Remove Dead Hard
I admit that Dead Hard has gotten less annoying with the rework but it's still the strongest perk in the game and a major nuisance. Dead Hard has gotten weaker in some ways but stronger in other ways.
Dead Hard is the most unfun perk to play against. You have to wait out every survivor before hitting them to confirm they don't have Dead Hard or you get massively punished. It's such a cuck perk that prevents killers from lunging and hitting survivors when they've already got the survivor cornered. Even Otz thinks this perk is still annoying for this reason: https://clips.twitch.tv/CloudyUgliestChickenSquadGoals-ih6QsWm5I2w7X-cE.
It also prevents a lot of the mind game and outplay from killer. The way survivors have been using Dead Hard is to use it in a situation where killers must lunge. Say you are chasing a survivor at pallet and it's a very close chase, if you don't lunge, the survivor drops the pallet. If you do lunge, the survivor Dead Hards. There's no way around it, especially if you don't know if the survivor has Dead Hard. Here is an example of this situation: https://clips.twitch.tv/TenaciousUglyMallardUncleNox-HrJ-TjhuvYDTJkRe. You see how it's a situation where the killer must lunge and if they don't, they will get pallet stunned and miss the hit? There's no outplaying it. You can only pray they don't Dead Hard. Note that the Adam misplayed in this example by going for another loop instead of running straight to the pallet, as Otz mentioned in the clip. Instead of getting punished, Adam gets away for free because of Dead Hard.
Another example is when you at a pallet and the survivor is hopping from side to side on the pallet. They can once again force a lose-lose situation. Once you've got the survivor in a situation where they will get hit, they just Dead Hard. If you don't lunge, they vault the pallet again. If you do lunge, they Dead Hard. It's just bs. With the old Dead Hard, you can at least body block the pallet.
While it's not 100% guaranteed that Dead Hard will work, the odds are significantly against the killer in all of these situations. I elaborate more on this in this comment.
Dead Hard significantly disincentivises mind gaming in small to medium loops because Dead Hard can completely undo a major outplay or mind game the killer does. Why mind game them around a pallet when they can just Dead Hard with little to no counter and you just end up wasting a lot of time? Better to just eat or break the pallet. Note that with old Dead Hard, if you lunge, they Dead Hard, and you miss, you at least get the pallet. With the new Dead Hard, they get hit and keep running and there's usually no pallet drop, so the outcome is much worse.
New Dead Hard is also far more effective against killers that use their power to get a hit since the effect when it triggers is stronger and killer powers are usually very telegraphed making them easy to Dead Hard. For example, if Trickster got Dead Harded with the old Dead Hard, it literally wouldn't matter since the other knives would hit the survivor. With the new Dead Hard, it resets their knife counter and they make it to another loop.
New Dead Hard is also far more rewarding when it works. If you use the old Dead Hard out in the open, you only make a small amount of distance and the killer gets the hit somewhat later. With the new Dead Hard, you definitely make it a new loop if it works.
Overall, Dead hard is only slightly weaker compared to the pre-nerf and still obnoxious.
Comments
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BHVR, please just start all survivors on hook. These people won't be happy until this happen. Just do it, 4% chance is good enough to escape. If they can't do this, that's on them.
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There are a lot of games where survivors don't run Dead Hard and still escape. I don't see what your point is.
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There are even more games where Survivors run it and don't escape.
DH is fine, for now. Good players get use out of it but it isn't uncounterable.
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They're giving an example that's ludicrous just so you can understand how we view your statement.
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Previous Deadhard was broken and unoutplayable. Now, you can in most cases outplay it. The only issue is nearby a pallet: you press E and smashing Spacebar for dropping the pallet and there is nothing a killer can do.
Besides this one situation, which is frustrating indeed, its fine now, I guess.
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And what is wrong with people who is running Dead Hard? It is good perk but it is not op anymore? Just because they worked against you, does not means it is op or busted?
New DH is very baitable, if you can't bait it out then it is on you. I don't know what i have to say you but you just need to get good.
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That was person implying that survivors have no chance without Dead Hard. That isn't the case.
