Why is bt active in endgame? If you bring in Unbreakable base will it be active in endgame?
I just had a tense game against a swf who played really well. No toxicity. I got a bunch of hooks didnt camp or tunnel. Fun game as bubba on rpd. I got everyone to death hook except one who eluded me all match. I killed one. Then fought to keep the gens and lost. I found the one that was fresh hook as he was opening the door. He dead harded to open it but I caught him. So I bring him to the hook on the outside. With the door open the match is basically over. I was content with a tie. No one was going to get the unhook, but of course he 4%ed. So i rev up and hit him on the way out. Even with perfectly charged chainsaw sweeping I was unable to hit him twice, and what was a well fought tie turned into a loss. This is bs theres nothing I could have done to prevent that from happening.
Why are perks like DS and off the record turned off in endgame but not bt? Does the same login not apply to Base BT? It should be off in endgame. Then theres base kit unbreakable. I'm not going to go into why thats dumb but assuming it comes in it robs the killer with any kind of meaning counter to efficient teams. If I get one out then they are able to complete the gens often I find myself forced to slug to gain any kind of momentum. Those kinds of plays to create pressure is completely gone. No ones coming for the pick up because they can do that themselves consequence free. When bringing in base kit stuff please read more into it and test it more.
Edit: This is not "im entitled to a kill because of a down" its the base game mechanics shouldnt be taking away my ability to fight for that kill.
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had a discussion on this earlier but surv mains claim since killer geta "half a brutal and 2 stacks of STBFL" (1/2 of a perk and 1/4th of a perk) then its justified that survs get a full basekit borrowed even in endgame and now a basekit unbreakable. dont even try to discuss it with many people, youll just get dunked by both people and mods because the 4 outnumbers the 1. Sorry my guy :/
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Why are perks like DS and off the record turned off in endgame but not bt? Does the same login not apply to Base BT? It should be off in endgame.
Why? It provides an ability to counter being camped to avoid Survivors, particularly during solo queue, being completely powerless against the killer just waiting half a second to swing.
[for the record, i am completely against the entire finishing mori + unbreakable basekit system.]
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In end game dude. Its completely uncounterable. During the match its fine. Endgame no. Even bubba cant do anything about it. If you are caught in endgame the other survivors need to pull something to get that save. They need to earn it. Not just get it for free because of base mechanics. Your logic is like the equivalent of arguing that camping shouldn't be happening in endgame. A killer should be able to secure the kill in end game period. The mechanic takes away the ability to do so. Its completely unfair.
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Hook them further away from the gate.
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A killer should be able to secure the kill in end game period.
But.. why? If they've been unable to secure the kill throughout the rest of the match, why should they be able to guarantee it just because they downed someone at the easiest point in time to do so (as the later into the match it gets, the less resources there are to work with)?
There's an argument about a permanent imbalance at high levels of play which I agree with, but that's not the fault of BT in endgame and that's completely the fault of imbalanced maps, healing speeds, awful generator regression, and potentially the wonderful Hyperfocus Combo:tm: to delete generators.
So, why should you be able to secure the kill in endgame. Why should you be guaranteed a death simply for getting a down, when there are three hook states for a reason. Why shouldn't the survivor be entitled to a free escape by that logic- after all, the killer should earn the kill by downing them earlier to eat through hook states, or down them in a better place on the map to hook them away from the exit gate. Not just get the kill for free.
The entire argument just reeks of a double standard, and I hate it. The whole concept of free escapes and free kills is massively iffy and there's absolutely better arguments that can be made as opposed to "they should have to earn it so I don't have to earn it" and vice-versa. For instance, "RPD is a terribly designed map, particularly with the killer I was playing, and combining this with the 4% and overall feeling of powerlessness that came from the entire situation was demoralising, can we please nuke RPD further and fix the most imabalanced things to extend the middle of the games for longer".
(and again, this isn't to do with basekit UB which I think is a genuinely terrible idea and not at all needed. i know you said nothing about it in this comment but i also know these forums and would like to make my stance on it crystal clear).
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Or by the fact that kill rates are over 60%.
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What you're lobbying here for is the exact reason why DS and OTR were disabled in the end game.
How can you not understand that?
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Basekit BT has better counterplay than OTR and DS did in endgame scenarios. Only time I feel basekit BT is un-counterable is when the survivor is unhooked right beside an open gate, which you really shouldn't be hooking next to a gate in the first place, if you can help it. Hooking further away from a gate at least gives you a chance to force a trade.
