http://dbd.game/killswitch
Remove Flashlight Stuns, add a Hinder.
And remove the requirement to aim at a Killers face.
Flashlight stuns just make one uncontrollable animation lead into another uncontrollable animation. The counter is to look into a wall, and the face requirement causes some cognitive dissonance when using a Flashlight on Killers with no face, while being a needless hurdle to cross to use the basic functionality of an Item class.
If you shine a light on a Killer, it causes the Killer to gradually be Lightburned. NOT STUNNED like Wraith and Nurse. But a Lightburned Killer no longer sees scratch marks, has The Stain Hidden, and is Hindered while carrying a Survivor. If you shine it in the Killers face though, you get the added benefit of the Killers screen getting obscured (so there is something to practice).
This Hinder while carrying is present at any time the Killer is both carrying a Survivor, and also Lightburned. The Killer can be Lightburned at any time (unless using Lightborn), so there are no animwindows that need to be considered at all, just map placement: "Is the Killer far enough from a Hook that this Hinder will let that Survivor escape, or to let another Survivor get to the Hook to sabo it?"
The Suppressed scratch marks help Flashlights become a chase tool as well (the duration on the scratch mark suppression should be longer than the Screen Obscure if the Survivor gets a Lightburn in the face on the Killer)
The Stain suppression is there to represent the Killer being separated from the Entity, and to make it more of a tit-for-tat deal unless addons for the Flashlight are equipped.
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What would be the benefit? I only see worse gameplay
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Flashlights don't stun. The killer is still able to move while blinded. Unless you mean saving a survivor from killer grasp, but that has nothing to do with flashlights and the mechanic of a survivor escaping the killer's grasp.
Also flashlights it would be awful if survivors didn't need to aim flashlights.
Also you are confused, because Lightburn mechanic is a stun and doesn't require aiming at the killer's face. You can lightburn a wraith by aiming at the body. Should work the same with nurse, but admittably I haven't tried. Flashbangs are really great at lightburning wraiths.
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Less binary success/failure. Additional use in chases. More about attrition (hinder and placement) than purely about if you got downed near a high-wall or not.
Hmm, guess I need to word by suggestion more clearly:
Remove the Lightburn Stun from Nurse and Wraith (This is an outdated mechanic).
Rework Lightburn as a Status Effect that can be applied to all Killers if a Flashlight is aimed at them.
Remove the Flashlight Blind Killer Pickup stun (Killer grasp stun, whatever you're calling it).
Remove the Head Aim requirement for the Lightburn Status.
To reiterate, Lightburn has now been reworked and is no longer a stun, and wiggle escapes via flashlight blinds is no longer a thing.
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Questioning how it's outdated? It's still an effective way to stun Wraith at least. I haven't had any chances to use it on Nurse, but I'm sure it's really only kept in as a way to "counter" her blinks. I really don't see a reason to remove this unique mechanic. Turning it into a status just nerfs flashlights and buffs killers indirectly. It wouldn't matter if the killer gets slowed, as long as there's a hook in close proximity; even if there isn't they can always throw on Agitation and/or Iron Grasp to compensate. There's also the fact that a killer getting hindered and having to deal with it just because someone shined a light on them is pretty bad game design.
The status of disabling a killer's scratch mark tracking is also big for what a common item can do, and would be too abuseable. Even if you were to do this in a chase, it seems counterproductive for a survivor when the safest thing for them to do is just keep getting distance. Especially if the survivor is injured; lots of killer mains track by blood vs the scratch marks anyhow.
The killer blind mechanic for saving is 100% fine. Thing about flashlight saves is that timing is key for that stun. There's skill expression for the whole thing, learning when in the pick-up animation to aim away. If you can't get the timing right as survivor, it's just a thing of practice. If you're annoyed at the saves from the killer POV, then you do the method of picking up at a wall or equip Lightborn. You can even equip Franklin's Demise to even knock flashlights/flashbangs out of their hands too if you need to.
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duplicate
Post edited by AssortedSorting on0 -
It's a Killer Power tied to a brought Item. Similarly to how Trapper used to have his Traps permanently disabled via Toolbox, it causes the Power to be oddly disproportionate in use not based on player skill, but loadout.
