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Forced hook trade is too strong
Killers still get too much value from camping. Allies are forced to trade being hooked which is basically 2 free hits for the killer. Please give survivors some way to counter this.
Comments
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Do gens.
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They should just make camping more skill-based if that is even possible, so that bad killers can't benefit from it but good killers can.
That will solve a great many problems, like bad killers skipping the whole chasing part of the game.
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Doing gens was alread pre 6.1 still not rewarding enough for Survivors, especially solo Q. Most Killers were also running noed and no way out to secure easy 2k.
After 6.1 with increased gen times but still same hook times its even more rewarding for killers to camp hooks
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I didn't realize survivors can start out on a hook.
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If all you need to chase is one and they go down in 10 secs, it is almost as if they started on hook, isn't it?😁 Especially if they're facecamping afterwards.
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The technic is... try with another teammate, it's very hard in solo Q, but when you go with an another player for rescuing the hooked teammates
Flashlight, flashbang, attract the killer near a pallet or a loop tiles, a lot of thing can help you, with some training
It's survivor here, so, practice is the key to be good
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If I can be blunt, it sounds like you want this game to make camping 100% beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt, impossible. To not only make camping harder, but to remove the ability to do so completely. Obviously, I'm not a dev, but I'd still bet my life that this is simply NEVER going to happen.
Killers lose points if they camp, and there are several perks designed from the ground up to help with camping, such as DS, BT, Off The Record, Reassurance, and others still. And I'll bet there will be more anti camping perks and base kit changes in the future.
With all that said, if a killer wants to camp, they'll camp, While it sucks when it happens to a survivor, it will always be a viable strategy in DBD, and its never going away
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Reassurance buys you almost a full gen time.
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I played solo q survivor against Oni earlier today. He camped endgame (without his power). He was camping for a grab so I went for the unhook while a Steve bodyblocked for me. We survived.
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One of the best solution to unhook a survivor who was camped is... Going with an another player, and try to rescue the hooked survivor
It's hard, that was something that demand skill, you can go with a flashlight, flashbang, try to attract the killer near a loop tiles or a pallet, just enough for the second to save your teammates
Like all thing in the survivor side... You have to gain some technic, some skill to do that
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Why not go a step further and address the efficiency shift that happens with each person down or out? It would actually fix things for both sides instead of just focusing on one.
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Did you know you can still win hook trading... you have 8 hook stages to go through before anyone dies that's plenty of time to finish all gens.
Plus you have perks that can make survivors stay on hook longer so if it's that common try one of these and the above trading tactic.
Cant expect to win if you're all just running in circles near the hooked player or watching them camp someone... and its really annoying being the camped player watching your team throw and do nothing, talk about making their death in vain
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Yes, do gens and maybe 1 survivor can escape
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For sure. One of the biggest issues I see is players not knowing (or at least internalizing) how much time they have to work with. Each hook state is a minute, saves don't have to (and should not) be made immediately. Keep working on that gen, give the killer a reason (and chance) to leave.
If the killer simply won't leave, punish them for it as best you can. And the surv on the hook has to be willing to sit there and let this all play out.
Yeah, hook trades aren't ideal, but they don't have to made every 10-15 seconds.
The most common and egregious survivor throw is when people rush in for the save, and you're right, it is exasperating to watch (and hilarious when they then blame it on "camping").
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Meaning? Is it the same thing going down in end-game with going down 10 secs in and getting camped? I'm really confused what your point is. You can also usually guess in end-game they're gonna camp and know what to do. You don't always know early on in soloq that you're dealing with a camper and then one survivor goes in and either is wasting their own time trying to save, trading hooks (at best), getting hit and leaving or at worst getting downed or grabbed.
I've also managed to get saves that way in end game, when somehow all teammates share a braincell at that exact moment, but you can't know at the start of the match.
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DS, BT, Off the Record are anti-tunneling perks not anti-camping.
Reassurance and Kinship are anti-camping I guess and there's an argument to be made about Reassurance being behind a paywall.
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Care to elaborate please?
