Dead Hard Rework = Failure
New dead hard is becoming increasingly meta again. It's not unusual at top MMR to see 3-4 dead hards every game. As usual, the community overreacted and declared a perk "dead" only for it to become a meta again a few weeks later. To get the most value out of dead hard, the proper usage is to use it near the pallet making the killer choose between swinging (and proccing dead hard) or eating a pallet stun. In other words, 0 counterplay scenario.
The Dead Hard rework has failed to achieve what it was supposed to do - to prevent uncounterable situations for most of the killers. In fact, it's reasonable to say that it has become even stronger than it was before.
But let's look into arguments that say that the new Dead Hard arguably has more counterplay/is weaker than the old Dead Hard:
1 "You can not use it for distance any more" - this is correct, however, you can use it near the pallet which guarantees a successful endurance hit. Now instead of using it to get to the pallet, you use it when you are near the pallet. And some could say that it's a nerf, right?? Well no, using it in a new way is arguably even stronger compared to before: 1 You gain sprint burst 2 You save a pallet. You literally gain more benefits with the new dead hard.
2 "Just wait it out" - no, you cannot "just wait it out" in some of the scenarios. A good survivor using DH properly is uncounterable by most of the killers. In other words, we're back to the same situation as with old DH where killers either have to choose between taking L or taking L.
3 "It doesn't do anything when not near a pallet" - so did old dead hard? In fact, the new dead hard is even stronger when used in the open as you can gain massive sprint burst if used successfully. Old dead hard, even if used in the open, bought you only a couple of seconds until the killer caught up to you.
4 "You can not use it anymore to gain distance to the window" - the only solid argument that could be said that new DH can be weaker than old DH. With that being said, while this particular point is nerfed, the nerfs are offset by buffs in other scenarios.
5 "It takes skill to use new dead hard" - one of the most oblivious statements to be made. It doesn't take much skill to use new dead hard in an uncounterable way. If a killer is close to you, and you are very near a pallet, press E. Few practice games and you can do it with relative ease and it doesn't even require you to time the killer attack. Congratulations, you just learned an uncounterable mechanic. Most of the community will know how to do this a few months from now.
Conclusion
Ultimately, the Dead Hard rework has changed nothing in terms of preventing uncounterable and unfair scenarios. It has become increasingly meta again and is not hard to utilize it to its most potential. Some could say that new dead hard is even stronger than old dead hard, and that's an insane realization considering old dead hard wasn't nerfed for 5+ years.
Solution
Remove the uncounterable mechanic of using dead hard at a pallet. After using Dead Hard, prevent a survivor from dropping a pallet for X seconds. This way, the perk is actually skilful and rewards the survivor for properly baiting an attack from the killer. There is nothing skilful or fair about using it at a pallet to guarantee a 2nd chance (why does this sound so much like old dead hard hmm)
Comments
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No one overreacted and no one said it was a bad perk after the rework, it's just fair. If you get hit by a dead hard now, that's on you
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Explain to me how it's on me when I either have to choose between swinging at a pallet (and proccing dead hard) or eating a pallet stun. Where is the counterplay?
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If you quick swing without lunging after the dead hard you hit a survivor while they're still animation locked (that works even without dead hard)
This is common knowledge for any experienced killer
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Spirit fury 😉
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It's a skill issue on your end, DH doesn't need another nerf. Although I will agree with you that in some situations like dead zones this version is better than old DH and can get you more distance to make it to a safer loop, but overall the perk seems to be in a fine place at the moment.
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And what if a survivor uses dead hard properly? In other words, you don't have a time window to swing "after dead hard" because you got stunned.
Your suggestion is based on assumption that survivor can't time DH properly.
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Just remove the I-frames from pc players and it will be fine. Pc players can use it after swing which is problematic but on console it does not always even work if you press it before hit. As long as pc players can't abuse it then it's fine. I have seen pc players even use it after they are hit.
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It wasn't even nerfed in the first place lmao. Any survivor who uses it properly is getting more value out of it than old DH. And using it properly is not hard.
"Skill issue on your end" sounds like a low MMR issue on your end. I am sure you are fine with new DH because probably survivors you go against are using it randomly in the open. In such scenarios, the counterplay is extremely easy.
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While you are right that DH is becoming meta again and there are quite a few "damned if you do, damned if you don't " situations, there are also a lot of situations were the survivor loses their nerves and dab ineffective before your very eyes, always the most hilarious thing to happen.
