My Ideas For Fixing Toxicity
These are just my ideas and they could suck, honestly. I'd like to hear what you guys think in the comments, and your suggestions.
For body blocking I was thinking that survivors with crows could have no collision, at least not for other survivors. If a teammate tries to trap you, you can walk through them eventually.
As for slugging, this isn't honestly toxic unless it's done out of spite. Most sluggers leave people slugged to snowball, or they genuinely can't find the slugs. I think that if after some time of being slugged maybe base kit Deer Stalker could show the slug's aura so the killer can find them, and I think that would fix most of the slugging. If you really wanted to make it so that slugging out of genuine spite didn't happen then after the survivors aura has been shown for long enough, and the rest of the team is dead, or slugged, then perhaps they could be provided with base kit unbreakable. Another thing is I do think soul guard could use a buff, so if that were more common that could also play a role.
As for Leatherface, keep Bubba the way he is. He is perfectly memeable and iconic, ESPECIALLY after the prestige rework I mean can you imagine going against a face camping/basement Bubba who is a high prestige or even prestige 100? That's freaking hilarious and I love it. I think if he can't use his chainsaw close to the hook people will just be rewarded for staying near the hook with the killer which is obviously a bad move. It's also unfair as there would be safe spots all over the map, and if there wasn't that wouldn't fix the problem because Bubba would just face camp slightly further away than usual. It's not like camping isn't easily countered, more on camping further down.
When it comes to survivors unhooking themselves there are only a few situations where this should ever be attempted.
*Everyone is slugged/hooked
*The last person is in chase
*There is Deliverance
*You're trying to give away hatch, or signal the killer is camping and to just leave.
*Everyone is too far away, and you'll hit second stage anyways.
With so many completely valid, yet less common situations it can be hard to decide when unhooking one's self should be an option, but what we have right now just isn't working. Every other game, or depending on the day more games than not someone rage quits on hook. I'd argue it's more helpful to take away the unhook yourself option than to leave it there even for the situations you sometimes find yourself in. Here's my idea, take away the option to unhook yourself unless you have Deliverance, or there's one person standing. I'm not gonna bring slippery meat into the conversation bc it should obviously be removed, or reworked.
To fix some issues with camping, as I said camping should be an option, it's a real strategy even if it's a meme, but the camped survivor shouldn't be punished. The best way to counter camping is to simply do gens, and with reassurance it's even more easy to counter, so survivors who spend enough time on hook shouldn't be punished, especially since the game can tell the killer's proximity to the hook. Really, it's not their fault if they're being camped, and if it's a 1 hit down killer it's not the team's fault for not trading hooks, and even if it is in some cases it's still not the hooked person's fault specifically. My suggestion is if a survivor stays on hook for as long as possible, or as long as they can, their grade progress should be paused (or if they did enough during the game they should make progress). This also fixes part of the issue of the team not going for save simply bc they made bad plays, now the hooked person did everything right and it's their team who now has a 3V1. If the killer is camping (hook proximity) the camped survivor should be awarded with BP for occupying the killer's time.
I think we could appreciate a spectator mode after every game where you can view it from other player's perspective. This would really help people who think they may have gone against a cheater but aren't sure, or see if someone was working with the killer, or at least see things from the killer's POV bc I've had games with cheaters where I didn't even know they were cheating bc I was off doing gens but I was told after by the killer they were 100% cheating. I and many others have had games against cheaters and their team didn't even know. I've also had lots of issues with the last survivor working with the killer to sandbag me, I think maybe this would discourage that.
So again, what do you guys think? Do you have better suggestions? Please share your thoughts and ideas in the comments! :D
Comments
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I think they should nerf pig itd fix the toxicity of the game
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For bodyblocking survivors, it's a good idea to remove collision
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Everyone has different ideas of what's toxic.
I dont have an issue with tunneling or camping, as it has it needs, but 70% of survs think standing around in the exit gate being flogs is fine.
So for me i'd start by banning people who think that's fine, and those survs who rage d/c ban them as well.
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Meh, I didn't wanna make it a manner of banning (unless its clearly breaking ToS, like working with the killer or cheating), mostly just reducing the issues, or making them easier to go against.
