Way to stop killers tunneling/hook camping
Simply put. Balance the game properly. I'm a relatively new player, picked the game up in august, racked up about 8 days play time in those couple of months.
I play as both survivor and killer roughly equally, my first proper month made iridescent 2 on both. So probably a bit more survivor. Because my survivor progress is a lot slower.
Ive reached a point on killer where my matchmaking is consistently putting me against survivors well above my skill level and sweaty swfs. My games go one of two ways. I'll end up in games where 3 out of the 4 survivors can keep a chase going with me for an incredibly long time and the others rush gens. Like 2 gens by the time i get one hook, bully teams that prevent me from playing effectively. These are unpleasant games because when survivors are doing well i find they pretty much always get toxic, so not only am i unable to achieve much in the match I'm consistently mocked through the course of the game. Which is not a pleasant experience. In these games i have little option but to resort to things like face camping, tunneling, because if I play nice all i get is 2/3 hooks all game and excessive toxicity. I've been looking at stats on other xbox players i am matched against, and with 8 days play time i am frequently being matched with survivors who have 30-100 days playtime and know the tiles like the back pf their hands, can seamlessly lead me from one to the other with me constantly losing distance on them. Side note it also means that games with weaker killers such as deathslinger are a pre determined loss. Which is a shame, i don't want to have to sweat doctor and spirit constantly just to have a halfway decent game.
On the other hand i get the odd game where matchmaker throws a weak solo q team at me and i mince them so easily and rapidly that i have to deliberately prolong the game and mess around with them. Usuly release the last one if they haven't been toxic. These games are boring, also not a pleasant gaming experience for me or the survivors. Maybe 1 in 15 games I'll actually get a team on my level which makes for a challenging but rewarding game. I dont have to use grubby tactics, a 4 k feels earned or a hard fought 2 k is a lot of fun for both sides without ruining either's experience.
On the point of the title i am forced to play nooby tactics like camping hooks and tunneling just to achieve something in like 80% of my games rn. I personally don't really know how to remedy this situation, a finer mmr would slow down queue times and a killer sided buff would make the already awful solo q games even more intolerable than they already are. Always been an advocate for VC in solo q. If solo qs can improve their game using it then a killer sided buff wouldn't be such an awful thing. I just want to enjoy the game at the end of the day. And getting repeatedly juked and teabagged by prestige 20+ players who've played the game so much longer than me is not fun.
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That's kind of the ebb and flow of dbd, but there's a lot of other considerations. For example, what killer you play, what perks you bring, what maps you load into. or even what perks and items the squad brings. A flashlight in the hands of a weak survivor can buy you a lot of time and distance, a flashlight in the hands of a strong survivor can cost you a lot of time and distance. All can make a huge difference. Personally, I am way more liable to camp and tunnel playing pallet break wraith as opposed to starstruck nurse I've noticed. I try to default to playing "fair" but once I need pressure I decide it's not personal anymore and do what I need to do. I'd advice watching some good streamers play the game. Obviously none of them start off with the "nooby" tactics, but you'll notice that if the game isn't going their way they know when to start camping/tunneling and also how to do it efficiently. I say just dodge the stigma and play to win. Don't be an ######### unnecessarily, but if you need pressure, don't way about doing what you need to do to get it.
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Tunneling and Camping aren't problems that need to be solved nor are they nooby. They can feel cheap on the survivor side, but it's a 1v4. The killer has a better chance at winning by forcing another survivor out of the game early. Camping and Tunneling can help achieve that.
If you aren't enjoying tunneling and camping, then just don't. If you are getting matched above your skill level, those loses will help readjust you back to the skill level you should be at.
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So simple, balance the game properly.
Why has no-one thought of this?!
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I dont do it because I refuse to ruin the other sides fun and I don't ever need to. It's a very low skill way to get kills. It's that simple.
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I hope the devs continue to punish killers for playing the ways they have been, slugging, camping and tunneling. I have no pity when they buff survivor and nerf killers to try and punish these playstyle. And I play wwy more killer
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Fair response. And i do try and stick to a fair playstyle unless survivors are being ######### or rinsing gens super quick.
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You must not get challenging survivors if you have such a low opinion of camping and tunneling.
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They're not nooby tactics. Experienced players have come to realize those tactics are the best. Until the game gets balanced differently, to where we can win without using those tactics, we're gonna keep doing them.