When I now get hit by DH, most often the situation isn't lost and I can get a down soon after, were in the olden times I died a bit inside with every single use and quite often survivors could get away completely.
Also I now see way more other exhaustion perks, with Lithe and Sprint Burst being both pretty common and a regular occurrence.
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I see. DH is not used properly yet to the extent compared to old DH, but I am already seeing even average survivors using it effectively. I think in a few months' time the DH pick rate will be even higher and it's already a top 3 used survivor perk.
I don't know though why you prefer old DH if we actually look at what happens afterwards when using DH properly. With old DH, you would gain a short distance and a pallet drop. With new DH, you save a pallet, and you gain sprint burst. It's just not even comparable in terms of benefits. Maybe a placebo sense?
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There are situations where Nu DH isn't counterable but those situations are far rarer, they don't hurt you nearly as bad as Old DH, and Old DH was that way in EVERY situation where Nu DH is just in some very specific situations that takes either great skill by the survivor to setup or incredible luck. Every single perk in the game has some kind of situation where it's not counterable, that's not special for Nu DH.
I would take every single survivor running Nu DH over old DH coming back and just being an option for survivors to run
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idk who brainwashed people into thinking this perk takes "skill".
like literally it's just a react perk it doesn't take skill all it takes is you reacting to a killer's lunge and it's just luck whether you manage to do it or not barely any skill involved.
and now survivors use it in situations where you're forced to lunge or when using your power (pig's dash - wesker's bound - bubba's chainsaw..etc) and you have no way of countering that so where's this "skill" exactly??
many perks that were changed with the perk reworks were changed in the wrong way like (self care - calm spirit - dead hard) and they need to be looked at again.
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Maybe? It's hard to say. But old DH wasn't 100 % of the guaranteed distance to the pallet/window either. Sometimes you dashed too far, sometimes too little. You had to have good timing (same as the new DH), so really, not that different?
Nu DH is just in some very specific situations that takes either great skill by the survivor
How is using it a pallet is "very specific situations"? It's a very common occurrence, and if they didn't make it to the pallet, then they had bad timing. Disagree though about it taking great skill, baiting M1 takes great skill, while pressing E at pallet is not much skill involved.
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Thank you. Seems like most people in this thread play a completely different game based on naive responses of "get good" and "skill issue". I'd really like to watch their games to see what survivors they play against :)
There is no skill, you are correct. It's basically a "get 2nd chance" perk (just as it was the same before). The mechanism of using it has been changed, but it still has the same broken mechanic of creating uncounterable situations that act as a free 2nd chance opportunity for survivors.
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Dead Hard is fine and does take skill
I can't believe people are still complaining about Dead Hard
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Yeah it's a skill-less perk, definitely no issues on your end at all... /s
If it's that meta then play as if every survivor has it, or you test for it and if they have it then great you now know and can play around it/bait it out. Yes sometimes they are going to time it into a pallet drop, but stop pretending like that is the only situation people are using dead hard in and claiming that it's un-counterable or too strong of a perk. You aren't trying to have a civil discussion here, you are just trying to get people to pander to your opinion, which in my opinion isn't a good take on the perk.
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I don't feel as cheated as before.
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Dead hard went from the most hated perk to the most respected, because when someone pulls it off (not near a pallet or window) i actually respect them for it
so no its fine
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Old DH was also useless in most situations besides near pallets and/or windows. You know, the same perk which had an 80 % pick rate at high MMR. So really, you're not making any argument.
you are just trying to get people to pander to your opinion, which in my opinion isn't a good take on the perk.
Please tell me where I discussed something in a non-civil way or demanded people to agree with me. Most of my opinions are unpopular, so I don't know how I can expect people to pander to me. As far as I can see, I am only interested in other people's discussions regarding my points.
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Yes, the perk is balanced and very skilful (maybe even the most skilful survivor perk) if used in the way you described - baiting an M1 attack. It feels fair, and I genuinely feel outplayed because I had the tools to counter this mechanic but didn't do it properly because of disrespect/lack of attention/etc...
Now what is not fair is when people just use it near a pallet to get a win-win situation for themselves. If they removed/patched this mechanic, the perk is in a great state and healthy.
