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The real reason camping and tunneling will never stop.
Rotten fields, playing survivor. Started the game uninterrupted on a gen next to cow tree for 50 seconds or so. Killer comes by. I loop around the cow tree twice, drop the pallet and lithe to a jungle gym. Killer drops chase. Chase was 27 seconds without the killer landing a hit. I go back to my gen which is 60% or so. As I'm finishing my gen 3 generators go off before I finish mine. I finish my generator, 4 generators done within the span of 20 seconds. Killer goes AFK.
Gen speeds are still an issue. I also had 2 other games with very fast gens today. I'm not great at looping but the game seemed to put me with very efficient teammates today and the games are a joke, can't even pip due to how quick the games go with the killer getting 2 hooks before endgame.
Comments
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Gen speeds not so much. its more tile generation and map size.
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The thing is they made it so Gens take a bigger hit during a Kick and buffed Kick perks but nerfed general slowdown perks but never touched survivor perks that increase repair speeds then gave survivors a perk with the current chapter that increases Gen speeds more and it synergizes with another perk where if played right will speed through Gens like no one business.
I'm not good at hitting Greats but my average streak is 3-4 greats in a row and if I had full stacks of Tapps Perk (for the life of me I can't remember it's name) I won't have to worry about missing greats.
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The real reason is that killers are also players and they also want to win.
Every buff survivors beg for and receive, every avenue of applying pressure that is removed from killlers, everything that makes the killers objective more difficult, merely drives them to employing cheaper, sweatier, more efficient strategies.
Every advantage survivors rejoice about, leads to more camping and more tunneling.
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I mean, the REAL reason is because it's a thing in the game, if it exists, people use it
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That's fair that you can't remember Tapp's perks, lol, but they're stakeout, detectives hunch, and tenacity
Stakeout is the one you're talking about
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Maps lead to Gen speeds being what they are
Plus having the Killer take a "unwinnable" chase means that the other 3 Survivors have more time to finish Gens
When it comes to Gens (and Gens alone) 1 second in chase = 3 seconds for Survivors
So if a chase lasts 30 seconds then that means 90 seconds for Survivors to do Gens
Plus whatever time between the start of the match and finding the first Survivor converts to 1 second of looking = 4 seconds for Survivors to do Gens... so if the Killer finds a Survivor in 20 seconds then that means 80 seconds to do Gens
Then we all wonder why Corrupt was used a lot... and now Deadlock (or both)
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Partly is I don't have him unlocked lmao.
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That sounds like a newbie killer. That has never happened in any of my games. Usually one player is getting chased and if they're getting chased too long 2 pop up. At most three.
Unless you were running something crazy, if it took you 90 secs then that means it also took your teammates 90secs each since you all popped up at the same time. You don't make any mention of anyone else getting in chase. Did killer even kick your gen? Just correct me if I'm understanding this wrong. To me it sounds like you were all spread out doing gens solo.
I really don't understand the point you're making, am I missing something here? If killer can't find even one survivor let alone down them, how is that the fault of survivors doing gens? Would you prefer it if they hang around the killer like flies? Was the problem that you didn't pip? I played a game once where we all escaped and I somehow lost a pip cause the game was fast and did only gens probably.
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Survivors being able to loop for ridiculous amounts of time is what the problem is.
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Killers still tunnel and camp at 5 gens so I don’t think that’s the reason.
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Well it's pretty normal because when killers camp or tunnel at 3 gen it's just too late.
Those strategies are only effective when they do it from the beginning.
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So you admit that the reason is because camping and tunnelling just gives easier kills to the killer and has nothing to do with if the survivors are rushing gens. I’m glad we can agree.
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I was about to comment with "the reason killers camp and tunnel is because it exists" lol.
Oh wait, my post doesn't actually conflict with that at all though, to "counter" gen rushing you NEED to do such from the beginning, otherwise it'll be too late when you notice it.
So yeah, I guess you are just incorrect.
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Issue right now tho are subtle hackers rolling around with 50% increased repair speeds, 10% running speed, unlimited toolbox use (including BNP uses), etc... Normally working hacks are expensive paid programs that only work on PC and Android, but right now there is a free way to do it all on those platforms as well as any platform that allows Microsoft Edge to run while the game is running.
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The game is in a bad place, and theyre making it worse.
By making top tier perks basekit, theyre letting survivors bring bully builds / genrushing
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Killers will tunnel and Camp regardless of gens. Or Map strength, or survivor skills or their own skill. It's human nature, you can't justify human behaviour with in game issues.