And I am telling you that survivors are already escaping without Dead Hard and removing it won't be the end of the world for survivors.
There are situations where you can outplay it and can't. I already provided an example. Say you are a chasing a survivor to a pallet and it's a close chase where you must lunge or they will reach the pallet, there are only 3 possible outcomes (let's assume you don't know whether the survivor has Dead Hard or not):
- you try to outplay/bait Dead Hard but the survivor doesn't have it or use, so they just drop the pallet and you miss the hit
- you lunge and don't try to outplay Dead Hard. They Dead Hard and you get punished
- you manage to bait out Dead Hard and get the hit
You see how it's just completely RNG on whether or not you manage to outplay Dead Hard and there's only a 33% chance for the killer to outplay it? Though, this 33% stat is if you look at it purely from an rng perspective. The reality is that it's lower than this since the killer is forced to lunge early or they will be too late to get the hit before the pallet stun. The forced early lunge gives survivors a chance to react to it and turn it into a lose-lose situation. You lunge? They Dead Hard. You don't lunge? They drop the pallet.
Post edited by adsads123123123123 on0 -
Thats exactly the situation I mentioned ;-).
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Ok. You try to bait out Dead Hard, the survivor doesn't have it and drops the pallet on you. Congrats you just missed the hit when you could have lunged and got them?
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They don't have a chance with DH either.
If a Killer wants to ruin your match, DH isn't gonna make a difference lol.
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I'm going to respond to every single request for SoloQ help with 'LMAO yOu JuSt WaNt EZ WiNz!!!!111 just start in exit gates!!11' because that's the general level of debate on this forum now. Dead Hard never should've gotten into the game in the first place. Meanwhile it remains a free health state at pallets.
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Deal with it like the rest of us. You're already putting yourself at a disadvantage by playing ######### TRICKSTER.
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Of all the busted-ass perks in this game, Dead Hard is literally at the bottom of the list. Worst-case scenario, they Dead Hard to a pallet or window, and the chase goes on a little longer. I hardly even notice them using it. OP is getting way too tilted over this.
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Dead Hard against Killers playing on console is the hardest because their reaction time is higher than the duration of Dead Hard.
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its only mildly annoying on nurse and blight
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Imagine thinking solo Q is ez win. Common spirit main L
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I agree that the perk is still problematic.
It's a lot more balanced than the previous version, but a perk like Dead Hard that basically prevents you from lunging at anyone until you know that they don't have it is never going to be healthy for the game.
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DH can get removed the day NOED is removed.
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That perk is only annoying if you don't wait it out.
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They could have held that last knife then throw it.
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I'll take that trade any day.
True but the new Dead Hard is still stronger. The old Dead Hard was completely useless against Trickster. It's also better against Main Event where you can't pause your knives. Regardless, it's just an example. Another example would be Bubba. You basically can't use your Chainsaw against an injured survivor since it's a guaranteed Dead Hard.
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Just a remark:
Even though new DH might be better against Trickster, it's totally useless against Trapper Traps, Legion Frency and Deathslinger Shot now. So when considering DH potential against killer powers, it sure was a nerf.
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No one plays Trapper and he's still the worst killer in the game after the Dead Hard change, so it doesn't matter. Against Legion Frenzy, it barely makes a difference. You're already injured if you can use Dead Hard. You're only avoiding the mending effect. The only exception is if Legion is in his last hit mode, but that's rare. It's a buff for Death Slinger but he also got nerfed massively, so it evens out. Other than that, new Dead Hard is better against most killer powers.
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The point is you're sounding like an entitled killer main who can't stop from breaking a chase and constantly wants 4ks all the time and cries when you dont
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Worst killer? My man have you seen freddy
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I don't even play Trickster. He's just an example for how the new Dead Hard is stronger against killer powers. New Dead Hard is stronger against most killer powers. There's a long list of killers I can go on where new Dead Hard is stronger. Here are some more examples:
Huntress: old Dead Hard: survivor dodges hatchet w/e. You can throw another one shortly after. New Dead Hard: survivor gets a speed boost and makes it to another loop and Huntress has to catch up to them with her 110 ms.