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But is us as consumers who define what should be in a ToS. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
We don't tolerate racism in dbd as it causes issues, but we tolerate bullying.
Does intentional disconnection not help the killer? would it not be classed as working with the killer as you know you've made it easier for the killer "to win"
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I think it's useful to separate "toxic behavior" and "toxic tactics".
Tactics = a killer tunneling and survivors coordinated body blocking.
Behavior = teabagging at the gates, flashlight clickspam, etc.
The toxic tactics are a product of poor game design and probably can't be fixed without dramatic redesigning of the game. It's possible, but it would involve coding that the devs either can't or won't do. For example, it would be rather simple conceptually to check whether or not the person being struck by a killer is A) between the killer and a different wounded player AND B) within X distance of both the killer and wounded player AND THEN in that case make the damage count for 2 hits and an instant down. Something like this would solve body blocking because instead of just "getting in the way" which is stupid you would have to actually sacrifice yourself (which is more logical, and would make it rare and strategic). Nobody has to agree with this. It will never happen anyway. It's just an example of the kind of balance/thinking that it would take to actually improve "Toxic tactics".
TOXIC BEHAVIOR imho is made 1000% worse because it only goes one direction. There is no way for a killer to teabag or "answer back" when someone is bullying them. Anyone with any real life experience knows that when a bully is left free to act without push back, they don't get bored, they push further and further. Individually it increases and collectively it increases. Meanwhile, the target of the behavior just takes ever increasing abuse.
Why can't killers crouch? If you're crouching you're not chasing. So how would that be unbalanced? It's almost as if this toxic us-vs-them (as people, not characters) was desired by the devs in the way they made the game.
Few people would suggest a company ban people for teabagging, and anyone with gaming experience would know that people rarely get banned for anything in games no matter what the rules are....But this is the only game I've ever played where my opponent has a full range of EXPRESSIVE tools to communicate with me and I have none whatsoever to communicate back. And that is a big part of the overall toxicity.
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I also hate when survivors just hang out at the exit gate. But I do understand sometimes. If I am in solo queue and there are others in the trial still unless you know they are safe you kinda want to stay to be able to take a hit if they need it. But thats not always the case. One of my favorite moments as killer was when I was running Nemesis/Rancor as Sadako and even after I killed one of the other survivors with Rancor and seeing in the game the obsession change the Cheryl decided to blind me in a very unsafe part of the exit gate. That was one of my favorite Moris.
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Define bullying? I've tea bagged at the gates as playful banter, but I'd never dogpile someone in end game chat and call them trash. In fact, when killers express that they were hurt (usually not even by that specifically), I try to relate to them and assure them. I've also been tunneled and camped, I don't complain about it, my post was mostly just talking about how players can't help being camped so they shouldn't be punished, but I said it's a valid strategy.
Just bc it's toxic doesn't mean we should strive for it to be banned. We shouldn't make these things a ToS violation, and it's good we don't, bc I honestly think 90% of gamers in general would be banned and all video games would lose their more competitive funny side. We're not children, it's not a kid's game, we can handle stupid games of chicken and butt dances at the exit gate, and if we can't, it was the game, we were stressed, maybe something is happening irl, but then we should take a step back and calm down, not stop the immature behaviour.
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Again it's in the eye of the beholder, you might not define it as bullying but others might, many people have self harmed over bullying.
This is a famous case in Australia of a 15 year old girl who ultimately killed herself over cyber bullying.
Again you might it see it as playful banter but for others it can be much more.
Why is toxic behavior acceptable but not casual racism or various phobias? It once was acceptable to do so but not now, but yet we tolerate a certain amount of "banter" because its "fun" for certain people, again just because its in a game doesn't mean it has real world affects.
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It says she likely suffered from mental illness. No one in their right mind would DIE over being BMed in a video game. I am actually someone with severe depression. It's often easier to blame video games than it is to look at oneself and say "maybe I as a parent missed the signs that my kid was in this horrible place." This can't be subjective, no one deserves to be held accountable for someone else's actions when all they did was play a video game and do stupid animations. People actually use SH and death as a ways to manipulate others, and we don't need to add validity to that. It just can't be subjective. It may even make people who already feel that way think it's a way to get back at others, which is very dangerous for everyone involved. If someone can't handle online gaming, that's their responsibility. We can't turn the world into a safe space where no one has to deal with their problems and triggers.