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There a no incentives in the game to encourage killers to not camp and tunnel.
BBQ & Chili wasn't that good of an incentive but it certainly helped.
I miss my stacks.
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Good news, you can win without doing them.
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Against inefficient survivors.
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That's literally almost every Survivor.
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i got very good news 4 you,,,You got a perk called of the record which is like DS on steroids and can be used 2 times,,,You also got reassurance to pause hook timer ,,At this point i don't understand if survivor players want solutions / counters or str8 up disctate how killer plays the game
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No. It may seem that way in solo. If they're on gens, and you don't see them just walking around or running straight at the killer when you see their auras from hook, they're being efficient.
I'm hearing different from what I'm seeing in-game. I go for hooks, no other strategy, I get no kills. I go for tunneling and 2-hooking, I get a kill or 2. There's none of this pie in the sky scenario where you just go for random chases and get 4ks off just that, because you don't even get 4ks off tunneling and camping unless the survivors just decide they don't want to punish you.
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You must only play comp teams because most of my Killer games end in 4K's, even when my play didn't deserve the outcome I got.
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Well we've seen how MMR for some reason, on and off, has an inverse effect on the opponents you get. You and streamers who claim to win non-stop never seem to get survivors who just plow through gens. Gen speed is more powerful than looping ability. You can have amazing loopers and still beat them, but that's because they didn't do gens quick. Why, if 1 team can do 5 gens in 5 minutes or less, can your survivors not manage to do 5 gens in 7 or 8 minutes? They're over-emphasizing healing, or walking around, but they ain't doing gens like they could be.
My survivors? They'll push gens while injured, or they'll heal up and still do them fast. They'll bring 1 boon or multiple, obviously featuring CoH. They'll split the map, methodically, almost always pushing the middle gen first, even while they're sitting in my TR. They hold forward, and will scarcely not know how to run shack or a jungle gym for maximum value, and they keep the pallet up. They'll run meta perks, could be 4 collectively, could be 16 collectively. They will push gens while injured and on death hook, with no body blocker, rather than fearing for their life. Any time they get an endgame save, they never screw up and give a hook trade.
I may make a mistake here or there, but I'm running the loops right, I'm playing killers people say can win, I'm running the right perks, and I'm pressuring the gens. Why do I lose off of that so consistently? It's indicative of a game that requires you to play like a perfect bot to even have a chance against equally skilled opponents, even when they're not expected to display perfection.
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I honestly don't believe you but that's okay.
Statistically, you are NOT getting those teams every game.
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Tunneling and camping aren't nooby when you know when to do it. It's nooby to always do it but not if you do it strategically.
Nor is tunneling and camping necessary.
You will have to do it to at times to get into the highest MMRs but you should also take a look at the Venn diagram for you between winning and having fun. The more they overlap the more you're going to end in situations where you tunnel and camp.
I don't camp and I don't tunnel. I also lose some games I could have won but, if I did tunnel and camp, everyone would have a worse time (including me). I don't want my fun to be drained by being mentally exhausted from sweating all the time which is what raising my MMR would do if I did tunnel and camp strategically. So I lose a few, big deal. It's a video game.
I also have fun and I encounter very little toxicity. If you agree with that attitude OP, just don't tunnel and camp and your games will put you with survivors you don't have to do either to win. If your fun demands you win, sorry, you'll have to wait awhile to BHVR to change things.
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Orrrr just make hook timer pause if killer is close to hook.
Seriously, that's all you need to do. Would take an hour of coding max. If survivors come close to the hook, chase them away from it. It's really not as abusable as campers like to paint it as.
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“I'm a relatively new player, picked the game up in august, racked up about 8 days play time in those couple of months.”
Says it all.
Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
Just watch videos from the big content creators. You can win your games without camping and tunneling as long as you put in 5k hours. SWF doesn't even give any advantages!
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They tried that and Survivors abused it... so they took it off
And it wasn't Campers that did that either it was BHVR themselves
Can you imagine them bringing it back... Killers wouldn't have any pressure cause it's either suffer with quick saves or Survivors not dying and Gens will all be done with all 4 Survivors T-Bagging at the Exit gates
No thanks
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But the way to stop Camping and Tunneling is to look at progression VS regression (not Gen times) and then make changes to it
And one way I figured is to make skillchecks that don't have the great zone on it for like the first 3-5 (successful) skillchecks either per Survivor or per Gen
Another way is to actually look at Maps in a serious way
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They are problems. They are literally the most complained about aspects for survivor players, and are insanely unhealthy for the game, as they are no fun to verse at all. Things like that should not exist in an online game.