Bubba: survivors are guaranteed to Dead Hard against Bubba's Chainsaw. There's nothing Bubba can do. Against old Dead Hard, you just keep chasing them with Chainsaw and they die
Pig: new Dead Hard: they get speed boost and run away. Old Dead Hard: you keep chasing them with your charge attack and get the hit
Honestly, I bet that's what you say to every killer that asks for survivor nerfs. Doesn't matter what the killer says. They're a cry baby if they ask for survivor nerfs.
I have no idea how not breaking from chase has anything to do with this. Getting Dead Harded in an uncounterable way is something that happens to every killer. Here is an example of this https://clips.twitch.tv/TenaciousUglyMallardUncleNox-HrJ-TjhuvYDTJkRe. If you think it's fair that the survivor can Dead Hard to escape with little to no counter in a situation where they misplayed like in this example, please elaborate. Thank you.
Yes. Worse than Freddy. Trapper is considered the worst killer by many. He is at least bottom 3 if you don't think so.
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I agree. Delete DH. But delete camping and tunneling. Fair deal. Both are unfair to play against and provide advantage to other side.
If not, then I am absolutely against YET ANOTHER killer buff
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I'll take that change. In fact, there would probably be less need to tunnel and camp if it wasn't for Dead Hard because of how powerful it is in chase.
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Even if "no one play Trapper", DH still does not counter traps anymore. So in this regard its weaker then before.
The legion rework allows legion to down someone with the fifth chain hit. So old DH could be used to prevent this fifth hit, but more importantly, break the chain by making them miss due to iframes. That does not work with new DH anymore, legion will still hit you and increase his chain. So against legion, new DH literally does nothing, except maybe for the fifth hit (don't now if you can prevent going down with new DH).
New DH does nothing against Deathslinger, the surv will still be harpooned. That Slinger may have received other nerfs is irrelevant to the claim that new DH is better than old, so we shouldn't count that in.
I explicitly mentioned those three killers because DH has a unique interaction with them (or no effect on them). Many of the other killer powers do not interact at all with DH (wailing bell, stalking, traps, gas), or it behaves the same as with regular M1 hits (chainsaw, hatchet, blink attack).
Sure, the effect on regular hits is better than before (on-hit speedbost + successful hit cooldown, compared to iframes + miss cooldown). Although you have to time it better now (0.5s vs 1s). But I wouldn't call that "working against killer powers", it's just working against hits.
So, maybe we can agree, that it's a bit more powerful when triggered on hits, but less powerful against specific killer powers.
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Became a main Legion and your DH problem is solved.
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In no world is he worse than freddy lol
either you are intentionally not ever picking up or placing traps or you are terrible at placing them somehow (which really isnt hard, you just place them at a window, its simple)
Its laughable that you actually think that, especially since trapper actually has addons that ste useful
The only POSSIBLE way he could be worse is if there were only 2 traps on the entire map, all his addons get nerfed into uselessness (like freddy's), his traps can get disarmed in 1.5 seconds, and his traps take 7 seconds to set, as well as the survivor being able to attempt escape every 0.5 seconds with a 50% chance to escape
Thats literally the only way he can be worse, but as none of this is true, he is MILES better than freddy (and sadako, but at least sadako has useful addons as well like ring drawing and iri tape)
Freddy's whole power is literally puddles that can be disabled at any time just by being awake, if they for some reason on (because his power is so weak u can spend the whole time in the dream world and nothing much will change)
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Cool. Now we are in agreement. But no (partial) going back
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I’ve also seen survivors use dead hard to phase through me when I’m vaulting a window and then they vault back through the same window. Literally impossible to stop them or out play, they are just gone.
They can also run to the left as you vault a window and then phase through you with dead hard and run the other way to fake you out. It has so many little uses.
It is the best perk in the game, easily. It also creates this unfun situation where you have to wait for them to dead hard. Every single time you want to down someone. Unless you see them use another exhaustion perk.
My suggestion is to only make dead hard usable for 30 seconds after taking a protection hit. It shouldn’t be a second chance perk. It should be a perk that lets you save other survivors.
