Where are kill rate stats for Solo Queue only??
Why aim for 60% kill rate if SWF is getting 4 men out 80% of the time while solo q is lucky if 1 person gets hatch 80% of the time??
They cancel each other out and keep the kill rate near 60%, sure, but it's not fair for killers or solo q
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The devs have already stated that the escape rate for solos or swf is, in the vast majority of cases, within a couple of percents. Only at very high mmr you can see significant difference between solo and swf, and that difference does not exceed 15%.
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Playing in a swf apparently increases your chances of escape by 15% (if I'm remembering that correctly)
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It's up to 15% at the most extremes (and this goes both way so some teams do worse than solos).
For the most part the devs have said that the advantages of swf in escape rate are very minor. Still they have talked about giving solos some more information so they still want to even the playing field, but it's not as dire as people act like it is.
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a lot of people also think that good solo queue or 2 man teams are full swfs tbh. a surprising amount of coordination can happen between survivors that have good game sense, even if they don’t have mics.
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lol, never.
That would reveal that the whole, SWFs are only marginally stronger than SoloQ is complete propaganda, manipulated data by meshing together low MMR survivors where SWF isn't that insanely strong. If you separated SWF vs SoloQ performance by MMR, it would reveal just how utterly broken the current system is.
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What soloQ players?
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Right here, chief
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My solo queue escape rate is roughly 45 to 50%. While I do sympathize with how frustrating solo queue can be any MMR, at high MMR, which I'm not but I'm assuming the good 4 man SWFs are, the last figure we got was a 15% differential. That's the most extreme case.
15% is a huge differential but it's not as bad as what you're suggesting.
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15% is a lie, when im in swf, and we arent even pros, my escape rate is around 60 - 70%, solo Q its about 20%
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At high MMR there aren't any aside from streamers who play so well they may as well not be solo.
And at very high mmr it's common to get 3-4 escape. Why? Because you can blast the gens and the game massively favors survivor. Also be aware that freddy got nerfed for having a 4% higher kill rate than the rest.
What this tells us is that SWF needs to be nerfed to adjust for very high MMR. So get to nerfing devs.
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15% would not be a lie. What would be happening is that your SWF raises your MMR and when you go back into solo queue you can't handle the same difficulty you could in SWF. Your teammates also affect your chances to escape and your solo queue randoms aren't as good as your SWF teammates.
Edit: Just to further clarify, high MMRs probably have a lot more SWFs than solos. The solos that are at that level are amazing enough at survivor that they can compete at a level most require a SWF to compete in.
What would show more of the advantages of SWF wouldn't be escape rate differentials in my opinion but rather the population distribution of SWFs versus solos at each MMR level.
It still wouldn't change balancing because Killers can still face SWFs and Killers can't be nerfed to benefit solos. What it would do is reinforce that solos need information buffs to bring them closer to SWF level.
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Find the soloQ player in this picture
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The answer
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Definitely more than that for me. I survive about 1 in 10 games solo, I die in 1 in 10 when I play with ONE of my friends. Not a 4 man, but one friend.
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The 6.1 update definitely affected Solos more than SWF. Consistently, you can play well and still be part of 6 consecutive unwinnable matches. That was never the case playing Solo prior to the update. I doubt the "each subsequent member of a SWF adds a 3-5% greater likelihood of survival as compared to Solo" number after the update.
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Dude, if I remember well we've already had a similar debate in another thread about those same numbers, let's not get into another one here x)
Instead I'll just ask, how have you been ? Which character are you enjoying currently ? :)
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I can give it to you: 90%
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Since BHVR admited the escape rates have a +-15% deviance and Solo being the mess it is probably tends towards the negative spectrum so take each Kill rate as base and then add 1 to 15 (15 being extreme and rare fringe cases), Legion has a 60% rate, its probable against Solo may be higher, maybe its 70% or 65%.
I know my escape rate as Solo after 6.1 is not 41% and not even close, probably close to something between 30/35% (not counting DCs, suicides or Killers giving up).
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It's...about as far as it can get, sadly. Buff solos in a meaningful way and SWF is untouchable. Buff killers and solos suffer.
What I'm really curious about though is - where are the stats from matches where no survivor suicides or goes AFK?
