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Too many killers when? Whats the limit?
Killer reworks, buffs or looking at/changing bad addons (Freddy, Pyramid Head hello?) can take years and years we all know this. So what about when we have 10 or 20 more killer than today? When will we reach a limit where we simply have too many killers in the game? Are we already there? Everyone seems happy when new killers are released but it does have a nasty downside.
How long can they continue like this?
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Easy: till its time to migrate over to DBD2 with its vastly improved mechanics and overhaul of the system and a fun re-release of all your favorite Killers and Survivors :>
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The limit does not exist.
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We already have more than enough Killers, it has been like that for several patches, the game is so bloated they have to rehash powers to make "new and exciting" Killers, lets post some examples of this.
- Wesker: Discount Nurse but cant teleport through solid objects, Clown slow and moves 115%
- Sadako: Jigsaw RTBs (stalling objective), Freddy teleports and Wraith invisibility (and all worse than their original counterparts).
- Artist: Traps+Hatchets.
- Pinhead: RTBs (stalling objective) and a Deathslinger chain+Clown slow.
- Nemesis: Discount Pyramid Head with 2 NPCs.
- Trickster: Discount Huntress, more lenient if you miss and 1000% tackier clothes.
- Pyramid Head: Discount Huntress with 115%.
- Deathslinger: Discount Huntress with a hat.
- Oni: Hillbilly but has to gain his power and is easier to land.
Whats next? Leatherface but with stealth? Plague with a bycicle? You can only add so much with the game mechanics the game has.
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Those are some damn reaches. You can dumb down every killer to some killer that existed before them, but that’s not really fair.
sure the base game sets limitations but that’s also kinda expected as all matches have the same maps and objectives and they have to build killers around that.
there sure are killers that feel unnecessary (Trickster for example, or Oni/Hillbilly) but all killers still bring some unique spin to the game
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Some are a bit of exaggeration like Artist (altough the set bird to close loop and force transition to other tile is damn similar to Trapper set trap to close loop) but in the end a lot of what I posted boils down to "This guy does something someone else already does but in a different way", the only real difference between Huntress and Deathslinger powers is range and deep wounds because other than that they play almost exact same (the reloads are different but serve the same purpose, making you lose the chase if you miss too much), Nemesis tentacle and PH punishment work very similar but one has more reach and ignores solid objects while the other break pallets, Pinhead is really just Deathslinger with Clown slow and the box (I actually believe Slinger power was originally inteded for Pinhead but since they couldnt get the license they just made cowboy Huntress, but just my belief), Sadako really is a missmatch of other killers weaker powers even her teleport almost always lets you get to a gen because they always have a TV a few meters away.
My point is, is the game deep enough to warrant 4 really fresh Killers every year? Because I dont think so and they have been recycling mechanics and adding a gimmick since several patches, lets see what the "knight" has in store for us but I dont expect anything original.
I feel the game looks like release Street Fighter 4 with shotos, you had a ton of them and they were all different in some way but they all played more or less the same and you had to counter them all using the same strats.
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Something similar can be said about stories. There are a few different schools of thought, but in drama theory you got about 36 situations that cover basically every movie, book or theatre plot on the most basic level and if you want to go even more basic, then there is the "seven basic plots" theory.
Everything else is just window dressing and settings. But does something like those even matter? I watched a lot more then 36 movies and shows and I am not bored yet, even though some plot points get recycled, and same holds true for the killers in dbd.
Yeah, if you were so inclined, some powers are "just" remixes of others or bits and pieces yadda yadda, but they all come with their very own set of personality and character, and that's why we all vibe differently.
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No Limit
There should be enough killers and maps and survivors that every game is different or way less likely 2 get 2 in a row
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Mm and Dredge coming out just after teleporting Sadako.
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Its a bit different with stories because imagination is the limit altough is true a lot of works abuse archetypes and publishers have "recipes" for best sellers where they know certain things sell more than others, and as you said, the dressing is what makes stuff different but the game mechanic wise isnt very deep so it doesnt allow for a lot of it simply because they cant, there is no room, for example you cant have a Killer like the predator games jumping from branch to branch without overhauling the entire game, or Killer that summons swarms of enemies.