Post edited by roundpitt on0 -
I've played Legion against the old Dead Hard. Dead Hard didn't matter that much because a Legion wouldn't Frenzy an injured survivor, so if a Legion went for an injured survivor with Frenzy, that survivor would have to be the 2nd or 3rd survivor in his attack chain. Say the injured survivor was the 2nd survivor in the Frenzy chain, there would have to be a 3rd survivor nearby for the Frenzy chain to continue, which is fairly rare. It's also usually easy for Legion to outplay Dead Hard due to the high speed boost and the fact that an injured survivor wouldn't drop a pallet to avoid the Frenzy hit and if they did, that's good since it's a waste of a pallet. Something else to consider is that if a survivor Dead Harded to avoid the Frenzy, that survivor is injured and has no Dead Hard, meaning they are an excellent target for Legion to chase normally.
Sure, the effect on regular hits is better than before (on-hit speedbost + successful hit cooldown, compared to iframes + miss cooldown). Although you have to time it better now (0.5s vs 1s). But I wouldn't call that "working against killer powers", it's just working against hits.
I disagree with this interpretation. You have to consider Dead Hard as a whole to evaluate how powerful it is. For example, new Dead Hard is extremely strong against Bubba because Dead Hard is guaranteed to work against his Chainsaw whereas against old Dead Hard, Bubba would just keep chasing them until they die. It's clearly stronger against Bubba's power in this case.
Like I said, a lot of people think Trapper is the worst killer in the game. It's just your opinion that Freddy is worse. Trapper is ranked lowest on many of the killer tier lists. Here's a community vote on the tier of killers: https://dennisreep.nl/dbd/killers/. As seen, Trapper was voted the worst killer in the game. Otz, one of the longest Trapper mains, also thinks this is the case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whmrILaplk8.
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I'm not saying using old DH against legion frenzy was worth it all the time, it surely wasn't in 95% of the time. As you wrote, if you made legion miss his frenzy attack due to DH iframes, it made you the next target of them. But there were still rare situation where it would help to end the legion frency. E.g. when you are the forth/fifth in chain, to avoid the down. Or when you want to protect other teammates by making legion chase you instead. Old DH had this utility to it, which new DH does not have anymore. Thats all I'm saying.
You are right about Bubba, the iframes could totally fail you when in the open against his chainsaw. With speed boost from the hit, you might reach some loop with new DH. Still not guaranteed to get away (esp when Bubba has double chili), but better chances than before. Bc. Bubbas chainsaw does not stop on hit/miss, I would count this as another "special" interaction with DH. We would be on 3 worse (DS, Trapper, Legion) and two better (Trickster, Bubba) when only considering interaction with killer powers.
Don't get me wrong, I also believe new DH is (slightly) stronger than before. I just don't agree with claims that it's universally better. It is not, it lost utiltity against specific killer powers, but got better in it's general usage. And I really like that it's somewhat skill-dependent now, since the time frame for it's effect is so short.
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Not gonna happen.
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It isn't just Bubba and Trickster. There are many killers where their special attack is very telegraphed or obvious when it will hit or occur. Due to the ease of using Dead Hard against them and the stronger effect, the new Dead Hard is stronger against their special power. More examples are:
Hillbilly
Nurse
Shape (the longer lunge gives more time to react)
Pig
Blight
Maybe Mastermind
I also think it's stronger against Plague since if you miss your Corrupt Purge against the old Dead Hard you can just shoot again. Against the new Dead Hard, they get a speed boost and make it to another loop. Plague can also charge her vomit for longer to potentially hit them through old Dead Hard.
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But all this is not different to a regular M1 hit, thats my point. If you missed you blink attack due to old DH, you will hit it and grant endurance with new DH. Surv. will get speed boost, killer attack cooldown. Nurse or Blight will have to recharge carges, regardless of missing bc of old or deep wound hit bc of new DH. Pig will have to go crouch again, billy has to rev chainsaw again to continue chase. Myers just does an M1 attack to begin with. Mastermind was published after the rework, if I'm correct.