It would only be abuseable if Flashlights still had their sky-high charges as they do now. Technically Flashlights still are a bit of an odd duck where you effectively get more "uses" based on how inexperienced the Killer is you face, and how much time you've invested in learning animation windows. Capable of performing anywhere from 0-8 Blinds I think? If you could disable scratch marks base, likely the number of times you could "Lightburn" the Killer would be reduced (As in, a successful event would eat away charges, not just turning the Flashlight on)
The thing about the Killer blind mechanic is it's less about survivor skill, and more about if the Killer has been conditioned to look into a wall during pickup, and if they're near one.
I'm more or less annoyed at the saves given that it conditions the Killer to be the kid told to stand in the corner and it still retains the cognitive dissonance of "why the hell can I not close my eyes or look away during this animation".
I'm equally impressed and annoyed at a survivor puling off a save, and wouldn't want to remove the abbility of Flashlights to be used to help a survivor wiggle out, but IMO the whole presentation is silly. (And also the Lightburn particle effects and sounds are cool and I don't know why they don't expand upon that concept)
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If the hinder is big enough, it would feel super terrible to get burned by a guy standing on top of saloon or something whilst your chasing a guy, or to lose scratch marks on lery's.
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There's still skill required though with lightburn. Wraith can easily move around to avoid a flashlight beam while uncloaking so he doesn't get stunned; it's not set in stone that he'll get stunned unless you're against a SWF. Nurse, I honestly hardly ever see anyone try to burn her (as they go down in seconds), but with enough reactive thinking an experienced Nurse I'm sure just knows to temper their blinks/be unpredictable. In Trapper's case, that was definitely a fatal flaw as it just held his power hostage. Wraith and Nurse are still able to use their powers, they just have to be patient on when and how they use it.
And flashlights do get more value if you've learned the timing definitely, that's the point of practicing the killer blinds. Going against an inexperienced killer makes this abuseable in a sense, however on its own, this factor does not equate to the effort put in to learn said timing. They're situational items when compared to a med-kit or toolbox, so their charges naturally are not going to go down as fast.
Killer blind is literally skill based. There are plenty of survivors who will point their flashlight at a killer, expecting it to do something while they are running full speed at them and get downed in the process. The best way/time to perform them is to take advantage of animation locks. You learn the animation timings, get in position for an angle, and wait for the killer to pick-up or fake it to lure the survivor with the flashlight out of hiding. Being conditioned to face a wall doesn't work in many outdoor maps if you're out in the open, so you take the time as killer to search your surroundings. If a killer just picks up blindly all the time it becomes an issue where they are not adapting. You learn from your mistakes, so you can become a better killer. Same goes for the survivor side too: you fail the timing/angle or just get caught, then you just have to practice your gameplay more. The only thing outside that isn't skill based that can make or break a flashlight save is latency (which they are addressing soon), and if a survivor is late on the timing a killer can still look away before being fully blinded.
And again, there is Lightborn and Franklin's if you want to not worry/worry less about flashlight saves being relevant in your matches. One perk negates any attempt, while the other eats up charges as a survivor scurries to search for their item on the ground.
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The hinder would only be while carrying a Survivor.
And the strength of this effect would mean that Flashlights would need to have something like 50% charges consumed on a successful Lightburn for the basic flashlight.
Honestly aiming the flashlight shouldn’t consume charges at all, just causing the Lightburn effect consumes charges.
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With regards to Nurse/Wraith it’s not that it’s skillful or not, the issue is it’s a niche interaction between two Killers and an Item. Scrub it out so there’s less to maintain. Then utilize that tech to expand it in a more general sense.
With regards to charges, what I’m referring to is that there are too many charges. Even if it’s situational, something like causing a Killer to drop a survivor is something that should only be useable once or twice in a match without any additional perk/addon investment.
Make it so that flashlights don’t consume charges when shining it (even in the Killers face?) But only consume charges when an event is triggered, or something, but they should not be useable much after a successful attempt.
Sure, flashlight blinds might take skill on the survivors part to learn to perform, but that isn’t what I said.
I said it takes zero skill to look at a wall. And if there isn’t a wall to look into that’s the fault of map design not having enough LoS blockers.
Blood Lodge is great for both Nurse and Flashlight users.
Total suppression of an effect is kinda BS (with Lightborn).
And I still have issues with Franklins charge decay. Franklins Perk value should come from Survivors needing to retrace steps to their Item, not also removing uses from it.