And some one on the internet telling everyone they aren't a problem won't change the fact that they are indeed a problem, or so many people wouldn't be complaining about camping and tunneling. It's also only in the devs best interest to address these issues, and I hope soon. Should killers get some compensation buffs? Maybe in the future yes, when camping and tunneling get continuously nerfed. But those would then be buffs that encourage healthy gameplay. Right now however, it's pretty clear that survivors are in need of some improvements, and the most obvious changes here are nerfs to camping and tunneling.
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Killers just received a bunch of buffs in the last midchapter update. Yes, there are still situations where you don't really have any chance to win as killer, but those have become rarer. And now it's time for camping and tunneling to receive adequate nerfs. Not nerfs that would completely destroy those strategies, the game is surely not there yet, but nerfs to make them a bit more manageable and fair for survivors to deal with.
Right now, they are just too effective, for the relatively little skill and effort they require.
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First impressions as a new player. Pretty important opinion for a game, besides 8 days play time may not be the solid 90 days people have racked up over 6 years but doesn't mean i don't understand the game. Not being a sweat doesn't make me incompetent. But thanks for your opinion.
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Only way to stop camping and tunneling is to heavily nerf camping/tunneling and its efficiency and enforce intended gameplay loop, period
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Oh the ego of youth. Look buddy, you just don’t know what you’re talking about and you don’t know enough to realize you don’t know enough. But you have lots of self confidence… good for you. My only advice to you is to learn humility. I have posted lots of times on the reasons for tunnelling and camping and what could resolve it. You need to account for different skill levels, proper matchmaking, solo vs swf, killer tiers, angering the community, existing perks and addons, human nature… lots of stuff. If you want to see my opinions in detail, just search. But short story is they will always do it because it’s the simplest thing to do. Noobs want to ‘win’ which means ‘4k’ so sure seems easy to kill survivors by just hanging around the hook… is it really this easy? Yeah it is.
You want to post that you know how to solve this with basically no experience. It’s just a tad narcissistic and arrogant, even if well intended. You don’t even have enough time in game to see trends. You just have some case studies. You had some games where as a low skill killer you lost and some where you won and you offer up your observations like those of us with thousands of hours don’t already know this stuff. Yeah…matchmaking sucks so most times games are unbalanced in one way or another. BHVR actually adjusts MMR with a ridiculously basic metric so probably all solo ‘high mmr’ survivors are ranked far below where they should be in an endless downward feedback loop. There’s just so much broken stuff and reasons why they don’t care, or won’t care…
Anyhow, yeah… i appreciate your input to the community. If you want to solve camping/tunnelling the only thing that will work is to completely take away the ability by going to a version of the pyramid head method universally. Hook becomes cage that sends them far away.
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Um, so you're saying you've only camped and tunneled against good survivors? :)
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I'm not saying i know everything, you clearly didn't my post through fully if you think i said that. I literally said "I personally don't really know how to remedy this situation" so read my post fully before you accuse me of being narcissistic and arrogant please. Especially if you are going to be condescending towards me.
The reason i said the opinion of a newer player is important is because new players are important to the game. If the game drives away newer players and old players drift away until it doesn't have enough players to support itself it can die, happened before with evolve.
Forums are literally for players, old and new to give feedback that can be looked at and hopefully acted on by the devs. I'm using this post to try and get a dialogue going about it. As you said that you've done as well. I have a couple of suggestions in the post, with pros & cons, and i wanted to hear more takes on it. I don't pretend to know everything, because I don't. No need to condescend to someone just because they are less experienced.
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The game is too easy as Killer in ~95% of (my) matches. If I intentionally go for max hooks as Blight, I can do so without bug abuse or massive gen regression, and only bring "feel good" perks. If I want to do that as Bubba, I might need to bring a little more lethality (bamboozle) or 2 gen regression/slowdown perks. If I want to do that as Sadako I need 3 or 4 slowdowns or 3 or 4 lethality perks (hexes usually). I am slowly trying to wean off my dependency on those perks however.