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Survivors are far too strong/efficient at 4 people, and slightly too weak/inefficient at 3, then it cascades and becomes damn near unwinnable at 2 and 1. Their objective is far too focused on strength in numbers (which makes sense) but that knowledge also emphasizes the importance of minimizing that advantage as fast as possible (which also makes sense.) In other words, survivors need to be weaker at 4, but lose less strength at 3 and less to offset their efficiency cap that is imposed by losing numbers.
Think of the EGC timer, and how it slows down as people are down or hooked. That type of scaling is done because the point of the mechanic is to speed up the resolution of the game, but the concession against its speed is presented to make said factor have less of an impact on the viability of late game saves. It prioritizes "wrapping things up," but weakens that time limits impact as an advantage for the killer. It was a good design choice that was done to address the root of an issue (in that case, before it even was presented) and reduce an inherent advantage from getting out of control for one side in certain situations.
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My apologies, but could you clarify what you mean by "address the efficiency shift that happens with each person down or out"?
It sounds like you're talking about somehow either improving survivor efficiency when team-mates go down/out or reducing killer efficiency in that situation and that sounds terrible for the killer - survivors are strongest at the start of the game when it's 4v1 and to make things harder for the killer the more people he takes out removes one of the killer's only ways of dealing with the asymmetry of the game.
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and let survivors die on hook amazing response. really amazing.
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Lol, did u at least research anything before comenting? reassurance gives u 30 secs, a gen takes 90 i dont know how 30 seconds is almost 90. maybe math wasnt your best subject at school, and i was terrible at math
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Tbf, when I nowadays get hit by a DS I got confused what's going on and why someone is wasting a perk slot in such a way and then continue the chase just mildly inconvenient, often ending it 10s later. Back in the days I was more conscience which survivor got unhooked recently and even had an eye in the desktop (the real life one) clock, now I just down and hook whomever I happen to stumble about.
I 100% support the "make DS great again, just not in EGC" movement.
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I am, but I am also talking about capping the 4 as much as improving the 3/2/1. Thats why it needs to be an approach that honestly considers the way the situation impacts both sides, as 3 gens being done <90 seconds into the match is just as important as 2 survivors finding it impossible to beat a 3 gen. The extremes need to be put in check and normalized more than having simple +/- factors thrown at them constantly, as the real issue goes all the way down to problems in root design.
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DS resets deep wounds and gives you a chance to extend the chase if you go down (on purpose) close enough to a position that can reset the chase itself. anyone who uses it for anything other than that is just flat out using it wrong with its current iteration, unfortunately.
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His proposal probably means survivor nerfs early and killer nerfs late. There should probably still be an advantage to either side respectively in those periods of time but it is extremely stark in worst case scenarios on either side(all 4 survivors alive most of the game and also someone dying/dcing at the start/early)
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Deadlock is typing...
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Well its a good thing up to 7 gens (in that case 3-6) can be progressed simultaneously then, and that it also both does not provide and even blocks regression for its duration.
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Yeah, I could definitely see some rebalancing at both ends, just the implication of "killing off survivors should grant no advantage to killer" seemed way off. Makes sense.
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Exactly. Its another one of those issues where not putting even considerations into both sides or inacting one while half-assing the other would cause more harm than good, but its one of those types of issues that would fix a lot of problems in the process if addressed properly. The game is balanced by averages instead of proper design in far too many instances.
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Ok but this goes back to the usual question. If survivors get weaker because SWF is too strong, where does that leave solo survivor again?
I play solo so I am coming at it from that angle. For me it's simply frustrating when a killer can do the bare minimum because they got a down early (depending on the time of the day it is almost guaranteed I get at least one person who is playing a beginner survivor with no prestige) by coming across or intentionally go after (I can't really know) the baby. Ok that's fair, but if they decide to camp them it is even more frustrating. Because in solo you cannot co-ordinate that and especially at the start if no one has Kindred. And say I leave my gen to go save. Ok now I just wasted time and the whole counter of "just do gens" came crumbling down. What if another person came for the save? Now two people aren't doing gens.