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killers having a field day against solo Q, and they don't even have to be good to get a 3 or 4 kill. I can only imagine how boring it must be to play killer nowadays.
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That's what I've been saying. I've been on solo teams, or had 1 SWF partner, and they gens went like we were in a 4-man. Also, the hook save/body blocking stuff has sometimes been flawless.
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Bear in mind that even after 6.1.0, full SWFs comprise a very small percentage of teams overall, so their much higher escape rate likely isn't moving the needle much on the overall numbers. Even 2 and 3 man teams are rarer than a 4 person solo (though I'd be interested to see how those numbers have shifted, I'd bet not as much as some might think).
I play only solo, and a lot of it, and my escape rate is probably 35% or so, and the main factor keeping it from being the 45-50% it used to be is people disconnecting or giving up. I haven't kept a log, but I'd guess if I excluded games where there was a DC/afk/suicide, my escape rate would be at least 45%.
For sure. Playing in SWF not only artificially boosts your MMR, but it just conditions you to that play style, and to having all the associated benefits.
So yeah, if someone plays mostly in SWF, when they do play solo it's going to feel disproportionately awful (like they've been handicapped), and their escape rate is likely to be lower than a solo only surv with a similar number of hours. There's no reason it wouldn't be.
BHVR is never going to restrict people from playing with friends, and comms are beyond their control, so the avenues for BHVR to meaningfully nerf SWF are limited.
Best option is to buff solo.
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Right now on average 39% of all survivors (SWFs and SoloQ included) escape. We know that SWFs out perform soloQ players and that the developers have given us a 15% deviation. So knowing this if you were to make a bell curve, you would have two large bells, one for soloQ and one for SWF. The SoloQ bell curve would be weighted towards the lower end (24-39%) while the SWF bell curve would be waited towards the higher end 39-54%. The way a bell curve works we know that 95% of all soloQ players fall within 15% of their average, but we don't know what that number is. It could be 39% or it could be 24%. Same for SWFs, their mean or average could be 39% or 54%. What is likely for soloQ is that it is somewhere in between 24% and 39%, but what is behavior okay with? I know that even 39% is too low in my opinion, and there is a very high likelihood that it is at least lower than 35%.
Numbers get even worse if you start to calculate the probability of hatch, as it is essentially a free escape 50% of the time. SoloQ survivors end up essnetially fight for a chance at getting one person out, and failing a large portion of the time.
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I don't even want them to release those stats. We all know they're gonna be bad. Sadly, this community doesn't have the maturity or critical thinking skills to understand that the numbers presented factor in all MMR, meaning A LOT of survivors would have died simply because they were bad. They don't see that; they just take from it their "killer is fine/killer is OP" narrative.
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Well we know that kill rate goes up as you climb MMR. So, bad killers are actually losing more to bad survivors, and good killers are winning more against good survivors. But I do agree with you, I think releasing the soloQ stats would decimate the already bad queue times.
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-"Best option is to buff solo."
Only if that means buffs for the killer AND solo queue players.
It is also misleading to say that swf is small percentage. Most games played feature swf even if 1-2 people.
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I half-disagree. When killers and survivors play at the same level, except at the very bottom, survivors usually win. That's why nobody plays Nurse or Hillbilly or Demogorgon at the low or mid level, because when they do they lose.
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The old numbers had it at 50% full solo, so you may be right, but barely. And I don't think two man is all that powerful; I feel like when you go from 2 to 3 person, then to 4, you're talking large leaps in power each time.
Also, I don't think you have to buff killer that much more if you buff solo, depending on what those solo buffs are. You're never getting solo to where 3-4 person SWF is regardless of what you do, so we're not talking a huge leap here.
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The numbers hard disagree with you.
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You're crazy if you dont think talking makes you better at the game. The information is invaluable as you always know what to do to make the efficient play. keep working the gen because i am getting a save, etc.
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And 15% is nothing???? Or what you trying to say here?
Killers don't need no buffs no more. Killers are strong enough to deal with swf. Anything else is either skill issue or bad luck (messed up tile RNG, being unprepared against prepared squad). Neither is fixable with even more killer buffs.