That last ~5% of matches are the matches where I actually get put against either co-ordinated SWFs, or all 4 soloq players that play like they aren't the practice bots (exaggerating). Those are the matches where my skills are actually put to the test as opposed to slowly painting by numbers a foregone conclusion of a "win".
When someone starts to crutch on camping and tunneling they don't build up the muscle in their Killer legs to walk on their own without it. To anyone that claims they can't "win" any match without camping, tunneling, or X perk (setup), I recommend you throw off what is holding you back. Struggle, build back up your muscles, and you will be able to walk, run, and sprint again in no time. Some Killers are so bad that they may require some level of crutch to be playable (Corrupt Intervention on Trapper for example), but most don't.
I can "win" camping and tunneling and in a recent match as Wesker I pulled off a 3k. I couldn't adapt to people greeding the gens at the cost of their fellow Survivor's hook states. My intel perks were tied to unhook (Lethal Pursuer+floods of rage and at least 1 Surv had Distortion), so after hook I had no good direction in where to go. I could barely find people and when I did they would fall quite quickly. Eventually I was able to get all but one of them. MMR says I "won" that match, but I know the truth, I lost.
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-Killers people say can win, running the right perks... still losing -
People have a tendency to sweat against sweat. I will play far more loosely as Surv when I don't see DMS+PR/Blight/Nurse/Camping/Tunneling. When I do run against those I either try to cap my BP categories if my team seems clueless, or I hard push an escape (no matter how many) against them. Sweaty players have a tendency to not care about the fun of their opposition, (hence doing the above list of actions/Killers/Perks) so I try to make their experience as legally, karmically, miserable as possible. Sweatlord Killers hate nothing more than a gate escape, and I try to give them as many of those as possible.
At the same time if I see a shaman build (all hexes) on a Clown I might pop a hex for the RNG of it being Haunted Grounds, even when I know they have Retribution too. That is hilarious when you can outplay them, and still injects some extra fun into the game when you can't. I do try to avoid that when I see Obsession claws wriggling on an uninjured Surv though, I'm not a sadist.
Edit: For some reason it formatted as bullet points instead of paragraphs - fixed.
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I am curious how they tried that and it was possible for Survs to abuse. If I am hooked with double the "camping" hook timer, and a Survivor is looping around my hook, that means it takes 120s per hook stage. However, that also means a Survivor is looping near hook, which means eventually Bloodlust will kick in or they will otherwise go down, no one else will be in a good position to rescue, and eventually we would be back to square one with 2 people on hooks instead of only 1, and my timer being progressed.
That also means they didn't put forth any extra thought like "pause camping timer when in chase". Or a counter to that potentially being abused like "AND if that chase is the longest chase since that hook." (To prevent chasing off from hook then camping again.)
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I wasn't playing when that happened... or just wasn't aware of it
All's I know is that they tried and failed
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That just seems strange that 30s of me thinking and coming up with a solution was not possible for anyone else in that case. Even then they could crowdsource the idea and have an intern cut the wheat from the chaff in terms of good cases and bad, and present that to whatever design team was working on it. They could even use Fog Whisperers to brainstorm the ideas instead of only the forums.
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No, but I had to play it safe. If you wait til you're losing to camp and tunnel, you just lose. I'd love to play chill against chill survivors, just blindly going for chases. But I can't do that, because if I do that against an efficient team, which I had no indication of just off of seeing them in the lobby, I lose. After all, even mediocre survivors can beat you if they're quick enough on gens. Looping strength literally doesn't matter for survivor until they start facing Nurse and Blight.
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But you came up with an idea that was already tried... so how are you any better then who they have?
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I came up with a solution to the alleged problem preventing the solution they tried if you didn't read my post correctly or I mis-phrased it earlier. Just because one person can't do a backflip doesn't mean backflips are impossible for another.
They came up with Solution X that had Problem Y. I came up with Solution W that solved Problem Y, and even pre-empted Problem Z (that was a possible but improbable consequence of Solution W) with Solution V.
I am not saying I have all the answers, I am saying if I don't have their job and came up with a solution that easily then there are 2 likely scenarios. The first being they couldn't do it from either not trying very hard best case, being incompetent worst case. The second being there were programmatical reasons behind the scenes that they didn't disclose.
