning. The game defines winning as killing survivors, with a 2k being a draw so anything above that is a win. Camping and tunneling help you get kills, therefore they help you win.
So I know you think you're making a valid point, but you're really not.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Relay info? like if Kindred was a global ability? Or do you mean like Voice Chat which isn't a part of the base game? Again, are you saying that Solo Queue should just be removed? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying and that's a pretty surefire way to kill the game. Or are you saying that people should just play killer if they don't want to be facecamped and tunneled from the beginning of a game? Because that would slow down queue time for killers quite a lot. I don't believe i ever said I want 100% uptime during a match as Survivor or that being on hook isn't part of the gameplay loop. But what I am saying is that maybe the game should do more to de-incentivize behaviors that put players off from the game.
And where does the game define 2k as a draw? Or even that killing survivors is winning? Last I checked, if you somehow knocked out all 4 survivors within the first 5 minutes of the game and sacrificed them all, you'd get a "The Entity Hungers" as a killer and probably lose Killer Stage progress for it. Maybe you can point out where the game officially defines winning?
Sounds like I'm suggesting ways to decrease volatility in the game and make it more inviting for new and old players alike, leaving the actual mechanics alone, but just adding incentive for healthy behaviors and de-incentivizing toxic behaviors. Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?
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"relay info if you have the ability"
"if you have the ability"
Comms aren't part of the basegame, but you're still able to use them and they're widely used. Its silly to act like its not a major part of the SWF vs Solo gap and affects the game.
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"where does the game define 2k as a draw"
The devs did when they talked about MMR. The "entity displeased" is for grades, which is just for monthly rewards.
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"Meanwhile you're here insisting that only competitive play should exist? If you can't play Survivor well, don't even try until you get good? Something along those lines?"
I didn't say that at all. I said if you personally don't like it, go get a team. Otherwise you have to deal with random teammates because they're random.
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Oh I see, so you're saying that an issue that pushes players away from the game should just... continue unaddressed? I mean you're saying that joining a full team will solve everything, but if a player gets singled out and Facecamped/Tunneled at 5 Gens, it seems like that problem is still a problem. Especially if we're dealing with a Facecamping Bubba.
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You really like putting word in peoples mouth to try and twist their meaning huh?
No I didn't say any of that. My original comment just said trying to win isn't toxic with an example to compare.
Killing survivors is the win condition. The most efficient way to do that currently is tunneling. Camping preys on altruism to do the same. Trying to win isn't toxic, simple as that.
Saying you want to change something because it's unfun is different from calling it "toxic and not a valid way to play the game".
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I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to show you what you are implying by what you are saying.
Sorry, but just because something can be part of the win condition doesn't mean that it isn't toxic and unhealthy for the game and is a completely invalid argument considering that penalties and rules can be adjusted.
For example, Slugging is currently also a very effective strategy for killer, especially if they want a 4 kill and don't want hatch to spawn, the killer can just not hook and then take their time finding the last survivor, which they usually do before all other survivors die. BHVR's most recent update has stated that they're looking to put a stop to slugging by allowing all survivors to eventually fully recover. So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic? I mean eventually slugged survivors will die, so it clearly isn't toxic to slug down an entire Survivor team and leave them to bleed out on the floor because as killer you are fulfilling the win conditions. BHVR is also looking to implement a "Final Mori" system so killers can't just slug the entire team like this.
Again, I'm pointing out an issue with the game and you're trying to brush it off and leave it unaddressed for... whatever reason?
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I disagree, you're putting words in my mouth.
They're not changing it because its toxic. They don't do changes because they're toxic otherwise t-bagging and waiting at the gate would be disabled/punished.
I never brushed off your entire suggestion, I just pointed out that these things aren't toxic or not valid as put in your title.
Again, unfun and toxic are 2 different things.
You're taking offense to something I never said.