As for the basekit unbreakable, it's not releasing as is any time soon, it's being tested and we don't know how the Mori rework will be when they release it to live. I assume however, it'll be usable in endgame.
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I think you misunderstand me. Its to have the ability to guarantee. As in fight for it. Not "I'm entitled to a kill because I downed someone" Its I beat him even with the bs in the match. Why am I forced to deal with in game mechanics that take away my ability to secure a kill? You twisted my discussion to one of entitlement which is not what it is about. If they beat me using skill or perks that arnt bs. Then its a fair loss. Which ill be mad about in the moment but a loss is a loss. When in game mechanics take away my ability to fight for that its unfair and busted.
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DS and OTR taken away in the end game was because theres nothing the killer can do in endgame to stop it. So it grants free escapes. Which Basekit BT does, so why is it active in endgame?
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Yes but in scenarios where killers are unable to do so it shouldnt be treated as an automatic loss
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So, the survivors have a chance to get away from a camping killer, it wouldn't be fair if survivors had nothing, if they didn't have anything the killer would instantly go back for the unhooked survivor. Now if were talking about the perk ''Borrowed Time'' then it should be disabled in endgame, 20 seconds is too much for endgame. But if were talking about the 10 second base kit endurance, it should stay active at any point in the trial, gives the survivors a chance but makes it fair for killers.
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Yet it requires nothing on the survivors end? nah. I would be more ok with Borrowed Time being able to be active in endgame if base kit is not. At least then a perk had to be brought in to get that survivor out. Instead base game hand held the person out the door. Which is dumb
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So, your point is that they have to waste a perk slot to actually have counterplay during endgame tunneling/camping? If they decided not to bring BT, then what can they do? I find your idea to be ridiculous.
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You want to flip flop the situation by disabling BT in the end game so the Survivor has zero chance of escape just the same as when DS was not disabled and granted a free escape?
This is the exact reason why this was a terrible idea in the first place, the idiots then seem to think everything needs to be disabled in end game.
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Its ridiculous for a survivor to earn an escape with their build and skill but not ridiculous that with no perks they are granted a free escape? What logic is that?
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The game gave them an unearned unfought for escape. If you take away the killers ability to fight for the last kill it is unfair. As I said to someone before I would be more ok with BT being able to be active in endgame, but not base kit. If they used a perk to do it thats fine. So long as its not an 80 sec or 60 sec window.
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The only scenario I can think of like that is hooking outside a gate. Which is something a killer has control over, by not hooking close to a gate (assuming your not going against a sabo squad or hook RNG ######### you over). One change I would like to make to the basekit BT is for the survivor to lose collision so they can't body block for their teammate. That would make it easier to secure trades during endgame.
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I still think it shouldnt be an auto loss even in that situation. With previous people I thought of the idea of making BT active in endgame but not base kit. So at the very least they have to bring a perk to get that kind of an escape
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I'm not mentioning about the ''free escape'' situation, I'm mentioning on why your idea isn't healthy.
I don't think you understand what I'm trying to state, if they had to waste a perk slot for Borrowed Time JUST to have counterplay to an endgame camping/tunneling killer, then that wouldn't be a good idea, as your idea stated that base kit Borrowed Time should be disabled in endgame, again not a good idea. The killer can instantly go back for the unhooked survivor and down them with no penalty, as DS or Off the Record are disabled.
You shouldn't have to run perks just to have counterplay in some situations when the killer is camping or tunneling during endgame, it's like you having to run Iron Will verse pre nerf Spirit to have counterplay.
While I do somewhat agree 10 seconds BT during endgame wasn't a good idea at all when they were releasing it back then, making survivors have NOTHING for them during endgame unless you waste a perk slot for Borrowed Time, that is never going to be balanced.
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You do realize that 60% is actually a fair kill rate. There are 5 states of endgame 0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k
So when you break that down,
20% 0k
20% 1k
20% 2k
20% 3k
20% 4k
So what that means is a 60% kill rate is actually a 2k average which is very balanced.
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The survivors do have something in endgame. Its to not get caught or prep for that situation aka earn your escape. I dont get why you feel that the survivors having something to hold their hand in endgame and the killer nothing is ok. So the killer should just be robbed of their kill by default by your logic.
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Good post. I feel like the imbalance at higher levels of play is never really going to be addressed without bracketing properly. To be fair, I think its reasonable if over "2400" (whatever you want to call it "high mmr") Tourney rules come into play, certain perks are disabled, certain maps are disabled and the game plays out a little "fairer" Also once you're there, you're there for the month. I mean at the end of the day, 4 brains good at something are always going to work better than 1 brain good at something.