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It's just hard to believe that you have it that easy as killer. Many killer players like myself know how to chase normally, and if it weren't for that knowledge, we couldn't camp or tunnel as effectively because the survivor wouldn't be on the hook in the first place. There's no room to grow as a new killer, because if you just go for chases, you're gonna lose at a certain point. Killers don't want to lose over and over, due to gen speed, not because of survivors looping really well, just to get good with killer. When they get good, they'll come to the same conclusion that we have, which is that it just isn't worth it, and you're better off tunneling.
You're pointing out exactly what I'm saying. Killers that suck need gen defense and need to tunnel. We just disagree on how much of the killer roster sucks. I think everyone but Nurse, Blight, and maybe Artist and Wesker sucks. They don't have the potential to down quick enough to stop the gens from all getting done. I'm experimenting with Pain Res/Overcharge/Pop right now, and maybe that will change my mind. But I still think those perks at least by themselves are way overrated. If anything, I am playing hard mode from everyone else's pov, because I don't use Call Of Brine/Overcharge/Eruption. I think it's countered by gen tapping.
Don't let some misplaced sense of honor take away your win. There's no stinking honor in any of this, and even if there was, the survivors aren't gonna recognize that because they insult you whether you play fair or not. If you get 3-4 kills, regardless of the means, you win. I would love to be your opponent if I knew that you wouldn't use every strategy available to you to beat me.
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Both of these experiences are true. How easy it is to play killer varies wildly depending on MMR, time of day, platform, crossplay, region, etc. That's why you get these vastly different experiences that both players swear are true - they are, but both players aren't riding on the same train.
Camping and tunneling is a complex issue that requires a complex solution to effectively reduce while still being fair to everyone involved. There is no single silver bullet fix that will make everything sunshine and rainbows for everyone.
You'll note I said reduce and not eliminate because you'll never completely remove it. People who don't care about anything but trolling someone else will still do it in some form. The simple fix with a very complex execution is to adjust the game so that camping and tunneling are not the most efficient methods of winning a match, and do it in a manner that doesn't punish killers or survivors overall. This require pulling a lot of levers and then making sure things are relatively balanced in the end. I think it can be done, the question is if BHVR have the will and development space to do it.
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No... you didn't you are just saying to try it again (but to give you credit)... Those are two different things
What does all that even mean... do you read what you type (to make sure what you have typed makes sense)
I don't have all of the answers either... but again you didn't come up with anything
Oh and that mistake became Kinship... so read that perk and see if you said the same things
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I think most people have a bit of confirmation bias, so I think most my killer matches are easy (hence 95% estimated ez wins). Other people have sting of losses sting harsher, so even though it might only be 1 out of 10 of their matches they might feel like it is 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, or even all of their matches felt like losses. I think the main reason I find Killer generally easy is because I only play weaker Killers when I have the brainpower to spare on thinking about everything. When I want to play just to play I give myself a brainless/autopilot build and go through the motions just to get BP. At one point you say there is no room to grow as a killer due to an eventually loss. The losses are where you learn something new, so it is better to lose. If I took that risky Huntress hatchet at long range or between strange map geometry and landed it, then the shot feels soooooo good. For the matches where I could have camped out a win then I can compartmentalize that thought. "I could win if I did this thing X. So I'm not going to and try something risky to see if I can get greater results." That way you have already won in your mind regardless of the numbers at the end. Refusing to lose is nearly equivalent to refusing to learn. This isn't a game against bots, I shouldn't expect to have a 100% win rate.
I disagree with weaker Killers needing to tunnel, as I can pull off far better results when I provide map pressure. By pressuring 1 person Killers will win matches until they are against better and better people. When they are against better people they have longer chases. When they have longer chases without the skills to shorten chases they will lose more matches from a lack of pressure. People, once skilled enough, know if the Killer is hard tunneling then the chased Survivor needs to use every map resource to extend chase, and the 3 other Survs just need to pump out gens. There is no map pressure from chasing 1 person the entire time unless the Survivors wanted a real match with fun, and throw the match to bodyblock. The ideal method of map pressure is 1 on hook, 1 in chase, 1 attempting the rescue, and 1 on gens. Hard tunneling changes that dynamic to 1C 3G. That will naturally over time lose Killers games by only having 1/3 the pressure. As far as gen defense perks, they are Killer second chance perks. If I were slow in chase and failed to approach from the correct angle or didn't mindgame appropriately, then I need a second chance of longer gen times. The more a Killer focuses on lethality and intel perks, the more they can reach that 1/1/1/1 pressure, and even speed up in reaching a 2/1/1/0 snowballing into an early win. Playing Survivor is the best way to understand what the enemy would do. If I see an aura on the far gen and I know the other 2 are closer, that person will crank out that gen unless I provide some form of pressure. Most times it would be better to let them give you a free 3 gen, but sometimes that is part of your 3 gen, so you know you have to chase them off if you wanted enough lategame pressure. Learning macro is far more important than micro imo. If there is a 3 gen with no pallets and no windows, the Survivors have basically lost regardless of hook states.