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I like a lot of these changes but this seems needlessly complex? I'd just remove hook grabs on healthy survivors and have basekit kindred "kick in" after the killer has been within' 20m of the hooked survivor for more than 15 seconds (with these 15 seconds counting back down after the killer leaves at the same rate, and back up if they enter it again) remaining for 5 seconds after the killer leaves the radius.
Maybe a few other changes could be made where if a killer stays within hooked survivors for WAY to long and often all survivors get a diet basekit boil over until the end of the match and this would be combined with basekit breakdown where maybe if a killer was within' a 20m radius of a hooked survivor for more than 30 seconds that survivors hook is now weakened and will break on unhook even if the killer leaves the radius for the rest of their time on hook.
And yeah getting camped/tunneled out of a game should somehow always at least grant a safety pip because that can happen to someone of any skill level really. (I know pips don't count towards MMR anymore it just sucks to lose one just because the killer didn't like the way you looked at him)
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Waiting outside gate WAS punished, they implemented the end game collapse for it? As for t-bagging, it doesn't really affect gameplay now does it? Not to mention, a killer can always do something about t-bagging, putting a survivor into the dying state, causing them to be knocked out of the gates or hooking them afterwards, is something they definitely have control of.
I never said they did it because it was toxic. But they are implementing a change to the base game because of problems players have experienced and expressed that deal with gameplay and enjoyment of the game. I don't really see the difference between that and the topic of this thread which is early game camping/tunneling being a problem for the overall health of the game.
I'm not taking offense, but brushing off the main subject IS what you're doing. Your argument this entire time has essentially just been "Well, it's a way of accomplishing the objective, so it's fine." Like it's self-explanatory. Meanwhile I've been pushing the subject of respecting players' time by making it worth their time to Queue in. If I recall correctly, your rebuttal to that was "then just don't queue in." Currently I've brought up an example that directly addresses the whole "Well it's accomplishing the objective" argument you have and you seem to be trying to deflect the subject to semantics. How else should I take it, other than you're just trying to be contradictory?
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So the reason my suggestions especially deal with Stage Progression and Blood Points is because it feels like that's the biggest incentive for most killers who do it from the start of a game. It's also meant to essentially compensate the wasted time of a Survivor that was Tunneled/Facecamped out of the game by essentially making the Killer pay for it. It literally just feels bad when you actually do decently and loop a killer for a decent chunk of time, just to be caught and hooked, then facecamped to death and you get 5k BP whereas the killer is getting 15-25k BP.
I've definitely gotten camped out towards endgame before, but while I might initially be unhappy at the circumstances, I usually come to the realization that doors are powered and the killer has nothing else they can do. Not to mention, in these circumstances, I've already earned enough points to gain a Pip or maintain my Pips.
Your suggestions are definitely good as well! I'd honestly love to see a much bigger rework to help combat the problems of DbD, but my suggestions mainly focused on the rewards for the Match as opposed to the loop of the match itself because game balance is weird when taking into account the competitive scene vs the SWF scene vs the Solo Queue scene. But honestly there are tons of things I'd like to see like the removal of 99ing the doors or Hex: No One Escape Death being either destroyed or moved if a survivor is hooked within 20m of it (once had a huntress hook me with the NOED totem right next to me and then camped both, had to myself on hook to discourage the remaining 2 Survivors from coming for rescue.)
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EGC was to stop holding the game hostage not waiting at the gate. T-bagging is still here. Hook hitting is still here. Notification spamming is still here.
"As for t-bagging, it doesn't really affect gameplay now does it?"
Exactly, that's why its toxic. There's little to no benefit, its just to grief other players.
"So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic?"
"I never said they did it because it was toxic"
Yeah you did. With sarcasm, but you did.
Define "fine".
its not toxic, I never said it wouldn't be better if it were gone in a non-harmful way.
That's been my main argument/point, its not toxic or "not legitimate". My post was "It's not toxic to try and win the game." That's my point. It's a valid strategy. Survivors don't find it fun. Alright but that's different.