Can the game get rid of camping and tunnelling? Yes it can. Replace Hooks with a new function that has killers send survivors to the Entity for it to feed on them and then respawn them in safe place. No Hooks no Camping, Delayed Safe Distance Respawns to ensure no Tunnelling.
If someone wants to Tunnel then they are hard tunnelling and commiting to searching for someone after they've Respawned. At that point you can't blame the game anymore, at that point you have to realize some players will just tunnel just because they want to instead of having game as an excuse.
Camping and Tunnelling is a CHOICE not an imposed rule. Players are arssholes because they want to. Exactly like cheaters, they cheat because they want to.
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Agree and Disagree. Looping is their only form of defense. What can a Survivor do without looping? Without pallets and windows to vault there's no barrier between them and killer. This is where i disagree with you.
Where i agree with you is that when you start combining tools like certain strong tiles and certain Perks then yes problems start to appear. You're at a strong tile Shack and you got Lithe or Dead Hard? WEll yeha you're wasting alot of the killers time IF you make good use of what you have, if the killers doesn't have any counters to it, If the killers isn't doing well.
Skill and understanding of the game are still factors. You can give a Potato Claudette Dead Hard but she being a Potato won't make much use out of it vs a decent killer. However put Dead Hard and shack in the hands of a competent survivor and the time that shacks gets looped vs the same killer will increase.
And killers still have Bloodlust for this exact reason. However if you're constantly having to reach bloodlust to win in loops then there's something wrong. It could a literall skill issue on killers part, could be the loop that is definetly too strong.
In that case you're gonna need alot of Data to understand why it's happening. You need to get 2 players of very similar skill level, have them test each killer to see how they do in that loop, have to test chase perks to see how they affect the chase on that loop and then decide whats the conclusion, if the loop is too strong or not.
Keep in mind both players will have to est each killer so if there's 30 killers that 30 killers each player has to test. Then there's all the chase Perks aswell. Balancing a loop having all of this in mind isn't easy and takes time.
What is the optimal solution tho? Have multiple strength levels for loops, meaning there's strong loops and weak loops or have a more standard aproach where each loop is pretty much equivalent to each other in strength, which would mean that the overall strength of loops is either a bit higher or a bit lower?
Then you have to take into account that survivors have 12 lives, they're gonna need protection for 12 lives otherwise those lives will rapidly go away. If 1 guy loops the killer for a long time but is using all pallets then the rest of the team is gonna suffer unless they take every single second and invest that on gens.
If i'm being chased and i can lead the killer away then i will, the least resources i use then the better, it means my Team will still have them if they need them. I don't mind doing 1 or 2 loops, take a hit, go somewhere else, loop 1 or 2 times, make use of Dead Hard if i can to get more time and distance and do that again in another loop. If i didn't drop any pallets then so be it, if i dropped some then well let's hope the killer won't break them right away, those pallets vaults will still be useful for Lithe Gamers. If i manage to do all that and the killer leaves then perfect and if i get hooked then perfect too, i maximized time for the Team while managed to still save resources.
That's the kind of survivors i struggle with when i'm killer, the guys that can do all of that without wasting anything. How will you chase them if they can understand how to just go around stuff?
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The only way to alleviate camping and tunneling is to make individual generator repairing speed inversely proportional to the number of living survivors.
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They'll be fine without all the loops I say. I'd more happy to hit a survivor 3 times for a down if I don't have to run around the same box for 30 seconds. Even bloodlust doesn't always give you the oomph at stage 1.
Otherwise. Make the loops shorter so the killer can legitimately play around them. I try to use bamboozle against them, but it hardly works. Sure sometimes they'll not realize, but most times it's negligible.
I just think thats what needs to be changed more than basekit blah and blah.
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Killers not realising they're wasting their time and going after someone else is what the problem is. You're not entitled to a down.
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This is why I run blight. Much easier to keep pressure up, even at 5 gens on bigger maps. I inevitably lose those first 2 gens, but it’s much easier to maintain good pressure with 3 gens left. Usually have somebody dead by 2 gens left. If I dont, somebody gets tunneled out, and I continue playing like normal to EGC if they make it.
Every now and then I’ll get a pretty sweaty gen rush SWF that brings map and BNP’s. Those matches truly suck.
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Honestly the camping and tunneling absolutely sky rocketed with the introduction of mmr. I mean the day the mmr patch released the game was never the same.