Say I try to unhook, killer hits me and then I unhook anyway so we trade. Well now no one guarantess me I will play the game first of all and second of all, the killer has just skipped the part where he is weakest at, which is chasing by playing this way and getting away with 1K most of the time guaranteed and maybe even more by doing the bare meanimum. It seems to me it's the equivalent of that teammate who hides all game and somehow escapes at the end, by finding hatch. Both are the bare minimum.
Ok so what about the killers who know this is the efficient play, either camping or tunneling (camping isn't always efficient if you wanna win, but against solo it is a pretty strong strategy). How are they prepared then to face against stronger survivors if they never had to develop their other skills and game sense? I wasn't playing when old Dead Hard was around, I joined just around the time that patch which nerfed it dropped. When I read posts in those forums and on reddit people claim old DH boosted survivors, can't the same be said for Killers camping then? Why is one considered unhealthy and the other just a strategy?
I'm not against it being a thing, it's that currently it's very low effort from the Killer's side especially if that's the playstyle they are going intentionally. Whenever I come across new killers, that's their instinct as well, it's intuitive. Sometimes they do get panicky though if they hear gens popping. I just find it unfair and silly, that as a survivor to survive you need to have a number of skills developed to survive, looping, be able to do gens, not 3-genning yourself, know how to counter killers. But killer you can just catch the weakest and skip looping or even gen pressure and still come out with 3k or more, which again is more common in solo and it thrives because of the lack of co-ordination.
I agree that maybe 3 remaining survivors or 2 should not be so power-creeped, but I dunno how that would get fixed and how weakening 4 survivors would affect solo.
Sorry for my rant, I just don't think under any circumstances a killer under 100 hours should be able to beat survivors who have collectively 500h or more etc. But the reality of the situation is that one weak link for survivors is more often than not a death sentence.
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I don't disagree, I also wanted to add that DS these days isn't even that strong but I simply proceeded to correct them.
Basekit BT is a lot more useful than DS probably (I don't run it).
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How is hook trading and doing gens not the correct response to a 'down one then camp' Killer if you want a 3E or 4E? What kills survivors in that scenario is the hiding in bushes by the hook or the unhooking too soon.
Go do gens, when a full hook stage is almost expended hook trade, repeat, have 3 to 4 survivors make it through the exit gate. If a Killer is staying by the hook, you punish them by doing gens.
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Yup. If survivors time hook trades so they happen bet right before the next hook state, the killer won't be able to get a kill before all gens are done. Survivors would have to take longer than 8 minutes for that to result in a kill.
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I think you entirely missed the point of my observation as well as my approach to resolving it. It would actually benefit solos because they would be considerably less hurt by people ragequitting or dying early. Its designed specifically to address the "burst window" of early game progress for either side, while simultaneously addressing the importance of said impact on the rest of the match. You went into specific situations that are all circumstances to how flawed the root of the issue is, when the proposed approach addresses those as well from a top-down perspective. The wide variable of "gen speeds" needs to be normalized before it can be balanced around, instead of balancing around an average and hoping neither side takes advantage of stacking the odds in their favor. And that doesn't mean they need to be slower across the board, but rather that their potential in either direction needs to be reactive to the circumstances of the match.
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Reassurance gives you 30 seconds on top of the 60 seconds per hook state. 90 seconds.
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so again as i said to other guy, implying people should literally let people die on hook first hook amazing response once again.
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Maybe reading wasn't your strongest subject also...I said ALMOST a full gen. 30 seconds at the first stage and then another 30 for second stage. That is 60 seconds total. 60 is more than half of 90. I don't know why I'm explaining this to you since you probably can't understand this.
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There are other gens that can all be worked on at one time by the other survivors. Dead lock only applies to 1 gen so even if the most done gen is blocked the others are able to pop.
This action...punishes camping even with dead lock. Altruism is the real killer.
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"Sorry for my rant, I just don't think under any circumstances a killer under 100 hours should be able to beat survivors who have collectively 500h or more etc. But the reality of the situation is that one weak link for survivors is more often than not a death sentence."
Maybe you just didn't put enough thought into the numbers, but it really doesn't work like that. There is really no appreciable difference between a player with 125 hours (1/4th of 500) and a player with 100 hours. It should be pretty much almost an even game.