You're the one who took it off topic and started talking about teammates and whatnot. Again, you're arguing against a point/stance I never expressed or brought up. You assume way too much and get carried away with it.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
I don't see how in the context those separate quotes were taken from you somehow got that what I meant is that they wouldn't change things unless it was toxic? For someone who allegedly dislikes people putting words in their mouth and twisting their words, you honestly as the worst perpetrator of it. When I said "So how come they're doing this if trying to win isn't toxic?" I was questioning your main point/argument, you know the one I allegedly took off topic? "It's not toxic to try and win the game."? I was pointing out that yes, this aspect of "winning" IS toxic. So just because it's an objective towards winning doesn't automatically waive the fact that something is toxic.
I honestly fail to understand where you somehow derived what I've said to you as "They wouldn't change it if it wasn't toxic." Though I am certain a decent portion of the reason for the change includes toxicity, like wasting all the Survivors' time by just letting them all bleed out on the ground rather than hooking them. Not to mention, player enjoyability of the game is pretty important for the health of a game.
I'm sorry, but if you're really going to now say that the only reason you posted is semantics, I sort of wonder why you posted in the first place? Like if literally your only point was that you believed I was using the term "toxic" incorrectly, which is what it sounds like you're trying to say, then honestly I feel like the misunderstanding is on you and it also means that you already missed the whole point of the thread in the first place?
Considering the context of your post in this thread? I don't think I can really be blamed for the specific assumptions I made? Not to mention, I have been addressing your point of "It's not toxic to try and win the game." It also feels like you're contradicting yourself because provoking the Killer to chase you is very much so a legitimate Survivor strategy and it doesn't force the Killer into a situation where they cannot play the game. So now you're contradicting yourself by bringing up t-bagging, notification spamming, and hook hitting (which is really just a part of tunneling).
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Survivors tunnel generators and break the killer's three gen setup so the killer in turn is forced to tunnel out survivors.
Remove tunneling from both sides or there will be a problem.
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Oh ok, thats fair I hope someday they fix the emblem system to accommodate it somehow
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this tunneling meme is starting to become funny xD especially making up definition of something that does not exist
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Survivors want to remove generators from the game without ever being hooked.
It is hypocritical behavior to want the other side to play in a way that maximizes your fun when you don't consider their fun at all.
Tunneling out generators or survivors is efficient play.
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You're the one with the misunderstanding, that's what I've been saying. Your title is part of your post, so its fair game to criticize. You read what I said and assumed that I was brushing off your entire argument and suggestions when the only thing I brought up was the toxic portion. That's on you buddy.
You took "hey this isn't toxic" and turned it into "wow you're disagreeing with my entire idea and saying this is perfectly fine to leave in the game as is".
Anything after that I was just responding to what you were saying.
The only way for your quote not to mean that, that means you are actually asking why they would change it if it wasn't toxic. This is counterproductive to your point as you're trying to argue it is. So either you're saying that they wouldn't if it wasn't toxic or you're working against your own argument.
I thought you would be smart enough to not work against your argument, so I guess thinking that was on me if you're saying that's what happened. Unless you can give me another reason why that question was included. As far as I see, it was either sarcastic or counterproductive to your argument.
At this point, in my opinion, it looks like you're being disingenuous to avoid any admission of fault on your side, or you just like to argue and be problematic, or you're being overly sensitive and taking any criticism as an attack against your entire post..
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This would definitely be a great argument if I was indeed arguing for Camping/Tunneling to be completely removed from the game, but I'm not. Even the changes I suggested state that the penalties and whatnot for doing so should be removed once there are 2 or less Gens left to be done. This is specifically to counter early game Facecampers/Tunnelers who do so because they can't earn bloodpoint or "win" as killers otherwise.
So actually the reason for not wanting to be hooked also deals with the Emblem system because the only way to get the Survival Iridescent Emblem is to just not be hooked. And honestly, I think that should be changed because it discourages players from taking protection hits and trading on hook for one another.