As far as the Wesker game I need to recognize it as a loss so I can prevent the lows from happening again. I haven't received any frequent negative commentary in post-game chat typically because I go for the ole' 2 hook tango before going for kills. Even when I kill them all the worst they typically hit me with is not saying "gg", or saying the Killer I chose was "boring". I can take the good and throw out the bad, and only linger on the bad if I can learn from it. My win is me enjoying my time spent. If I didn't enjoy my time then I lost regardless of the stats.
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It made perfect sense to me, it is basic logic, but logic isn't everyone's strong suit. Maybe formatting it differently?
Problem: Camping
Solution: Slow hook to half speed when Killer nearby (24m?)
Follow-up problem: Survivors "abuse" Slow hook by hanging around hook
Follow-up solution: Do not slow hook during chase
Follow-up problem of follow-up solution: Killer cheeses by entering chase and preventing rescues still camping
Follow-up solution to immediate above: Chase duration of "Follow-up Solution" must be longer than any previous chase since that person was hooked.
I came up with everything below "Follow-up problem" as you said they gave up when "Follow-up problem" showed itself, or at least it sounded like that was when they didn't work on it further.
"My" is in quotes below to refer to the changes as well as the slowed hook concept in the entirety as explained in the above section in this post. Since it isn't fully mine I am not trying to take full credit, but still want to quickly refer to the full concept.
"My" counter to camping doesn't work the same way as Kinship, as it slows, doesn't pause. Kinship is a perk that needs to be Survivor activated, "my" version is basekit and Killer activated (toggled more accurately).
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Camping is highly complained about but it's a player choice
So adding more time onto Hook stages if the Killer is within 24M- fair
But deciding if being in a chase is the be all end all... can still be abused, I can't explain it properly
It was basekit... but then they made it a perk...
Your solution does sound better... but I would need to test it out to get an honest opinion on it
Also they can't code specifics... just an FYI
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I'm surprised by why no one thinks about removing hooks altogether, they are always the roots of the issues.
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Hooks are a very big part of the game both thematically and mechanically. They are how the entity is summoned to sacrifice the survivor and what is more horror movie than putting a screaming innocent onto a rusty butcher's hook?
Plus the game would require an insane rework, i mean they'd have to chsmge the very core mechanic the game is based around so I don't see it happening.
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Reward killers for leaving the hook. Give them a mini-bbq Basekit or whatever.
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I've been playing against Surv sweat squads plenty recently. Only times i went with these "strats" was to get rid not of a good player or to get pressure but just to shut up some annoying flashlight clicking kid (usually camping pallets themselves and tagging after dropping it like they just solved world hunger.)
If a killer plays somewhat smart tunneling and camping are absolutely not necessary. Camping and hard tunneling some random surv right off the bat is just a crystal clear sign that you're stuck with a baby killer
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I tried to be optimistic recently, played a few games with no gen defence, played a few with Call Of Brine/Overcharge/Eruption, and won quite a few of them. But then I faced team after team where it's like, "What could I have done?" It wasn't their skill in chase that got me. It's the gens, every time. Double digit prestiges, running full meta, and sometimes even Adrenaline and Hope together, because they were just that confident, and they were right, that it would be easy to get to endgame. When I go for chases, no other strategy, I lose. You have to target 1 or 2 survivors, or else. You can't play like a saint, you can't not bring some meta, and you can't depend on good chases to carry you. That's why tunneling and 2-hooking come in. They make your chases worthwhile, because downing and hooking a survivor do frighteningly little for you in this game. It's when they die that the game turns more in your favor, but if your luck is anything like mine, you'll be getting a kill or 2 only after the 4th gen is done. I am not a baby killer, and neither are people that have come to similar realizations, thank you very much.
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