I may be very pedantic here, I know, but all this is just an iteration of what happens when hitting with M1. Of iframes being replaced with endurance. It did not get any harder to hit ppl with your power due to new DH. It actually got easier, bc. you will ALWAYS hit now. But of course they won't go down due to endurance, so you have to chase longer. Or abandon the chase so they can waste time mending.
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I wouldn't say DH is op anymore but the main problem this perk had, besides its uncounterability, still remains. It's not fun. I'm not talking about the kind of "not fun" that Ruin was and other slow down perks are now (although the definitely are unfun). DH means that killers need to wait in every single chase until the survivor uses it. Its pick rate is not 70% anymore (thank god for that) but until they show you another exhaustion perk you just can't hit them. I still have to wait and watch them try to spin and FOV-tech and whatever else. It kinda kills the momentum and the feeling of finally getting the survivor. I mean what is it with watching a survivor run in circles, klick their flashlight, and do whatever else until you think they have a brain aneurism, just so they don't DH the hit? It throws me off a bit but overall DH is in its most healthy form since it got introduced. Further nerfs would make it pretty much useless and a buff would inrease the pick rate to ungodly levels again.
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The main issue I see with Dead Hard is the auto-trigger cheat for it that’s been around for a long time. But cheats aside the perk isn’t as bad as it was.
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DH can be frustrating maybe sometimes still, but it’s so easy to bait out now once you figure out the survivor has it.
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People tend to turn to memeing or passive jabbing rather than adding something constructive to the conversation. just ignore them
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"But all this is not different to a regular M1 hit, thats my point."
The main difference to an m1 is the higher chance of successfully using a Dead Hard against a killer power compared to an m1. You have to factor odds of success into the strength of a perk. A perk that works 100% of the time will be stronger than one that works 1% of the time.
"If you missed you blink attack due to old DH, you will hit it and grant endurance with new DH. Surv. will get speed boost, killer attack cooldown. Nurse or Blight will have to recharge carges, regardless of missing bc of old or deep wound hit bc of new DH. Pig will have to go crouch again, billy has to rev chainsaw again to continue chase. Myers just does an M1 attack to begin with. Mastermind was published after the rework, if I'm correct."
I will have to disagree. I believe that getting the speed boost from endurance is much stronger than simply making the killer miss their attack with their power. If the survivor is in a dead zone or area with weak loops, this is 100% the case as the speed boost will allow them to make it to stronger loop. You're essentially arguing that Dead Hard would be as strong if no speed boost was given for successful use.
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DH is indeed becoming a problem again. I see 3-4 DH in my lobbies again and i play spirit so i hit the DH quite often from phasing.
I love how behaviour made it almost stronger than it was before and now that survivors have learned to use it again its becoming the most used exhaust perk again. Good job behaviour!
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"The main difference to an m1 is the higher chance of successfully using a Dead Hard against a killer power compared to an m1. You have to factor odds of success into the strength of a perk. A perk that works 100% of the time will be stronger than one that works 1% of the time."
What do you mean with "successfully using" it? With old DH having one second iframes compared to 0.5s endurance, it was even easier to make the killer power miss. So when avoiding the down by an attack is the success condition, old DH excells the new one. But, if your success condition is to live longer, then of course new DH helps you more.
"I will have to disagree. I believe that getting the speed boost from endurance is much stronger than simply making the killer miss their attack with their power. If the survivor is in a dead zone or area with weak loops, this is 100% the case as the speed boost will allow them to make it to stronger loop. You're essentially arguing that Dead Hard would be as strong if no speed boost was given for successful use."
I did already agree that the speed boost is stronger than missing the attack. All I'm saying is, it does not change anything about having to recharge the power and/or aim with it again. The only difference is they get farther away with the speed boost now, but thats just the same for M1 attacks. Yes, new DH makes it harder to down someone with a power, but thats not bc it works better against powers, but it's effect lets them gain more distance, and thats the case for M1 and powers.
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new DH doesn't even work for me, Still go down even if I time it just right. So never run it now.