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She is fury
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true that still the most annoying part about it, but i think removing that, would just make it very weak but again its not the perk its the maps, sometimes they can use it and gain a little time and sometimes they go on a jungle gym, but i see your point
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For me, I feel it has been nerfed, and now it is a perk that requires more thought in using.
The distance change is definitely a nerf, which you've acknowledged, and the issue raised is how to use it near a pallet.
But two specific points I disagree with are 1) the argument that it cannot be waited out, which I've managed to do a fair few times and I'm not an expert. It's true in certain situations it is harder, but they are similar situations as before - pallets, being one. You can bait out DH, but there are certain areas which result in a lose-lose. Old DH had a fair few lose-lose areas too. At least the new one is narrowed down to a specific scenario.
2) The bit about it not being skillful. The example given does indeed make it harder, but anywhere else not near a pallet does require timing, and therefore requires skill. It's not an oblivious statement to say it takes skill and timing, because in certain areas it clearly does.
From my games, DH is fairer than before. People may see it differently, and that's fair. Just it's not an issue now from my perspective.
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Then get to the point of your argument. Because everyone in this thread is basically disagreeing with you, and then your rebuttal is "Low MMR" or "non skilled survivor use a get out of jail free card". The point of the perk is to be a 2nd chance perk, would you like it removed from the game?
You don't like the perk, great we get it. It seems as if you're in the minority and a majority of the player base is fine with the changes. So it's time to adapt.
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I've deleted several comments in this thread for being unnecessary personal attacks. Going forward, please keep the discussion relevant to the topic at hand and do not hurl personal insults at players. There is no need.
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Idk I see a lot of Dead Hard but I also see a ton of Lithe and Sprint Burst in my matches. If we're going by the 0 counterplay argument you can argue that for these two perks as well as they work by giving you free distance.
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I wish they just changed this perk to do something else completely instead of keeping in this completely unfun, bogus gameplay loop of breathe down the survivor's neck and wait for him to Dead Hard before you can swing. It's obnoxious. No killer player enjoys this at all. It's amazing how they spend patch after patch to fix "unfun" things in the game that Survivors hate, with slugging being next on the board, while old Dead Hard stayed in the game for 5+ years, maps are still broken as hell, and 4-man SWF stomps every killer that's not a good Nurse or Blight. Literally nothing to fix any of those things that killers find unfun
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Old Dead Hard was better than the new version, but the new version is still quite good. It was much easier to use the old Dead Hard to guarantee vaults and pallets than the new one, for one thing, and also there are various things in the game that the new version doesn't help with that the old one did such as Trapper's traps, Deathslinger's spear, Plague's infectious puke, Doctor's Shock, getting through bodyblocks, etc. The only thing the new version is better at is it gives a bigger speed boost when it triggers (the old one had a speed boost built in too but it wasn't as much total distance gained away from the killer.)
Really the main problem with Dead Hard is cheaters using auto-Dead Hard which was a problem before the rework too. Otherwise its usage is still only about half what it was prior to the rework.
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The new DH its much better and rewarding, and in some situations stronger, you can for example go to the exit gates with the sprint you get from the hit and escape from very far away.
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How does that work? Is it a latency issue or a keyboard issue? I'm asking because I play with a controller on pc but via Geforce which I assume might influence the delay I get and I can never get instant dead hard. I'm sure I press it at the right time but it doesn't activate and I'm hit. I have to press it much earlier for it to work. It's really confusing.
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First off aren't you the one who made that bait post on how camping and tunneling is skillful?
- It's a risk and reward situation at pallets. I've seen just as many successful uses as extremely funny failures. It boils to who flinched first and how.
- Your correct that some situations you can't wait it out, but in other situations it's better to get it outta the way asap. I rarely wait for dh and I'm at least successful roughly 1/2 the time if for no other reason than sheer surprise.
- While new hard is stronger in the open, it's just as easy to bait or hit out in the open too. I prefer hitting but I'd think baiting is easier.
- Doesn't remove the fact that no more dh for distance. A major pain for all m1 killers.
- So people are doing what smart people will do. Adapting. Now killers are going to adapt ( or whine) and back and forth ping pong. As a personal opinion, I believe it definitely takes skill to use new hard, especially compared to old hard.
Survivors (at least that I've seen) can't immediately dh and throw a pallet unless hit. If they can't then it's not an uncounterable situation. If they can, I'd think that actually would take some skill to pull off. May be wrong about this but this is our opinion.