Ive seen bloating creeping in games and DBD looks like is taking the same route with constant content pumping, its starting to remind to TF2 or KoF early bloating.
Yeah, I think they are doing with teleport what they did to ranged attacks which is make a ton of different powers that do the same but in a diferent way, after Legion we got 9 out of 12 Killer who use ranged attacks: Plague, Demogorgon (uses himself as proyectile), Deathslinger, Pyramid, Twins (Victor is essentially a controlable hatchet), Trickster, Nemesis, Pinhead and Artist.
Now is teleporting turn, Hag teleports to traps, Freddy to gens, Demogorgon to desired locations, Sadako to fixed points in map, Dredge to lockers, I suppose we may get a Killer who teleports to Totems or to pallets in the future.
P.D. Some of those Killers werent in the "same but slightly different" because either their gimmicks really set them apart of overall they really play very diferent to others using similar powers, I do consider Dredge different than Sadako and Freddy since he has almost no CD on his power, the nightmare thing and the way you play him to not put it in the recycled list, its dressing really sets him apart, same as Twins, Blight or Demogorgon.
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They are gonna milk it for as long as they can
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I can't escape this movie.
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Which is why it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a few map chapters or even game health chapter every once in a while.
Still got some blatant killers lined up such as, FNAF, Candyman, Art who they can throw in whenever they like.
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at some point mechanics like hindered will be common, which is completely normal. in theory these killers seem similar but in gameplay it's impossible to say that pyramid head plays like huntress. in some chases yeah, but how are you ignoring the cages, and the fact that pyramid head cannot 3 gen like huntress does or camp from potentially infinite range? there are more to these killers, e.g. wesker can zone and double hit with the charge, i agree sadako is pretty trash and her one thing (mori) almost never happens, artist can consistently camp and pressure gens at the same time because the birds go forever and thru everything, etc.
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You must be 8'0 because that's some reaching right there. Play a game of Artist and then a game of Trapper and tell me how does Artist feels "rehashed". If we go by this logic every killer after Trapper is just a "rehash" of him.
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I think the business model this game has is pretty intelligent and unique for a pvp game, the constant mixture of new and licensed stuff getting added keeps people guessing and as long as they can keep getting licenses that can generate hype the game can go on indefinitely.
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Cause it’s more profitable to release new killers then to balance others.. it’s actually easier too.
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Is this existence?
EDIT: I see ... if the limit never approach anything, then it doesn't exist.
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Even though many recent killers have been reusing mechanics, most of them have presented a unique mechanic with them. The reason it was backed up with the reused mechanic is usually to avoid creating unbalanced power that will be too strong or too weak depending on the mechanic if it was the primary feature. Some new mechanics were simply utility mechanics that can't work on their own. Some mechanics were born as a twist to the pre-existing mechanic, yet remain unique nonetheless.
Plague introduced infection mechanic
Ghostface introduced reveal mechanic
Demogorgon was kinda reusing a little bit of everything, however Freddy's rework before him introduced teleport to an object mechanic.
Oni introduced a mechanic of a resource you could collect by attacking survivors and charge your main powerful ability
Deathslinger introduced reeling & spearing mechanics
Pyramid head introduced an alternative to hooks, built-in mori and an AOE attack.
Blight was reusing Billy's bump mechanic and put it upside down, making colliding with objects a thing Blight player would want for the most time which created a unique and fun power.
Twins introduced a whole new power that created a killer's minion the player could take control of. Plus it was the first killer whose power became 3 dimensional as pounce allowed Victor to jump high in the air. Twins also introduced incapacitated mechanic.
Trickster introduced a mechanic that supported hitting survivor more than 2 times without downing them which allowed his power to be balanced with throwing many small projectiles in a short amount of time.
Nemesis added AI zombies. Nuff` said.
Pinhead's power introduced chains that had to be manually removed and created a unique secondary objective survivors had to constantly follow to delay a stalling mechanic.
Artist reused older mechanics however combined them in a way that created a unique strategic gameplay pattern with huge possibilities that aren't available to the killers she borrowed the mechanics from.