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"What do you mean with "successfully using" it? With old DH having one second iframes compared to 0.5s endurance, it was even easier to make the killer power miss. So when avoiding the down by an attack is the success condition, old DH excells the new one. But, if your success condition is to live longer, then of course new DH helps you more."
I meant exactly what I said. Using Dead Hard against some killers' power is easier than using it against a m1 attack. This isn't a comparison between old and new Dead Hard. It's a comparison between using DH against a killer's power and their m1 because you keep saying Dead Hard is the same against killers' power and their m1. For example, if Billy is charging right at you with a Chainsaw, that's going to be very easy to Dead Hard since you just have to Dead Hard once he is close, making it a guaranteed Dead Hard. However against an m1 attack, the killer sometimes has a chance to bait it out, making it not a guaranteed Dead Hard. Using Dead Hard against Billy's Chainsaw is more likely to succeed compared to Billy's M1, which is one of the reasons why Dead Hard is stronger against some killer's powers compared to their m1.
"I did already agree that the speed boost is stronger than missing the attack. All I'm saying is, it does not change anything about having to recharge the power and/or aim with it again. The only difference is they get farther away with the speed boost now, but thats just the same for M1 attacks. Yes, new DH makes it harder to down someone with a power, but thats not bc it works better against powers, but it's effect lets them gain more distance, and thats the case for M1 and powers."
I don't know where you are going with this but this is my point:
New Dead Hard = speed boost and make it to new loop when it works = stronger
Old Dead Hard = only miss attack = weaker
New Dead Hard has the stronger effect. I don't care whether or not the killer has to reuse their power.
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Ok, I see we were talking about different things then. I was comparing old and new DH all the time for evaluating if new DH is stronger now or not. You compare it's success rate against M1 and killer powers. Imo we should compare old DH / new DH against M1 and powers seperately to assess which is stronger, but whatever.
"because you keep saying Dead Hard is the same against killers' power and their m1."
I keep saying the EFFECT of new DH once it triggers is the same for M1 and most powers. You get speed boost against both, and killer gets hit cooldown / power end. For most powers, it's just not different to hit new DH compared to regular M1 hit. Emphasis on the condition that DH is triggered! Of course the success rate (from the survivor perspective) may differ, as you pointed out, with M1 being harder to counter than powers (esp for M1 quick attacks, lunge attacks can be reacted to similar to powers).
But there are some killer powers that counter this: Legion Frency activating Mending on its own, DS just plain ignoring the endurance effect since spearing does not hit, Bubba being able to chainsaw through endurance and still catching up for a down (with chilis), trapper traps still able to catch you regardless of DH activating or not.
All this should be considered for decidiing if new DH is stronger than old DH:
Yes, new DH has the stronger effect when it triggers. BUT, does it trigger as often as old DH? You only have half a second compared to one full second. When you can use it reliably (e.g. against lunge attacks or certain powers), it sure is better. When you can't use it reliably (against quick attacks or some selected killer powers), its worse than before.
Of course players also adapt to this short comings. Thats why old DH was often used to extend the loop on the same tile, since using it in a dead zone would not help you. New DH can be used to get to another tile, so you would typically let yourself getting hit when its preditcable and convenient. Also we see more tactics like doing a 360 to bait out a quick attack. There sure is more skill involved with the new DH, since it's not as easy to use anymore, but when you are successful, you get a bigger effect.
All in all, new DH is stronger than old DH, but only when you manage to get hit at the right moment. So for seasoned players, it might be better, for newer players it might be worse than before. Can we agree on that?
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I think you are getting lost about what we were arguing about. We were arguing about the strength of new and old Dead Hard against killer powers. My argument is that against most killer powers, the odds of successfully using new and old Dead Hard is about the same but the effect of new Dead Hard is stronger, so new Dead Hard is overall stronger against killer powers. For example, against Blight, you just have to Dead Hard once he is charging and close to you, so the odds of successfully using old and new Dead Hard is about the same, but new Dead Hard gives a speed boost, which is stronger than just a missed attack. Therefore, new Dead Hard is stronger.
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Yeah, and I wrote:
"When you can use it reliably (e.g. against lunge attacks or certain powers), it sure is better."
So we agree after all ^^
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