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Well it requires good pc but yeah they can use it after swinging animation starts. But on console if you press it before hit there is risk it will not activate. Sometimes it does and sometimes not. And you probably explained why you have bit more delay.
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Also some pc players hack and have auto dh.
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I don't see why people make the argument just tap m1. You aren't that close to tap m1 the majority of the time and you could use that flimsy argument for old dead hard when everyone knows that just isn't realistic.
The fact of the matter is if you're both looping well you have to guess they'll either dead hard or they'll just drop pallet and quite frankly if the survivor is good enough they'll just drop pallet and keep going.
There shouldn't be a perk that effectively disables lunging even if it's balanced it isn't fun having a core mechanic effectively removed by a perk.
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Do you have evidence of this? Because there should not be anywhere near that much input delay difference between the two platforms, especially since "console" is extremely vague and different consoles will generally have different input delays. You can react to lunges on any platform, but none of them can react to normal M1's, nor are you supposed to. You make reads on when the person is going to swing and press your button when you commit to that guess.
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I didn't read this whole thread but my God, please stop complaining about DH before the angry survivor mains go, "Rabble Rabble Killers never happy until all survivors start hooked!"
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It does seem like my reaction is good but it never register, so I am never sure if it's a delay from the controller or the latency. As the controller isn't as responsive as the keyboard (at least to me it feels a bit more sluggish) but I find it more intuitive to use cause I played a lot more console games than PC games.
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The only reason BHVR is doing basekit UB is because if they released the new mori system without it, killers would slug three survivors, mori the fourth, and the three slugs would instantly sacrifice. Devs aren’t releasing it because they think slugging robs survivors, they’re releasing it because the uproar of the tactic I just described would be tremendous. The game would hemorrhage survivor players.
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Luuuuuv
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I see a lot more SB and Lithe than I ever did before, even Head on. So yeah I'd say things have gotten pretty shaken up.
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The meta in the game will always be about maximizing your advantage while minimizing the opponent's agency and impact. Every meta shakeup is still going to represent whatever best utilizes those concepts. Since the game will never be able to properly balance for both low and high MMR, its basically just musical chairs until they actually normalize any of that unfortunately, and Dead Hard's concept (impact denial) is still the same, it only had its skill floor raised (and technically its skill ceiling, which is why its still very popular in high MMR.)
Tackling metas is tricky, especially in an asymmetrical environment. They're always going to be an indication of what aspects of the game need improvement, and which ones need sanity checks and synergy reassessments.
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I'll make you a deal. We delete dead hard entirely and you delete NOED. Fair?
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DS got replaced by OTR, same with Iron Will since OTR does the work of both and technically does them better. But one aspect they really destroyed what caused a meta was with Ruin and Corrupt, seeing as they're both useless and have no real alternative that addresses why they were run: Early game gen slowdown to prevent survivors starting with burst efficiency. No other perk has really filled that niche, the closest is lethal pursuer leading to faster early chases, but poor killers like trapper and hag have to just deal with how awful their arguibly necessary perks are now.
And ruin can still get clensed 30 seconds in the match, just in case it would have been a wee bit op.
Edit: Should also mention, DS actually isn't bad as it is now either, especially since it can stack with OTR/BasekitBT/etc. The stun duration is short, but all that means is that you plan to go down with it when near enough to a loop that you'd be able to reset the chase after. It even removes the deep wounds which means you can use it to get both basekit BT and OTR/DH/ other endurance effects after DSing them.
Post edited by Ryuhi on0 -
The best way to shake it up imo would be to make it so that variety is possible in all MMR levels. The game is too "solved" at any given time for high MMR to have that.
The crap part is that every attempt they make to fix it ends up being skill floor adjustments, not skill ceiling ones.
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Explain how my post was a bait considering it was all fair arguments and lots of thoughts/effort put into it.
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A lot of people on twitter overreacted. And people on there VASTLY outnumber the amount of people on the forums. Either way people that actually took time to look at the perk and realize "oh this is better against telegraphed m2's but not as effective against m1's" were a small majority of those people.
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Oh really?
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Spirit Fury is a waste unless you get a double tap.
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I'll take that as a yes
Is there counter arguments to the counter arguements?
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You're stretching so hard, that you might break your back, take a rest for a second, just wait dead hard out, everyone knows it's possible, and there's no reason to make excuses, otz actually gives compliments when someone does it well, as do I
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