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I really think it's map size, not gen speed. When was the last time you remember getting genrushed on midwich?
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There wouldn't be a way to make people stop camping and tunneling that wouldn't make people still play the game. What is the game gonna do? Teleport them away if the survivor they're chasing is just unhooked or if they're staying near a hook too long? They can't possibly make something reasonable to bypass it, since they are legit strategies.
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To be fair, many times I've championed for all the hooks working like the cages of Torment where you get moved to the other side of the map as a very credible counter to camping and tunnelling.
Ironically though, I'd say now the slugging technique is more problematic and why its being addressed so much.
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I think camping and tunneling is more often necessary than the slugging technique just to provide the killer with more map pressure, but maybe that's because I don't have high MMR so I don't run into those toxic SWF teams that people mention. I'm not sure but I'm interested to see how this new update is going to turn out.
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I don't know whether it's a regional thing but I see way more slugging than camping and tunnelling. I'd say, in all honesty, about 90% of matches where I am one of the last two survivors left the killer sluggs for the 4k.
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I will maintain it's a player problem. Some people tunnel strategically, many just get literal tunnel vision, or tunnel someone out because they view time spend on a surv as sunk cost. Some people camp strategically, but many people camp because they like it, or because they feel like it assures them of at least one kill.
For a lot of people, I think it boils down to asserting dominance over a single player, if nothing else/ What do you do with that? Not much.
You can curtail it with gameplay changes, but many campers/tunnelers are simply going to do it regardless of any countermeasures.
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If the survivors are much better than the killer, or the killer much better than the survivor, it's probably not going to be a long game. That's not a flaw, no need to draw out mismatches.
If the killer didn't find you for 50 seconds that means he probably chased a different survivor first and also lost that chase. Or given the fact that all of the gens hit at the same time, a sign he found no one. Either completely new or missed the start of the game.
Also, the killer now has 3 untouched gens to defend. Even if his chance of a 4k is extremely low, he can still get someone as the map has narrowed a lot.
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"-Every advantage survivors rejoice about, leads to more camping and more tunneling."
This is the hard truth that survivors do not want to accept. Why does a killer tunnel? They get conditioned when they play top tier survivors that they lose if they do not.
Also Killers tunnel because getting 4 hooks on each survivor does nothing. As long as that is true then it is better to get three hooks on one person and one hook on a fresh survivor. In order for this arrangement to change Killer needs Base Kit buffs that would apply a bonus for hooking each "fresh survivor".
-"So if a chase lasts 30 seconds then that means 90 seconds for Survivors to do Gens"
Most survivors don't play killer or they don't play killers at a level where the survivors are really good. And almost zero survivors can play any killer besides Nurse/Blight (or Spirit with killer instinct) at a competent level.
The reality is people who play DBD professionally as a streamer with 7-9k hours of experience get beaten regularly by people who efficiently focus on generator repair and can loop at a minimum level of effectiveness. The same streamers who play a comp team finish the game with 1-3 hooks. Is that exciting to watch? No. Would it be exciting to play if you were the killer in that game?
DBD is balanced around bad playes who can loop for about 30 seconds. The game is completely broken when you play people who can loop for 60 seconds. And then broken again when you have a bully squad who at the end of 60 seconds takes hits for the first survivor (or breaks a hook, uses breakout, etc.).
Tunneling might not be fun or fair to the survivor but in the current balance it is fair to the killer because chases are far too long relative to how easy it is to fix generators.
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Yeah that's a common strategy, but it was kind of annoying because the killer knows that if you don't try to come pick up the survivor you're a "bad teammate", but if you do, the killer will find you and you're dead anyway so I never really fell for that unless I knew the killer was a ways away. But that won't be common once this patch comes out 😅
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So the killer can get looped by that survivor for a ridiculous amount of time. Nothing to do with entitlement
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@DBDVulture I agree with you... and yes the longer the chase goes the more time the other Survivors have to repair Gens
And Survivor players need to understand this more (seeing how they can't play Killer "vary good")
Maps have a lot to do with it as well... and it's not the size that I'm talking about but Loops and Gen/ Totem placements that are the issue
If the Maps are seeded then that should mean that those things are dealt with... but they aren't
Please don't bring up Pros... they don't exist (either that or they spend more time playing KYF rather then the real game) and if they do exist then why are they silent about the game... plus they are either a 4 man SWF or a Killer player that only plays certain Killers
This game suffers from too much RNG to be a Pro game... Maps (in terms of spawns)... perks (they "ban" certain perks)... Killers (again they either ban or have a one time use)
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Well survivors right now are mainly begging for buffs against camping and tunneling. So that's exactly what needs to happen in the game. And those surely wouldn't make killers tunnel and camp more. I mean, what buffs have survivors received in the recent past that would further increase tunneling and camping?