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There are plenty of other killers who have interaction options with flashlights in general though, so its not really that niche if you're generally associating an item to a killer's power. Nemmy's Zombies (blinding them so they can't track you), Hag's traps (they go poof), Spirit while phasing (gets rid of her husk, making it a visual indicator that she is phase-walking), and more. They have general usage with a variety of killer powers, but some are going to be less used compared to others; Artist's crows for instance will disappear similar to Hag, but you're better off running out of the crow's line of sight instead. If you wanted to be specific on just Lightburn, then you're buffing Wraith and Nurse, and Nurse for sure doesn't need anymore buffs. Snuff out all of the interactions, and you buff the other killers as well.
Charges are fine as is. Sure, if you make it so they only can proc a certain number of times it can deter bully squads but that's the only real benefit I see from this initially. Even then, you'll see them in the lobby with their flashlights (unless they all decide to run Residual Manifest and all take the time to search chests, wasting their time), and can counter their game plan, so there's no issue that needs to be resolved. And other than killer blinds, I don't remember if using your flashlight on Hag's traps or Zombies count as "events" or not; if they do, then this becomes way too big a nerf for flashlights, and would kill them way more than keys. Even if you're method to compensate by adding a hindered status while flashing your beam on them, successfully adding that debuff to the killer would also count as an event no?
It doesn't take much brain power to make sure you pick up while facing a wall, yes. However, the skill expression comes from making sure you are safe to pick up that matters. Even if you pick-up facing a wall, you can still leave yourself vulnerable to a Flashbang save as you don't need the same angle requirements to perform one, just timing is altered. Knowing that all maps aren't going to have walls, that's where the ability to scour for anyone lurking comes into play. That's where you pretend you're going to pick up, if you have a feeling someone will still come out after searching every corner. It becomes the fault of the killer, not the fault of the map's design if you don't do these things.
BS or not, that's what Lightborn was intended for, so you don't have to think about it at all. Franklin's is meant to punish survivors for bringing an item with them. It's not as threatening as it was pre-nerf where the item would be swallowed by the Entity if not found; sure it would be dead and unusable unless you're running Built To Last, but you still have the option to keep it when you escape if you spend time searching for it. And if it was a common item in their eyes, then Franklin's value is somewhat lost on the killer if a survivor decides to ignore searching for it.
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Nemmy’s Zombie interaction is strong, but I do not know why there isn’t a basic interaction to disable them without a Flashlight. (EG: they keep walking in the direction of the last point of line of sight of a survivor, so if a zombie approaches a gen, the survivor can lead them around a corner, then hop back on a gen while their back is turned)
I do not know why Hag’s traps cannot be smudged while crouched over them (alerting The Hag).
Artists crows is an odd one and more often then not, the time taken to burn it away is enough time for Artist to reach you.
Spirits visual indicator that she is phase walking is if she stops moving. Flashlights just remove the mindgame potential of a fakeout.
And then these are all interactions tied to an item for some reason. Why? If the general consensus for these Killers when seeing a lobby full of Survivors using these items is “make them not use their Items by bringing Franklins”, why even add those interactions in the first place?
And yeah, snuff out those interactions and rebalance accordingly.
regarding charges, aren’t bully squads the largest optical complaint? And regarding Hag/Nemmy as noted above I think their powers should have their Powers tweaked accordingly anyway as it’s odd that they have such a significant interaction with an Item.
I also don’t think Killer should see Survivors Items in the lobby.
This change isn’t going to remove the zoning skill for picking up survivors. The hinder (remember, this hinder is only applied while Lightburned and carry a survivor) should be strong enough that it significantly hinders the Killers hook range.
This change is intended to make it easier to apply a Flashlight effect, reduce application amounts, improve cognitive acceptance of events, increase flashlight use ability outside of pickups, and hopefully, removable of the blinding light screen in favor of something that can be darkerthemqtically (EG losing the connection to the entity causes the Killer’s screen to be obscured with Dark Fog)
I still think Lightborn’s total negation of an Item class is problematic (from a design standpoint), however I do agree that it’s fine as is for the given effects Flashlights apply.
Until items auto-equip after being sacrificed I don’t really see people bringing in trash items, and not really even then given the lowered cost of the Bloodweb.
I still wish that survivors dropped Items on the ground (with its Aura highlighted to them) when put into the dying state basekit. More thematic and engaging than just magically having it on you right off of Hook after being carried.
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so you basically want survivors to have 0 tools and go down immediately. If not, then make their stuff as useless as possible.
Beware. There is already few survivors in game as is. If stuff you want goes live, you can wait for match for 30 mins.