Likewise, if you have a team with 5300 collective hours, vs me with 700 hours, if that team is one survivor with 5k hours and three others with 100 hours each, I'm probably taking home at least the 3k win in 90% of my games against them.
The point being that it is down to what the individual composition of that team is like, and that a 25% advantage in hours on an individual player basis is not enough for some great revelation in the game to provide a sheer overwhelming advantage in a balanced game.
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Ok. I'll communicate to my solo queue teammates that we're foregoing the save and focusing gens. Wait...
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This. I’m the one who usually tries to body block for the unhooker so he/she doesn’t have to trade. It’s such a good feeling taking a protection hit for them, then they loop the killer for a full gen or more.
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a lot of survivor disconnect/rage quit if you leave them off hook. Sometimes survivor disconnect just for going down. its really crazy. the perk that was suppose fix hook trading and camping was reassurance but they weakened the perk before it went live.
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It's difficult, but oh boy, it's ######### satisfying to rescue in this case, when you can be coordinate with the other player
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Then its a cannibal or any other insta down killer
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It is harder but possible to save from a Bubba. I have had 4Es against camping Bubbas before. Don't complain about a proven tactic to get a 3E or 4E against a camping Killer; complain that the skill floor to counter camping is a lot higher than the skill floor to actually camp. That's a more accurate statement.
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To be honest I was initially going to type down 1000 hours collectively. So that would mean that each survivor probably has double the hours of the killer, if they are equally distributed.
Still, if it's unevenly with a survivor at 500 hours, another one at 300 and the last two 100 each, it still feels iffy to me if it's that easy for the killer to win. Maybe one day it'll make sense.
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The survivors can escape this situation, but trying to kobe and if they fail join a new game asap. As we have seen the last few weeks, this really compromises the integrity of the game. So now the Dev's have a choice to face, sit on the sidelines and watch match after match turn to dogshit when someone suicides out of the game, or maybe....fix this UNFUN mechanic.
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As others have said, do gens. Yes, it's an unfun playstyle, but if you trade smartly, you'll probably get a 4 out.
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Hmm I think I am mostly concerned with end game camp...do killers really need such a strong recourse when they played so badly in every aspect of the game? If you play to camp you are pretty pathetic anyways and why are you in this conversation anyways. With so many resources - bloodlust, 1 shot downs, gap closers, slows, thanataphobia, scourge hook pain resonance, jolt, nerf to nearly all the best solo q perks of survivors, what more do you need? And then you say you need to camp? I shouldn't have to team up with some other person to win. I get that it's a team game, but I shouldn't have to be forced to correspond with anyone to win. People who justify camping basically are probably the same privileged loser in life saying, "I deserve at least 1 kill" moaning that they should have an even easier time winning. Then you have the nerve to say gg at the end of the game because you abuse the simplest game mechanic. GTFO here. Meanwhile, survivors have to play nearly a perfect way. Yes, I agree, do the gens....no ######### sherlock. And the only way that actually gets done is if everyone solo staggers gens. Oh, but wait, that's an even more reason for killers to camp. What do survivors get? We need to perfectly time a pallet, we need to perfectly time a dh, we need to perfectly time a ds, we need to perfectly stagger gens, we need to perfectly time the flashlight save, we need to perfectly loop to get value for pallets. I can go on about the skill level that is required to be a good survivor vs the easy skill level to camp.
Answer the question: Why do you deserve a free kill by camping in the end game?
Again I hear some stupid logics like use reassurance...can you please read? What does that have to do with my post of trade hooks? Why do killers deserve a mechanic to be able to get free hooks?
Trade smartly? The queue is basically programmed against survivors. I don't know if you remember, but queues are matched up so that killers get a chance by facing a balance of noobs and skilled players. The killers easily find the noobs and it's basically 2v1 end game. All that's left is to camp.
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They need to remove unhook grabs. Too many times have I seen the Killer just sit at the hook and wait for another Survivor to come save. They're not really even playing the game at that point - just abusing the system. It needs to change.
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