Sorry, but if one side's sense of fun is not wanting the other side to have fun (Early game Facecamping/Tunneling) then I don't believe that view of fun is valid. Again all changes I suggested are to address Killer who jump into a game, grab a Survivor, then Facecamp them or Tunnel them out, usually before even 1 or 2 Gens are done.
Another thing is that Survivors don't always "Tunnel" out or Rush Generators. And if they do, they're usually good enough that these changes already accommodate the fact that late game will be reach relatively quickly. Now if you're arguing that Gens are done too quickly, honestly I don't often find it to be a problem when I play killer at all MOST of the time, but when it's clear a group is in a SWF, that changes sometime. But In those cases, when I finish a chase and 3 Gens are done at once, that's the late game and the penalties imposed by the suggested changes would stop. Though I do believe that there should be more built-in gen slow down so that killers don't have to bring at least 1 Gen slowdown perk if they want to be as efficient as possible in playing.
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Well I'm sorry if that really was the entire point of your post and yes, you can certainly criticize that specific part. Though I have been making valid arguments that trying to win can indeed be toxic that you are continuing to brush aside to fit your own agenda. But honestly, in a suggestion forum if your main concern is just semantics, it seems pretty bigoted of you to post just for that. And I'm honestly not sure if you're trying to backtrack to get a one up or if you really are that bigoted.
Again, you might as well have posted "Well it's not" because it would've implied the same thing. Failure in communication includes all sides of the equation. Did I assume what you were saying? Yes. But I was also assuming you'd actually stay on topic. You CAN criticize the title's semantics, but the topic was a manner in which to fix early game facemping/tunneling. Again, this just makes you a bigot.
I like how you're working against your own argument, again that "Trying to win isn't toxic" and mentioning things like t-bagging and notification spamming which can be used to attempt to provoke the killer, but now you're somehow also now accusing me of arguing against my own points? Which I don't see how I would be? They're fixing these issues because it's Toxic in a manner that adversely affects gameplay and people's enjoyment of the game rather than being Toxic just because it's bad manners if you need it fully explained to you. And no, I never said they're fixing it JUST because it's toxic. Also I'm again pointing out that aspects of winning can certainly be toxic, which is what it seems your argument is about. Sorry I assumed you'd be smart enough to glean that from context.
I'm not being disingenuous at all, my line of logic has stayed constant. Sadly you're the one who is trying to pick and choose specific phrases, taking them out of context, twisting them to accommodate your argument, but also concurrently accusing others of doing the same when they're really not. Last I checked I did address the fact that I may have misunderstood your first post considering the context, but again I've pointed out how some aspects of attempting to win CAN be toxic. And again if you simply don't like the manner in which I've been using the word "toxic," then you absolutely are off topic as this discussion was never meant to be an argument on the definition of "toxic."
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Now saying something isn't toxic makes someone a bigot? Yikes. I guess you're also a bigot since you called it toxic.
Bigot: "a bigoted person
especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)"
I don't think that applies here just because you labeled something as toxic and I disagreed. Although you do like to try and use ad hominin attacks to try and discredit others it seems.
Again, your title is part of your post, its perfectly on point to discuss it on a discussion and feedback forum. You don't get to just chop off a piece of your post and say "that doesn't count, you can't talk about it". Like, why did you include it on your post in a discussion forum if you didn't want it to be open to discussion?
Your muddled, overly defensive, assumption filled, long winded post aren't proving much of anything as, again, you were mainly arguing against a stance I never had. If you didn't assume so much and weren't so defensive maybe we could've have an actual concise focused conversation.
You can be toxic and also try to win sure, but the act of trying to win itself isn't toxic inherently. Therefore, trying to use tunneling and camping to win isn't toxic unless you are purposely malicious while doing so.
Also again, just because it's unfun or you don't like it doesn't make it toxic. You don't seem to be separating the 2.
If your personal understanding of toxic is flawed and you think that someone just trying to win is toxic, then there's not much more to say. You're speaking from a flawed foundation.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
honestly at this point just change your title to "purposed solution to camping and tunneling" or something, rather than using it as an excuse to say something but then brush off anyone who disagrees because "that's not the post" even though it is part of it.