Solo Q needs massive attention asap.
It's always the survivors who are bad, need to adapt and git gud. Never are killers skill a debate here huh. So funny.
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I was just quoting Peanits, not really arguing in any direction. :)
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Right, and my experience disagrees with the numbers. That's why I don't rely on stats to form my opinions.
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Pretty much. Can't remember the last time I went down as survivor that wasn't my fault. It doesn't stop me from getting mad that it happened, or getting mad that my teammates did nothing with the time I bought them, but it was my fault. Killers can't even express their skill at 90% of loops, and instead just go through the motions, so it's no wonder why they'd appear to not have skill to the untrained eye.
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Peanits has already told you "The average SWF group, which makes up the vast majority of SWF groups, has little to no discernable difference compared to solo players"
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"Killers are strong enough to deal with swf"
You should really sit down and watch Dowsey, Otz and their team play hardcore survivor.
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A team of streamers that play DbD for a living with around 30,000-40,000 hours of combined experience is not a normal swf by any means.
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Why not?
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How many teams like that are out there?
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How many actual god nurses that down everyone within 60 seconds are out there?
People claim to face god nurses all the time. Despite the fact that her kill rate is no where exceptional. If there were really so many out there, then it would show on the stats.
Now on regard of the SWF teams with tens of thousands of hours under their belt. No one has an actual number, BUT there are enough out there that their escape rate is reflected in the stats. The 15% higher escape rate might not sound like a lot. But that percentage more than the difference between a top 5% nurse kill rate and a normal nurse kill rate.
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Good job using the stats the Devs said "Don't use these for arguments because they don't tell the whole story." I've personally seen the same Nurse prestige 82 twice that was afk the entire time both games until the gens were done and then they opened the gate and went afk again until the EGC ran out. They probably did that every game for days!
People are intentionally messing with her stats so she doesn't get nerfed.
And again with more of your stats. I never said normal SWFs couldn't escape a lot. You asked why Otz and Dowsey's hardcore survivor SWF wasn't a normal swf and I gave you an answer. Not very many teams have that much combined time in the game or they would be in tournaments and more well known.
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But if people want to balance Nurse around the top 1% or less of her players why can't we balance survivors around the same benchmarks?
That's why I'm against nerfs (not to be confused with tweaking and other minor changes) to Nurse and SWFs and call for buffs to solos. The 'god tier Nurse' is not typical but a very rare exception. Teams of survivors like the Hardcore Survivor team are an exception. Neither of them should be used for balancing purposes.
What should be used is how each side actually plays out in the majority of instances. Nurse doesn't need changes; if she did then her kill rates wouldn't be so normal for so much of the MMR. SWFs don't need changes; with the exception of groups like Hens or the hardcore survivor teams the escape rates are not crazy good. Solo does have a discrepancy between solos and SWFs so it needs buffs.
If we're going to call for changes based on the very top level for Nurse why can't we say the same for survivor? If we did that, both Nurse and survivors would get nerfed and solo shouldnt get buffs. That would make the game unplayable for a large portion of the player base and would only work if the game were a spectator sport meant to be played by the very best in the field. It's not; it's meant to be a game where everyone participates and should consider everyone.
Nerfing Nurse or survivors due to the top tier SWFs would not be fair to the vast majority of players. But if people are going to call for nerfs due to the top 1% or less of players in that role it should apply across the board. Doing so, however, would be unfair to 99% of the playerbase.
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Solo Queue is miserable, mostly for two reasons:
▪︎You can't pick your teammates
▪︎No coordination / Communication
We can't address the first issue because that's just how it is with any game. However, we can address the second bullet, that being poor coordination / communication.
It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Something simple as icons beside survivor portraits to indicate what they are doing. This will help with the hook mentality of, "Someone else will get them" when really no one is rescuing.
We can compensate with killer buffs since solo queue and swf will have similar power levels.
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying but even players with a lot of experience on both sides all say the same thing. That Nurse is broken and they prefer not to use her with the strongest possible perks and add-ons because it's far too easy to absolutely crush average players in pub games once you learn how to play her and it feels disgusting and unfair.
The only people defending Nurse not being broken are the killer players that use her a lot because they can abuse her power for easy win streaks against average survivor teams and don't want to lose that dominance factor.