Killers already received a bunch of buffs in the last midchapter update, survivors now need more help against camping and tunneling, clearly.
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It's everything to do with entitlement, if you refuse to realise the survivor is better at looping you than you are at catching them and continue to pursue, its no surprise the gens pop because you're refusing to come and chase People who suck at looping.... like me lol
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Except has nothing to do with being the better looper. Some loops you physically cannot beat them at.
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I'm still of the opinion, that DBD should have a different win condition. Something similar to Friday the 13th. Where survivors have to survive a time limit and they can do other objectives to either escape early or reduce the remaining time. That way a game would always be a certain length allowing for more gameplay, while also allowing for more interaction from the survivor's side, by giving them more objectives.
And the other objectives could be like making an escape vehicle or something. And it could change based on map. So like on the Game, survivors could search for personal keys or something, to exit the facility. Or on Lampkin Lane, you could repair a broken car and drive away.
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-"Maps have a lot to do with it as well... and it's not the size that I'm talking about but Loops and Gen/ Totem placements that are the issue"
Maps are a huge problem. I've lost every game since the last reset on Thompson House, Fractured Cow Shed, Garden of Joy and Eyrie of Crows as Nemesis. I have won all my games on The Game, Lerys and RPD with a 4k even though I hate playing those maps.
As I suggested before - the spacing of resources in DBD is balanced around low skill players not people with a very high hour count. I think it's important to mention the players who have 6000-10,000 hours that play in regular games. I see them at least once a night. I don't always play against them however because sometimes I just don't feel like it. And while having lots of time played does not directly equate to a skill increase there is a correlation that more time played means fewer mistakes as well as better adaptation.
Overall DBD has a slew of problems.
- There are two effective killers and every other model is defective.
- Map size / resource distribution massively favors survivors.
- By design killer perks are kept weaker than survivor perks (there's an interview from 2016 where M. Cote explains it) even though the killer only has 4 perks to face off against 16 perks. This inequality is fine for solo queue but is broken by SWF. This bleeds into the problem that is swf; it is an insane power boost with no draw back.
- Survivors want to tunnel out gens or "gen rush" but in turn do not want to be tunneled.
- There are no balance changes for people who have 10 hours or 10,000 hours. DBD would be very different for example if each map lost 1 pallet or vault for each rank tier beyond Ash. Imagine for example loading into Wreckers yard except the pallet from the Shack started missing, or there was no window in the shack. Overall just small simple changes would help keep the game fair. Removing 4 pallets/vaults from maps in red ranks would make the game far more interesting than artificial increases in the emblem system.
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And a lot of them can't be taken care of unless they re-code the game
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Yes, to prevent situations like these. Didn't think about it? Even if I don't get three ready genes for the first chase, at least one ready and two hot, if none of the survivors made a mistake and the chase was not too fast. The survivors have 1/2 of their work done, I have 1/12 of my work done. What should I do, go to the other end of the map to look for someone? Play as killer maybe before being surprised by such things.
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Readying up in the lobby as either role should just give you an automatic win with full iridescent medals, 50k base blood points and the max possible mmr increase.. along with completing any challenge/ritual you got.
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Baby killer lost
"That's my proof, BHVR!"
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Sure. So the priority should be measures against camping and tunnelling right?
Not basekit Unbreakable which will only lead to more camping and tunnelling. And yet all the survivor mains are rejoicing at their new basekit meta perk like it's some new secret weapon in their eternal crusade against killer mains.
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Yeah but I think that's more a person being an ahole problem then a game problem. I will start to proxy camp or tunnel if there's 1 or 2 gens left and I have no one dead, I feel like most rational killer mains play like that then the ones that camp and tunnel at 5 gens.
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This is the 100% truth.
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It's both.
Gens are too fast for maps, and maps are too strong for gen speeds.
One has to be changed to match the other. Gen speeds is just a number increase. Map changes will take a lot longer, and that's if the devs can get it right, which if recent maps are anything to go by, they can't.
I don't care which, I just want the problem fixed.
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