Your title can still be a statement.
I'm not the only one whose brought it up. If you don't want to discuss it don't include it in your post, title or otherwise.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
-"Sorry, but if one side's sense of fun is not wanting the other side to have fun (Early game Facecamping/Tunneling) then I don't believe that view of fun is valid"
I don't tunnel people so they are not having fun. I tunnel people out because when I play frame perfect loopers on survivor sided maps I usually lose 2-3 gens in the first chase. Before anyone says : that's a skill issue be aware it happens to all the big name streamers when they face a good team on a strong map with a non nurse/blight killer.
You need to realize that having gens which are almost impossible to defend via coordination from voice coms makes the game extremely unpleasant as killer. Bully squads are probably part of the reason killers learn to "play hard." Once you get stomped by one one time for playing nice - most people I know immediately don't play nice ever again.
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https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigot
noun
a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Sorry at this point it's pretty clear you're just here as a troll for attention and there's really no intelligent or productive conversation to be had with you. You first take my words completely out of context and twist them to fit your means and get angry at me when I take your words in context and use them against you, then you accuse me of ad hominin right after you do so, "I thought you would be smart enough to not work against your argument".
I can't really spell it out further for you than the fact that I've been addressing each of your points and providing both a explanation and evidence each time and you've just been saying whatever you can to not be in the wrong. It's honestly a better use of my time to have a conversation with a brick wall, including when you've gone off topic and are attempting to say you're just arguing semantics when it feels more like a smokescreen than anything else. I've literally already directly addressed that "Trying to win is not toxic" is absolutely incorrect. In fact, you've already provided counter arguments to yourself by saying that t-bagging and notification spamming is toxic, considering that literally just trying to overload the killer with information or provoking them is (a toxic) strategy that can be employed to win on the Survivors' side.
If you really wanted to argue just semantics and the definition of "toxic" how come you haven't actually provided a definition you're using to actually further an argument? It's pretty clear you're just here to be contradictory and to try and gaslight people so I'm just going to do us both a favor, save my time and energy, and just stop attempting to actually have a productive conversation with you.
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So I'm a Killer main and I'm honestly not going to argue against most of your points because they're valid. But I believe my suggestions accommodate for the situations you have trouble with and, again my point isn't just that Camping and Tunneling should be 100% be eliminated from the game or even be punished if it was to be done at any and all point in the game.
But I do want to bring up that it's a tough balance between SWFs of varying skill levels vs Solo Queue and these changes are meant to just improve quality of life for all groups of players. In fact, they're sort of oriented towards assisting newer players and Solo Queue since those tend to perform less well than SWFs, much less competitive SWFs.
The biggest points of my post are that if you're literally just tunneling out one player of the game from the beginning (hence, 1 player dying before at there are a total of at least 2 other hooks on any combination of players which can be just 1 other player) and just ignoring all other players (here's an example of both the kind of tunneling and facecamping I'm referring to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7FfYFnRqJQ&t=1070s), you should be penalized for it.
In your case, if 3 gens pop in your first chase, then I absolutely do believe you should start to do a bit of camping/tunneling to get the edge in the game and again, my suggestions accommodate for this. At 2 Gens or less, the penalties for Camping/Tunneling should deactivate.
I do want to point out however, that if the majority of your games result in 3 Gens popping during your first chase, that this is likely a problem in skill as in my experience as both Survivor and Killer, usually 1 Gen will pop during the first chase/unhook, a 50/50 if 2 Gens pop during this, and rarely will 3 Gens pop during the first chase (and this is usually just in the situation of the killer finding a REALLY good team or even just a REALLY good looper). If this isn't happening in the majority of your Killer games on the other hand, then great, what point is there to Facecamping and Tunneling at that point?
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-"So I'm a Killer main and I'm honestly not going to argue against most of your points because they're valid. But I believe my suggestions accommodate for the situations you have trouble with and, again my point isn't just that Camping and Tunneling should be 100% be eliminated from the game or even be punished if it was to be done at any and all point in the game."