I agree that SWFs are also a big problem. Icons on portraits won't be enough to put solos on par with SWF comms though. Icons can't tell you the killer's location and where they are going. Icons can't tell you what gen is at what percent complete and if it's safe to go finish that gen or not. Icons can't call out the killer's perks and habits that they are showing.
It's all kind of a lose/lose situation with solo queue unless they add voice chat. Voice chat wouldn't really help either because then people will still rage and say the most vile things to each other to harass players even more than they already do right now.
That's probably why they have been dragging their feet on fixing the solo issue. They just don't know how to buff it to SWF comms level without making a bunch of perks basekit.
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Where are kill-rates for SWF only?
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Every single nurse game for me is against a good nurse. Maybe she dont down us in 60 sec but it is the same is she does at 120 sec with 4-5 gens remaining.
I truly dont know of that 'magic region' where nurses actually play bad and survivors can hope to make a gate escape.
My Last nurse game was yersterday, a four solo q team (playtime was aprox 1000h, 800h, 200h and 600h) against a 4500h nurse. Needles to say she effortesly stomp us.
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I see what you're saying but I don't think changes should be made based on the very top if people other than the very top have issues. I'm defending her not because I play her a lot, I play Artist or Dredge most of the time when I play Killer but I solo queue a little bit more than I play Killer, but because if her kill rates are not crazy for over 95% of the MMR then the problem lies at the very top.
To further clarify my position, I don't care if they make changes but feel the changes should also be fair to the majority of Nurse players. As an example, Nurse has M1 attacks since she's so slow normally and needs to blink to attack. Okay, if her blink attack becomes an M2 then also suggest buffing her walking speed to 100%. She's still really slow and has to work for that M1 but she has a chance to M1 without blinking.
What I normally see in the threads is hyperbole and no nuanced discussion. It's just nerf! without considering why it exists or exaggeration. As an example, for counterplay, if on the second story of a map and the Nurse winds up her blink and you charge her she can either shoot past you or blink downstairs. I know roughly how far the Nurse will blink from listening to her and roughly will blink based on my distance from me to the Nurse. That's counterplay. Giving an opinion on whether there is sufficient counterplay is different than just saying there's no counterplay when there is.
For Nurse, I don't think she's overpowered. I think she's gimmicky because she has unique chase mechanics that people only learn to counter by playing her or playing against her. Since her chase mechanics are unique a lot of the learning how to chase against the rest of the roster doesn't apply so people suffer from a lack of experience in how to counter her.
For SWFs, in my opinion, a really good SWF deserves to win a lot. As you said, there are huge issues in bringing solos close to the SWF level. If you buff solos in a way that benefits SWF it's unfair to Killers. If you just buff Killers to match the best SWFs then solos suffer.
For the current moment though I don't want BHVR to spend time changing Nurse. I want BHVR to spend their resources on fixing solo queue to be closer to SWFs. That affects a lot more players and would have a far more positive effect than making changes to Nurse. Afterwards, then BHVR can see where the chips fall and what needs to be changed after on either role or on specific Killers.
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The devs keep going way out of their way to hide what the kill rates against 3 and 4 man SWFs are. That probably has to do with why they refuse to show who was in a SWF at least after the match. Hmm I wonder why
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Stats disgree wirh you high mmr has higjest kill rate so at high level the game is more killer sided. I think the reason has go be that in middle and low mmr killers let survivors escape and show mercy and probably play more fair but high mmr killers tunnel and show no mercy.
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And yet I've played against better in the "non existing" swat teams that all the survivor mains are "ultra rare".
High MMR is not fun as kiler unless you play a strong killer. The problem is that DBD has no accounting for very high skill levels. Survivor overall has way too much power at high MMR unless the killer is Blight or Nurse.
The maps have : too many pallets close together for most killers to deal with as well as too many safe loops. More of a map needs to be "weak" tiles for all the other killers to be fair. Also the tiles need to be spread out more and not so clustered.
Alternatively they could introduce a mechanic that gives you some kind of fatigue when you throw a pallet so you can't keep throwing them at "normal speed". Being unhooked would reset pallet fatigue.
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