Are killers going to receive basekits too?

I'm pretty sure at least 5% of that was from the dead hard changes alone, if I'm honest.

The "basekit perks" killer got were all inconsequential buffs having anywhere from near zero up to 1/4th of their value added at basekit, but they got more of them. Survivor basekit was a hard meta perk getting 1/3rd (further updated to 2/3rds) of its effect while also getting an additional bonus movement speed bonus for its duration, and instead of getting multiple weaker ones basekit survivors got multiple rolled into OTR regarding their applications (IW and DS especially, even BT technically) while even still being able to use one of their old meta perks (DS) to reset the limitations they then put on them as a sanity check (Endurance.) The +10 seconds per gen is an extremely variable value amount, as it means anywhere from +20-50 seconds due to the nature of gens being able to be worked on simultaneously, and thats not even touching the +/- variation to gen speeds from various other sources.

The way that perks killers got rolled into their basekit was done is extremely situational, and they weren't even worth taking as perks in their full strength versions (aside from Pop, which also got gutted in the process.) Their value is dependent entirely on chase cadences, which is why they have more of an impact at lower MMRs where survivors are less efficient in their movement and routing, while doing almost nothing at higher MMRs where survivors are able to make it to the next defense without the lost distance affecting the chase. Its unfortunately yet another situation where a change is done to affect the potential at high MMRs, but all it ends up doing is hurting the lower ones even further.

There is more nuance to the changes to either side than people give credit to, because its too easy to fall victim to confirmation bias and single things out as "what changes the kill rates." Its why Peanits pops in to discussions about it every time they release stats, its all a very incomplete picture that never really has the weight in arguments that people think/assume/believe/want it to have.

Edit: if I'm completely honest, i think the safest and most agreeable assumption to make off of a drastic performance statistic change like that is that "things changed a lot." Whether the number of variables was a lot or a little, significant changes like that mean that an adjustment period has been created, and further evaluation over time determines if the adjustment is reasonable or not. Some people never skipped a beat with Dead Hard, but others gave it up as worthless and are only just starting to relearn how to use it properly. Whenever there is a drastic change, people always "catch up" at their own pace, with the ones who take longer causing a massive initial change in statistical outcomes.

Only basekit i'd want is Whispers but tbh after 10 Lethal Pursuer matches it's not hard to guess where survivors spawn.

It has the same issue as CoH has had since the moment it was conceived: it entirely changes how core gameplay mechanics work. Like you posit, it might be nowhere near as bad as people assume, but likewise if they don't change the right things about it, numbers adjustments will barely matter. It affects far more than it is supposed to, and those echoing effects (and how bhvr addresses them) are going to be the biggest determining factor.

When they nerfed Reassurance for live it was done in a way specifically to prevent abuse, and that was what made people consider it worthless, while ironically if any form of basekit UB has multiple uses or too lax restrictions, the two would have had insane synergy due to being able to force lose/lose situations by dive bombing the hook and forcing the killer to facecamp/babysit them. Same with the Soul guard change in the UB PTB, if not for the 30 seconds limitation it would have created a perfect whack-a-mole loop from groups of 4 to become unkillable until they eventually bleed out, just like what ended up happening during the Boil Over PTB.

The fact they seem to be getting better about those stipulations and sanity checks (granted, they are still very far behind on them overall) makes me hopeful that they have the right idea, just that they're still not very good at finding out and understanding those problems until the community does that type of playtesting for them.

Allow me to elaborate since this person decided to leave out important details for some odd reason.

The basekit stbfl is only 2 and 1/3 stacks, that's it. As opposed to the max 8 stacks STBFL can get.

The basekit Brutal Strength is only Brutal Strength 1. For reference, Brutal Strength 3 is a 20% speed increase. Brutal Strength 1 is only a 10% speed increase. So in other words, it went from 2.6 seconds to 2.34 seconds. Insanely good, I know I know.

The basekit PGTW is laughable, kicking a gen gives 2.5% flat regression. PGTW post nerf removes 20% of current gen progression. Twenty percent. Pre nerf PGTW removed 25% progress of the total progression.

.2 seconds off breaking pallets and gens, .3 seconds of successful attack cooldown, .5 seconds of regression per kick.

Survivors got 10 seconds of bt and 10 speed boost for 10 seconds.