Now you may have an argument for various forms of harassment, but you just can't compare acting immature in a game to insulting the player themselves in an end game chat. Playing and acting in a toxic way just isn't comparable to using verbal insults. Like if I mori someone am I telling them I wish they were dead? Ofc not. Same with tea bagging, and clicking, and hitting people on hook.
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sure. You play killer. Standing in a single spot waiting for your 4k without any effort sure is not toxic to you. Yet helping other teammates by buying them time in exit gate is 100% toxic. So much hypocrisy.
sure. Let's define facecamp bubba or any other insta-killer as ToS. You don't play the game. You prevent other players to play the game. Sounds toxic to me ;)
Oh you are so mistaken. Head nodding and hitting on the hook are evergreen classics in toxic behavior. There are more specific stuff that depends on killer (like some killers actually can t-bag, bubba can M2 you on a hook etc), but the point is - both sides can and ARE toxic towards each other.
About your "toxic tactics" - what is toxic in trying to help fellow survivor that is being "toxic tactics" tunneled to death by trying to take hit for him? First of it's killer who decided to abuse easy/cheap stuff and all that the other survivors can do is to get injured/downed just to prolong his misfortune. It sounds way more that toxic tactics are mainly things that killer can do. Sure you can take 4 BNP's and genrush the hack out of killer, but how often do we see this and how often do we see (face)camp/tunnel? I can tell you that 4 BNP's is very rare. For tunnel it's more then 50% of games. Camping (if we include proxy) is even more.
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I like bodyblocking (if this thing is very rare - you basically screw your team over just by DC. Nothing more is required) and even deerstalker/unbreakable stuff.
For Bubba - sorry but I find it boring as hell. You can't really even stop watching a game and play youtube, because somebody might rescue you and you need to run immediatelly. Also you need to hit skillchecks in 2nd stage. And yet there are very strong odds that you are trying for nothing. Facecamp bubba begs you to go afk or suicide. It's only on you to resist the temptation. Very boring and very unfun. Also the solution to your deadzones. If you are in chase, depletion of your charges should not happen. Voala, there are no real deadzones now. You either camp so you are not in chase (or you are in a chase so it's screw up on survivor's side), or you do camp and your charges should go down after some time (say after 10 seconds). Also if this works in 16m radius and bubba waits just outside it, then you HAVE a chance to unhook that survivor as opposed to current situation.
For unhooks - sure thing. But it's another survivor nerf because you take away legitimate use cases (even if they are a bit more rare). So compensation buff should happen somewhere.
For camping - saving my emblems means nothing to me. All I see is that I am prevented to play the game. I can understand it to a degree when it makes sense - like killer leaving the hook and no survivor going for rescue in this time window and then go secure the stage for last 10 seconds. This is 100% valid and I have no beef with this. I can even understand camping in 3gen and endgame camping does not exist in my eyes. It's still boring to be camped, but I understand the legitimate use. What I don't understand are killers that feel the need to camp AND tunnel at 5 gens - which is quite common these days. It spoils the game. It pads killer wins and many killers feel they HAVE TO do that, because they never learned to chase because of such camping/tunneling and now they face survivors with much more skill then they have.
Spectator mode would be really nice, but as far as I know it's not possible. Design decisions of the game prevent this. This feature (specifically to be able to replay your own games - which is technically the same thing you want) was proposed many times before and the answer was that it would be way too hard to do now.
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So we can add Bubba's masks then right?
If you're all at the exit gate what time is that buying? apart from just being annoying or insulting?
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3 survivors at 1 exit gate. 4th being injured. What can the 4th do? If he has means to heal himself, he can try to do that (time consuming). If he has not, then he can try to run to the other one and open this second gate (also time consuming). If 3 survivors at exit gate just leave, there's a good chance 4th one will not make it. If they stay at the exit line, wait to be pushed out (or ignored so they can heal themselves and take hits for the last one), they will buy 2.7s for each hit this takes. This gives quite some time to last survivor to also be able to escape.