Sadako was generally reusing mechanics, however she did a nice twist on them, sadly the combination of mechanics in her power and the numbers they were balanced with didn't create a powerful killer because of the mori mechanic that devs were too afraid to become op.
Dredge introduced Nightfall - the ability to hinder survivors' view of view creating confusion & reused obscure Spirit's / Nurse's addons that allow to return to your previous position in its own way which overall created a unique and interesting killer.
Wesker's movement seems to be similar to the Nurse, however no killer so far has been able to toss survivors, changing their location or to slam them into walls, dealing damage.
So I don't an issue overall. There's been very few killers who haven't really introduced anything completely new (and even the examples like Demogorgon or Artist are debatable because some of their mechanics like Shred or Crows that had to be dispelled can be arguably called new and unique too). Just because some of killer's kit remind of the other killer or if the killer is played in a similar way, doesn't mean the game is dying and devs have run out of creativity. It's true there's a limited amount of mechanics you can add, however it doesn't mean devs can't add a unique twist on them every time while supporting the reimagined mechanic with some new and unique addition that makes the character stand out.
If anything, I would prefer devs to reuse these new mechanics more than they do now, as of now it feels they're just jumping from one idea to another instead of experimenting with its different interpretation. For instance, Twins and Nemesis, one could have AI as a completely side part of the power, while the other would have the AI as a main part of it, while simultaneously being able to switch between who are they controlling or being able to give the AI simple commands like "attack anyone on sight / patrol the location / stay idle"
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I think the game is already at limit for survivors - they really only do cosmetics for the same handful over and over while the others get ignored and forgotten. David King even got 2 archive tomes while other characters still haven't had their first.
I think killers it's getting to the point of why bother adding new ones. Generally you see the same killers over and over anyway.
I'd rather they add new maps, make it so last realm the players visited they won't be sent to in next match (stop the back to back same realm), and make map offerings guarantee you won't go to a specific realm instead of increasing chances to go to that realm. With how often people play the same killers and both sides run the same perks the only thing left to change things up from match to match (since there aren't alternate game modes) is the maps.
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i would say 60 killers which will occur around dbd 2028. The main aspect that is approaching near over-saturation is survivor and killer perks. there are currently 213 total perks in dbd. If dbd continues to release perks for next 5 years. this number will double to 400+ perks. that is a lot of perks. I am not sure how dbd will manage for 400+ perks.
This is an extreme over-generalization of killers. I think your looking at these abilities as functional powers from bird eye view. I do not think developer look at killers in this sense. They look at killers as micro play-styles that eventually turn into macro survivor challenge.
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Exactly. Look at Smash Bros. Every new game announced, mass speculations about who's gonna be dropped. No, they said "Let's include everyone." More characters means more characters in each tier, but the key is "more characters" so it's more fun or everyone.
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Reworks don't earn revenue. New chapters mean sales. Basically, as long as the character in question functions, there's no reason to touch it. Really, they just proved no killer needs a buff except perhaps trapper.
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The problem with the gimmicks they bring is when they are pointless or barely used so whats left is the rehashed power, I dont ignore Pyramid Head cages, PH mains do, whenever I play against him I rarely see them using the cages and the few times they do almost always they would be better with a hook, Pyramid Head whole cage gimmick only real use is to get the Survivor punished, never cage them and then use the fast mori at third hook stage, same as Sadako condemn, Trickster main event, Nemesis zombies, those gimmicks dont really add that much to the gameplay to diferentiate them between other similar powers.
Unlike Demogorgon teleport+shred combination, Dredge nightmare, Plague infection mechanic and red vomit or Oni dashing, curving, orb absorbing thats the whole dressing thing setting them apart.
I already said in another post some were a bit of an exaggeration, especifically Artist.
Its not only the kit reminding me of something else, is the way they play thats heavily similar, thats why I didnt put Killers like Blight who even when they share the gotta-go-fast power with other 2 he has the bounce mechanic that sets him apart, with Hillbilly you dash around but you have to avoid obstacles, with Blight is the other way around, you have to actively collide with them, similar power but different enough gameplay.