Basekit BT is just the bare minimum to discourage killers from tunneling survovors off of hook. And it doesn't even work that well, just adds another few seconds to the process, and maybe secures an escape in EGC. Basekit unbreakable doesn't sound too useful except for players who slug which is a pretty cheap tactic and tobhelpnone survivor have a chance to escape in the 2v1 scenario. Might cause twins some issues though. They could do with a buff when/if unbreakable basekit gets added.

Longer generators, quicker M1 recovery, slightly faster pallet/wall/generator breaking, less speed boost after getting hit and a mini PGTW for kicking generators.

Basekit BT is only strong if you play like an ass and base unbreakable is probably going to get nerfed before it even hits live servers.

Notice how all the basekit stuff survivors have received are direct soft counters to BASE (allegedly) tactics that exist by simply spawning into a map.

So I don't understand how the fact that survivors received these basekit small buffs warrants killers to have basekit stuff when they were just given buffs.

Survivors best perks were nerfed to ground which was huge buff for killers and if you don't play killer you don't know obviously know how those things improve killer gaming experience. Ds I can say it was strong before but now it tingles bit. Dead hard extended chases and you couldn't do anything about it most of times. Now you can usually counter it but it's still annoying but now at least everyone does not use it.

Killer basekit buffs does make difference in many close hits situations and just make the gaming experience better. Gen regression perks are even stronger than before and usually help you win but if match does not go well now you can just defend 3 gen area and eventually you can secure win I tried this in haddonfield and there was nothing survivors could done to win the gens were few meters apart.

In which case, the 2 biggest issues that were focused on were gen speeds and scummy tactics. Gen speeds were hit, with +10s added to each generator and a 2.5% removal of progress on each kick. Scummy tactics, including stacking second chance perks and the notorious camping/tunneling, were also hit.

The success at which this happened can be argued in great depth, but you cannot deny that an attempt was made to counter both of the major issues that both sides faced and complained about a lot in one massive patch (while they firmly stick their head in the sand and pretend that a lot of maps don't need massive changes). And these hits came in different forms, too, via perk nerfs, perk buffs, and basekit features.

One side getting a perk basekit doesn't mean the other should also get that perk basekit, and locking yourself into that mentality severely limits the design you can go with. Survivors got one singularly massive basekit buff with the post-unhook Endurance, while killers got lots of much smaller basekit buffs with the instant gen regression, survivor speed boost removal, basic attack reduction, and animation speed increase.

Hence my original comment, imho, still stands. Survivors getting basekit BT is not singularly justification for killers to get a perk basekit too, and anyone that believes both sides are entitled to equal changes in equal methods are people I am very happy are not on the balance team.

Gen speeds weren't hit hard enough, nor should they have been. The problem with gen speeds is much more than numbers adjustments, its the fact that they are impossible to balance with how variable they are in either direction, including survivor deaths or incapacitations. The gen speed issue and all of the pressure situations it causes issues with for either side will never be fixed until it is normalized instead of continuously stacking more factors in both directions. My point isn't even about one side or the other, its about the fact that the impact of the changes was disproportionate because they didn't address what the actual problem is, they just tried addressing symptoms of said problem. Its not that I think you're wrong necessarily, I just think they didn't dig deep enough into the issue and made surface level attempts to fix small pieces of it and didn't even do so evenly.

Exactly. They don't address the root issue, just keep throwing more layers on it until the jenga tower isn't as lopsided anymore. Its a terrible balance approach which leads to why the meta exists in the first place, everybody needs to stack their advantages knowing their opponent needs to do the same. And in the end, there are still plenty of problems left and half the solutions don't even work well enough anyway.

yep. Its the inverse of "we can't do gens because the killer is running 4 slowdown perks," both are two sides of the same coin. Its a big part of why the +10 seconds per gen didn't do a whole lot, especially since even that has a variable value of 20-50 seconds depending on how many gens are worked on simultaneously. The game needs to stop being designed to have survivors be too efficient at 4 people and too inefficient by the time its down to 2, even the efficiency variable itself is lopsided based on the number of survivors (which is why so many strategies reverted to tunneling and camping, and now tunneling 2 as a compromise) and they need to stop throwing more +'s and -'s on top. Killers need to slow efficiency as fast as gosh dang possible while survivors need to capitalize on how strong they are before their numbers dwindle.

SO many bad takes in this thread. Most of them by players who undoubtedly only play killer.