This isn't a sausage measuring contest, but when I get to that kind of MMR (I know because I start playing with the same 50 odd people who are insane at the game((OCE BTW)) the game becomes incredibly stale. With good RNG and good perks most survivors can hold a chase for 2 gens or close to. I notice I start escaping around 70% of my games. This is why I left the game pre dead hard rework as I was escaping nearly every game and it fundamentally played out the same nearly every game, Which is boring.
Also once you're there, you're there for the month.
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You do have a counter; hook them far enough away from the gates that 10 seconds won't get them out. Unlike pre-6.1 DS, you're not stunned and can count to 10 and can hit then.
You can also hook grab rescuers. You have nothing else pressing to do if the exit gates are open. Also, if they're on death hook, it doesn't matter.
If the survivor ensures they have to be hooked by the exit gate, still has Deliverance active at the endgame, or survivors coordinate so one unhooks and then the other bodyblocks for the rescued and rescuer you just got outplayed, sorry.
If they just kobe'd off, well, RNG sucks and most times it hurts the survivor but if he just got the 4% chance, well, it's still weighted in favour of the Killer and bad luck (for you) sometimes just happens.
On the other hand, if someone hasn't been hooked and then doesn't have basekit BT, the Killer just got a kill on someone they didn't catch all game. That sounds unfair to me.
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You have time to wait it out, and if you don’t get that kill it is simply RNG. Same reason as many other things don’t fall into place for survivors.
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You should probably hook the survivor as far as possible so their 10 seconds of Endurance won't last them to the exit gates.
For instance, at 92% (3.68m/s) carrying, you can transport a survivor to a hook that's ~58 meters away given the perfect scenario. A survivor moving at 110% (4.4m/s) for 10 seconds can only travel exactly 44 meters. You have a 12 meter gap to down them, and likely more if you caught them before the exit gates. You can also body block them as well — making them cover less distance.
You had the tools available to guarantee the kill, but didn't know how to go about it. Sometimes when we are in a tense, stressed environment, there are things we don't see nor think about.
Truthfully, and this is more of a personal opinion, a 1K with 9 hooks is pretty much a draw, well done on that game!
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Perhaps you should bring a perk like Bloodwarden to prevent that escape?
Perhaps you could hook them further away from the exit gates?
Perhaps the Survivor doesn't 4% off the hook leading to their death the majority of the time?
Your OP wreaks of entitlement.
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Whatever dude lots of what ifs. If they beat me proper id have less of an issue with it. End of the day I got my last down and hook I earned that. Base game mechanics took it away seems like hand holding to me.
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Base game mechanic took it (my sacrifice) away seems like hand holding to me.
Yeah, I agree, 4% can be frustrating and I know they can even be game changing, but in your situation, you had the opportunity to still catch them.
The take away here — hook them far away from the gates, camp their 4%, proceed to bodyblock, down them a little after 10 seconds, then hook them.
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if u deactivate borrow time then survivors have from 0 to 0 reason to go and risk themselves by trying to save somebody, killers love when survivors throw themselves into the map again trying to help others because is potential more kills, dont give survivors reasons to leave and get 2 or 3 out.
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If the finishing didn't totally become so lame with the 4 slug instant win and totally made the mori items useless hunks of junk and just did a special location Mori on the last survivor then I would be happy....but.....no we have the hit mess of this....
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And what makes you think that all those outcomes are equally likely? I highly doubt that. 60% kill rate means, out of 100 survivors, 60 get killed, and that is more than a 2k. It also mean the average escape rate is only 40%, which is not every second game, which an average of 2k would suggest.
Also i think the extreme event 0k/4k are not equally propable in this matchmaking, since they mostly happen if one group is outskilled, however, at nearly equal skill one weak link in survivors can derail the whole match, making a 4k way more likley than a 0k.
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That is probably true the actual number of both 0k and 4k are probably lower and shift more towards the 1k and 3k side just like swf will shade on the lower kill end and solo will slide to the higher kill end but still if the majority of games end in that 1k-3k zone that is still gonna be a pretty fair balance probably still averaging around 2k whereas at a 53% rate you would average less than 2k.
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Let's see on your suggestion from another angle.