Ghostface has a similar power to Myers but they dont use it the same way, with Ghostface you have to stay out of sight and stalk the same victim until you either 99% or mark it, Myers you have to sneak upon them, get super close, expose yourself and drain them as much as you can because he is as big as a truck, Ghostface cant 99% his power against a bad player and pop it against the god looper while Myers can, again, their powers are similar but they play different enough, thats what Akumaji said, the dressing, how they splice the gameplay to make similar things play entirely different. My main concern is lately a lot of Killer just feel samey while the ones who really feel different like Blight or Plague seem to be rarer.
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The limit is just after Chucky is added
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I don't think we're at that limit yet, but it might be a problem eventually.
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Yeah deathslinger is nothing like huntress, aside from he has ranged attacks. Considerably weaker mechanically, uses deepwound, doesnt have 5 shots but doesn't have to reload at lockers doesn't instadown on hit but easier to hit with, harder to dodge, no windup.
Easy to make generalisations about killers being the same but they differ enough mechanically so that they are unique.
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Long as it doesn't turn out as overwatch 2, but I think at any point we're ready for a DBD2 announcement. So anytime basically.
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I play both (or used to) for me they play very similar, you see someone, aim and shoot, if you miss you raise your hand/reload try again (reloading is a bit slower than reraising the hatchet), main differences were range and after a hit with DS the Survivor restarted the chase at mele range unlike Huntress where the Survivor restarted where he was hit, the whole reloading from lockers and reloading the gun while different leads to the exact same outcome, if you miss enough with Huntress you have to reload you lose the chase and probably a gen or two, if you miss that many times with DS is the same, you pretty much lost the chase and a gen or two.
Deep wounds is pointless on DS, its main function is to spread damage and stall by mending but spreading with him is the best way of losing a match, his enormous lack of mobility and pressure and the whole reeling thing taking enough time to make him not the fastest at downing either.
For me those slight differences dont make them different enough to make Deathslinger stand out from Huntress like Blight stands out from Hillbilly.
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Agree to disagree then. They have similarities but they certainly stand out enough from each other for me.
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It cant continue indefinitely, there are already an absurd number of perks and addons to have to understand if you want to use or counterplay them. It makes the cost of entry for new players pretty insane too and it locks them out of challenges etc that require specific perks/survivors/killers they probably wont own
It would seem they realise this as they are monetising the game in various ways, some not so popular ways too.
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They backed themselves into a corner with the 4 chapters per year format.
Now they can't release any fewer killers/survivors than that or face the wrath of the shareholders.
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Well, the way they play is also not similar.
Oni's and Billy's only similarity is that they both can do a cross map dash into an unsuspecting survivors leading to an instadown.
Otherwise they are played very differently. For example, Oni can do "hug techs" in the loops because he doesn't stop his rush when colliding with objects, only if he interrupts it himself or does an attack, while Billy has to pull off curves by using his increased turn rate at the start of the sprint.
Oni has to earn his ability and then he has a window during which he is free to use it however he can, while Hillbilly has to manage overheat.
Gimmicks also do much more than you've said. Good Pyramid Heads utilize cages to counter grasp saves or to, sadly, tunnel out people by hooking them -> caging -> hooking again or pulling off basekit mori. While we're on a subject of pyramid head, literally all of them use his rites of judgement to make trails that are very unique thing to face, tbh.
Zombies don't add too much to the gameplay, maybe, but they still create an interesting dynamic between killer and survivors as they are 2 additional enemies survivors have to pay attention to. Zombie jumpscares or teamwork with Nemesis is something that's been clipped a lot and people seem to enjoy it.
Trickster's main event is not his gimmick, his gimmick is the way his power functions with injuring survivors.
Sadako doesn't really have that many gimmicks, she really just completely reuses different parts of other killer's kits, but makes it look cool. TVs are just better (kinda) Freddy's teleport, her demanifestation is basically Old freddy but reversed + improved spirit's passive phasing.
Tbh, I see no issue that killers are being designed that way, I just wish BHVR kept improving these new gimmick mechanics so that they have a chance to shine more as a bigger aspects of killers' powers.
As for reusing "same" teleports and 3 antiloop mechanics, I also don't see a big issue. There's a limited amount of mechanics that do actually work well against same means of survivors' reliable defence from the killer or allow killer to have better presence on the map, so it's natural these would be the most reused.
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