Sure it's common that some survivors are just being mean and they don't need it because everyone is at the exit gate (still this does not need to be just to BM killer - maybe they want some extra free chase points for both BP and emblem. E.g. I remember I have lost a whole pip for not doing this). I am not advocating for tbagging at exit gates. Makes no sense if killer played fair. Sure many people do this. But it does not take away the example I already provided.
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Again im specifying when survs have no reason to remain in the trial and they do it just to bad mouth.
It's just toxic behaviour. There's no reason for it, or a reason why the developers condone it. Again the standard we walk past is the standard we accept. They wil remove Masks because they were used in a racist way, but accept t bagging as fine.
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Sure thing. If all 4 are at the exit gates and tbagging, they are doing it just to make killer mad. No argument there. Same as killer hitting someone at hook if next closest survivor is more then 10m away - there is 0 chance he missed something. It's purely to BM.
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Actually exactly this happened to me last game. After 1 successful sabo play (regular play trying to just rescue teammate. No tbags, nothing. I went immediatelly after dropping survivor far away to not get downed) - I got downed and huntress refused to go anywhere from the hook - just facecamp and hit me on a hook.
What I am trying to say - both sides have their toxic behavior. It would make sense to remove both of them whenever possible.
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the only toxic thing anybody would do is to go to the killer/ surv profile and typing hateful slurs, THATS toxic. other than that i see no problem at flashlight clicking teabagging camping blah blah you name it
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Everything is a choice... a choice that players make (made)
So how does BHVR balance this game around limiting choices while expanding others
It's us as players that need to stop... the game can't force us to do it
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Camping and tunneling is NON ISSUE if other players immediately rush the hook. Which is what happens 99.999% of the time.
For a killer to not be accused of camping/tunneling they would have to actively ignore and give a free pass to the players literally rushing to the hook often before the first survivor is even placed on it.
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I see that happen about 5% of times. It does happen, but very rarely. Usually survivors in my games get unhook any time between 20-50 sec after being on hook. Insta unhook does NOT happens 99.999%. What happens in every other game is, that killer camps. Meaning he will stay in proximity of hook until 1 of 2 things happen. A, survivor gets unhooked - there is high chance killer will now decide to tunnel. Not always. Some killers only camp. Some only tunnel. But those that camp will probably also tunel. B, survivor dies on hook.
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You reply like you're a killer, but it's obvious by all your posts you're a survivor as everything you write is just defending their behavior. So I'm not sure why you would feel qualified to say it happens 5% of the time. It's just not logical. Because unless you're playing with a coordinated group you can't speak about what the rest of the groups are always doing. SOMEONE is rushing the freaking hook. If you are playing with a coordinated group of friends, then you're experience is with them and not with the larger playerbase.
You think that players only rush hooks 5% of the time....but there is a "HigH cHanCE" killers will camp and tunnel? Come on man. Give me a break.
Anyway, you're wrong. 95% of the time. Not 5%. Nuff said.
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watchmeleavewatchmeleavewatchmeleavewatchmeleave
Hey, think of it as a survivor slugging you. :)
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If you are part of game, you see what happens to you or to person near you (especially because HUD exists). I play solo and swf. I obviously don't count swf as they know better then to farm me (yes, even with basekit BT, what you are saying is farming survivor). And yes it still happens in my solo games... But it's like 1 in 20 games. So 5%. And maybe it happens more in a game that I am in, but it would mean a few things - a, I am preocupied to watch the hud (so probably in chase - meaning it's save to unhook as obviously I will not loop next to hooked person) b, it does not happen immediatelly - meaning killer is camper. In this case there is no helping it anyway. Like it would still make sense to use most of camping time on gens, but... Nobody plays perfect.
But maybe you are in a different skill group and these things happen to you. It's just that they don't happen to me often. Certainly not 99.999%. it's not even close
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I see what you mean but, in DBD you already spend the game not doing much on gens, you're in chase, or maybe you're looking for a hex but otherwise it's mostly wasting time. It's not much different just spending a minute on hook being camped, and another minute hitting skill checks while being camped. Since camping may be boring, but it's so easy to counter, I think it's kind of a non issue.
As for the unhook yourself option, I agree, but I think it may still do less harm just to remove the option unless there's Deliverance, or one person standing. People give up on hook far, far too often at this rate. If you disagree, I totally understand but I still think it may be the lesser bad.