You've been told about your counterplays in case of presence of base-kit BT. You have your base-kit ability to hook people far away from gates (math already is in your favour) and then bodyblock to reduce 10-seconds-distance even more and survivor can try to outplay your bodyblock. Also in case of Bubba you definitely can chainsaw them two times, you just have to bodyblock them right first. I've been there pre-patch with old BT, bubba can do that. If you didn't get them without BT (perk) it looks more like being outplayed (even with bad RNG) than holding a hand for me. Base-kit BT is the reason DS and OTR can be disabled safely, in a fair way for survivors. But okay, let's say base-kit BT is too much.
So, what is survivors' counterplay in case of absence of base-kit BT? If you say "they can bring the perk" then you also can bring Iron Grasp or Blood Warden and case closed. If you say "they can simply not be downed" then you simply can kill them earlier or, you know, choose a different hook. Counterplay - it is a way to deal with a situation, not a way to prevent it.
So we are dealing with unhook. You got your hook, no one can take your hook from you; but everything else (like second and third hook and sacrifice in general) haven't earned yet (by game rules, otherwise there wouldn't be a kobe potential and hook stages in the first place). So kobe happened, now it's next fresh situation to deal with and both sides should have a chance. What's your suggestion here without base-kit BT? Get everything else for free, or do you have anything more fair in mind?
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Your first mistake was to hook near gate, that much is obvious.
But I just think self unhooks outside of deliverance are as lame of a mechanic as unhook grabs. Keeping them in the game is "fine" and all but from a balance perspective they're not really fair to the other side.
But at the same time, RNG like that, map RNG is part of why DBD is played so much, it just adds complexity and unpredictability which keeps people playing.
As for BT in endgame/self unhooks, I'm cool with it, most killers can easily get a trade. It's your responsibility to push survs out, keep them injured, and hook far away from the gate anyway.
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why should basekit bt be off in end game? so if you chase me for 2000 years and you finally catch me in end game, you should be able to hit me right after I get unhooked?
do you really need that 1 kill so bad?
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That's why you bring SH: Monstrous Shrine
... Lol
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Why don't we just disable all perks at endgame, every last one of them. Then we can all complain about it together. Honestly I think it is incredibly bad game design to disable any perk at end game.
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Bubba cant do anything about it????? On what ######### planet can he not do anything about it?
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"If they beat me proper"
If you're being robbed of your only kill in end game because "bt" then yes,you alr got beaten proper.
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You did earn your last hook. You didn't earn an endgame kill. The survivor got hooked but earned an escape.
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I called it
Unbreakable and Deliverance are going to be deactivate in the endgame very soon
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That’s not an option if they can wiggle.
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because if a ######### 4% chance that should not exist because survivors are often using it on low ranks for no reason and on higher ranks it's just unfair if someone is lucky. With perks yeah but 4% chance of escaping while you were downed in endgame because yes is stupid. Also killer first needed to catch you too. The problem here was not bt as the post says but the ######### 4% chance of escaping
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Also killer first needed to catch you too
And the killer was rewarded for catching the survivor with a hook state, thus progressing their objective of twelve.
And again, if you failed to catch someone for 5 generators and enough time for the exit gate to open, why shouldn't they have the option that's been in the game for 6 and a half years and is ingrained into every killer player's head as a possibility so something that you should plan around. Killer gameplay is as focused on macromanagement and focusing on the whole game as it is micromanagement and focusing on exactly what is happening with each individual survivor.
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If basekit Endurance and Haste after hook rescue doesn't activate in end-game, DS and OTR shouldn't be disabled in end-game.
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If you ask me, nothing should be disabled in the end game.
Devs should just figure out a real solution to camping & tunneling, so that perks like OTR and DS don't need to exist.
If the killer eats DS in the EGC, they "lost the game" long before they got to EGC.
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But by this logic in a normal game killer should be rewarded with only a hook state regardless if teammates saved him or not. In this case the thing that saved the survivor was 4%, not BT. There's no way to play around 4% and BT at the same time and even if this is for 6 years it does not mean that it's fair, because it clearly is not. Also survivors who are not saved by their teammates are not going to get escape because it's a cooperative game (unless you're playing as killer ofcourse). To solve this problem is just punish survivors more for leaving teammates and at the same time give them more options to save the survivor in the endgame. 4% is and never was fair
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Don't worry, pretty soon all these survivor perks are going to deactivate after the gates are powered up
Deliverance, Unbreakable, Borrowed Time, Renewal, Resurgence, Breakdown, Breakout, Saboteur, Lucky Break, all exhaustion perks
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I don't love that. If survivors didn't die making hopeless saves at the end game and instead just left leaving the killer to one kill or less, the stats BHVR have would be more accurate of how well the game was actually matched and wouldn't think killers are in a much better spot than they actually are (at high MMR at least)
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