Some of the maps in DBD are nearly impossible to win unless you play Nurse/Blight or have exactly the perfect killer+perk setup to defeat the cheese the SWF group plans to use. Thomspon House/Fractured Cow shed, Gas Heaven and Eyrie of crows are examples of maps that are just nearly a guaranteed loss vs "old school red rank" survivors playing with voice coms. It's ridiculous that you need to play Nurse/Blight to have a fair shot on maps such as these.
-"I do want to point out however, that if the majority of your games result in 3 Gens popping during your first chase, that this is likely a problem in skill"
Everyone is always so quick to say : you might be the problem. Yes there is a chance you are right but you're not when you consider the survivors I normally play against. The majority of people I am playing against are try hard 3 man SWFs. Most of them range from 2000-6000 hours but every now and then I will see someone with 10,000 hours or more. I'm not afraid to play against someone who has a high hour count; I am an experienced player who has also spent at least 1,000 hours watching people better than me play so I know far more tricks than I should.
Let me walk you through an example game where I play on a map like RPD. The central room and 3-4 connecting generators are the only part of the map you need to control. Typically I will harass to get a 2-4 hits and only commit to a chase I can end quickly. The goal is to hook someone in the middle hook of the main room without losing any of the close by generators. If you can do this and you have 3 close by generators the game is over - the other team just doesn't know it yet. If necessary I will camp the first person for 2-3 stages. If you lose the central hook you can use the hook at the top of the stairs and repeat the central defense dogma for the next victim.
This isn't some sort of punitive revenge strategy. It is a pro-active "I'm not in the mood for this map to be played any other way" strategy. Largely speaking this map isn't fair for the killer either. The only way to make it fair is to slow down the game. Survivors know they need to rescue and pressure gens but neither of those is an option if you play hit & run while someone is on the hook. The goal is a systematic destruction of resources around the main room that turns it into a de facto death trap. As long as you keep trading survivors and making sure they can't really break your three gen you will win as soon as you hook in the center room.
I'm 100% sure this is zero fun to play against. But as a killer I don't get a map veto option to abstain from unfair maps; nor do I get an option to play against solo players without voice coms. So I will play in whatever manner guarantees me the win - without resorting to cheating regardless of how it makes the other team feel. That being said I will usually lose 2-3 gens setting up the main room trap. Quite often every remaining generator is impossible to touch for longer than about 10 seconds
You can actually play quite a few of the maps this way if you want. And I do when the map is completely busted. As a result I get called a camper and a tunneler. But I have zero patience to try and play against SWFs who can regularly finish gens in 40 seconds as a pair (some can do it solo in about the same time with HF). It's been known for a long time that the killer objective take 6-9 minutes while the survivor objective takes 4-5 minutes. Better survivors make your objectives take longer while finishing theirs faster.
People sometimes laugh when I mention "tunneling gens" but it is 100% just the same as tunneling out survivors. People play the game in an efficient manner so they can win. It's not fun to have the killer chase you three times in a row so you die and miss most of the game. It's not fun as killer to one get to two to three hook stanges before all the gens are finished. What kind of game can you expect when you need to try and get four or five hook stages at the "end game"?
Tunneling is a two way street and it needs to be harder to complete generators when people play in a SWF. Deadlock should probably be base kit and it should have some kind of roll back so that two gens at 99% cannot both get completed by synchronized survivors so that one gen will always be locked at 99% completion instead of having a 0% generator be locked.
To emphasize the point clearly : SWFs absolutely break DBD and the devs refuse to make adjustments. I understand that many people would quit if SWFs got balanced fairly. But many killers regularly quit because the game pushes them to only play Nurse/Blight or not at all. It would be one thing if most of the killers had a MMR soft lock where they just couldn't play against high skill survivors. But survivors would not like that at all. In fact they hated it several months ago before MMR had the rules changed because the high skill players were only playing Nurse/Blight 9/10 games.
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