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I mean tbh, the community seems mixed on Bubba's masks. The main issue was streamers were complaining about being camped and then they got attacked in their community. Bhvr isn't responsible for what happens on Twitch, or Discord. It seemed like a controversy Bhvr just didn't wanna deal with so they removed the masks altogether. Using the mask didn't make people racist, it was the harassment that followed that became an issue.
I sometimes wait at the gates to say bye, especially if the killer did badly, or was friendly, so I like leaving items for them. Sometimes I wanna farm protection hits, other times I think it's fun to be pushed out. I don't think you understand how online gaming works, if you make a big deal about it or get offended people think that's even more funny, and at the end of the day they're not to blame for being immature, it's the person who's sensitive enough to get salty about it. It's smart to take a break when games get too frustrating or stressful, but you can't control what people do, only how you react.
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Oh i fully understand how online gaming works, been doing it since windows 95 and 56k modems playng Age of empires 1 and counterstrike in '99
I also understand how much the gaming community has changed in 20 years.
And if it's my reaction that is "salty" then we won't be needing chat filters or anything like that then, people can just stop being sensitive right?
Slugging has it's purposes some of the time, survivors standing in a gate with nothing to achieve does not, other than being flogs.
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I play a ton of games and most of them don't have the same PC culture as DBD, and even then, it's only a minority of the player base. If anything's changed, things are likely more toxic. People like getting a rise out of others, and being immature, and competitive banter, and overall fooling around. The best thing you can do is play along. It's much better to say "gg" and be a good sport than go online and be sensitive and salty about it. Rule 1 of the internet, don't feed the trolls.
And yeah... The DBD chat filter is comparable to the things I've seen in kid's games, not M rated games. It censors things like perks, character names, spelling mistakes. It's annoying. Be careful this is the same company that asked in a satisfaction survey if they should take away end game chat and have stickers instead. Did the player base want that? No. They got annoyed that they were being treated like children. The playful majority shouldn't suffer for the sensitive minority that can't handle gaming/internet culture.
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Once i've got my rank this month ill just play along as be as equally toxic this month. Face camping Bubba time.
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Sounds good. Face camping Bubba is iconic. Realistically, tea baggers shouldn't complain about tunneling/camping, after all, It's all fair game. Face camping Bubba is only good for the memes tho, as I said in the original post the best counter is doing gens. The best build for camping Bubba (imo) is noed, insidious, agitation, and iron grasp bc it's very hard to get out of the basement, you'll have no terror radius, and 9/10 if things go bad you can fall back on noed for at least a 1k. If you play basement Bubba you should hide out of sight, sometimes that's in the basement, other times it's guarding the entrance.
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Swap insidious for deadlock and you'll see the change. Insidious does not really help. Especially on Bubba, because everyone expects it. And you would also be surprised that no - it's not usually 1K, but 2K instead (with the exception if survivors are able to run you for minutes until first down happens. Then it can be 0K - but each down is kill). This version has very real chance of getting 3K or 4K if survivors screw up in any way - btw this is also the reason why it's so much complained about. It's super boring, unfair and all around bad sportsmanship
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Thanks! I'll be experimenting :D It's not much more boring than sitting on gens. I can kinda understand the argument that it's not being a good sport, but at the end of the day what matters is intention, so if someone is doing it bc it's funny, or for the memes, I can respect that. Like I don't hit on hook (unless I'm getting back at a cheeky survivor lol), and I give hatch, so I hope people know I'm not intentionally trying to ruin their fun. Even when I get basement or face camped by a Bubba, I just gotta respect it for what it is lol.
Then again depending on who you ask other people may not be as amused, obviously, and to that, I mean to each their own. Camping Bubba should always be an option, tho.
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I don't agree. I actually find it quite fun to loose to CHASING bubba. The killer is much better then the credits he gets. Sure he is M1 killler. Sure good loopers can make it hard on him. But good chasing bubba can be a real beast. Especially those that can M2 moonwalk into a kill without hitting any close-by objects. Much more fun for both sides.
For the facecamping majority - you also force M1 on a generator. So you can be bored while being camped, or you can be bored by doing generators. One way or another, the game is just boring.
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