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There are, pallets will stun zombies too, causing them to despawn. Otherwise lead them away from the gen you're working on, and come back to it later, because that area is unsafe if Nemmy's keeping an eye out. You'll outrun the zombie. Hag on the other hand could use a rework overall, but otherwise you can disable her power without a flashlight. Run through them while she's carrying another survivor, as she can't warp to them. These interactions really aren't that significant at all. If they were, then every survivor would want to run flashlights with the intention to destroy the killer's powers vs saving allies.
As to why they're tied to flashlights, to give them more uses is only what I would assume is the intended purpose. They're easily flexible in the sense you can aim a light in any direction; pairing them with a different item wouldn't make sense. It becomes player choice if a killer decides to bring perks to counter them, and I doubt the devs will just delete all of these interactions just because of that.
Survivor items shown to the killer, allows the killer to adapt to each different lobby. It gives them an idea of what said survivors may be trying to do (4 flashlights for instance).
Bully squads, although they end up being what people complain about, there are not that many people who dedicate their time to playing in such ways. Even then, many of these SWF groups don't really do their objective of doing gens, and end up giving the killer free downs if they're all in your face.
There's no counterplay involved if you manage to successfully hinder the killer from their perspective. They just have to take the L as the survivor wiggles off if you need to travel some distance for a hook. Someone with a toolbox can come along to sabo the hook too to secure the wiggle. Even if you drop the survivor to go for the one with the flashlight, another survivor can come along to heal the downed person. This would be more abuseable by bully squads, especially if they input the basekit UB mechanics.
I really fail to see how Lightborn is problematic honestly. Sure it sucks finding out a killer has it, but its optional as a perk. It's llke Pokemon where a Ghost type is immune to Fighting type moves; you just adapt around it, in this case attempt to go for pallet saves when possible or put your focus on the objectives.
And that's pretty much a basekit Franklin's, which I don't see being beneficial to the health of the game. In concept, it does sound interesting for a killer to "disable" an helpless target on the ground, but it's too cruel of a base mechanic.
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I want the tools baked into the Power itself, rather than being tied with the flashlight. Not sure where you're getting removal of tools. I literally provided examples on how to bake counterplay into the power.
For nemmy that couterplay is ok at the start of the match. Later down the match when there are fewer gens and fewer pallets, a problem starts to emerge. That being said the zombie AI needs to actually be in the area to be useful anyway, and it's not like nemmy can order zombies around, yet.
Only Franklin's counters Flashlights (for Killer's Powers), Lightborn doesn't counter Flashlight effects for any Killers Power so far as I'm aware. All Killer Powers (at the moment), are required to be used in a location where the Killer/Survivor can move to (Victor even has a self-destruct if he lands on a raised surface...), so aiming the flashlight at something doesn't really do much that you could achieve just by moving your character.
There are a total of 6 interactions the Flashlight has with Killers Powers in the game. 2 of which are remnants of when the game released. If Flashlights were intended to be something to spice the game up by interacting with every Killer Power in a unique way, there'd be more interactions.
You adapt to your opponent(s) in-Trial. You do not adapt to them in trial lobby. There's a reason the Killer isn't shown to Survivors in lobby, and I see no reason to show Survivors Items so long as Lightborn exists in its current form.
Properly handling Flashlight charges reduces the ceiling on how much they can be used to be annoying, while improving the base effect can be used to make those reduced number of uses more impactful in other areas than just a pickup.
The scenario you describe sounds much more engaging than a binary "They hit the animwindow, reset encounter", with the counterplay being zoning, again. And if SoloQ is more likely to rush from a nearby gen to try and hinder the Killer, that sounds like they're falling under the same efficiency trap as you noted bully squads do.
Pokemon is a game all about type matching with you being able to create an adaptable roster of pokemon to switch through in a battle. And in DBD you can't really swap loadouts in-game, nor is it like you can search the Trial for a specific item (all chests are RNG, and even searching chests takes time).
Regarding the "basekit" Franklins, I'm not sure wat you mean by "disable" a target on the ground. People fall, they usually drop what they're holding. Is it too much? Maybe.
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You take fun away from survivors. You take item that is relatively easy to counter, but provides great payout/fun when it works and you want to make it "hinder". Who is going to enjoy that? I tell you who. Killers. Until survivors leave that is.
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You haven't read this thread at all. Read through it.
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I did. You want to replace flash saves with hindered. And you want to require survivors to both sabo and flash to save teammate. Not a fan. You just want to take away tools from survivors
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Flash/sabo if the pickup is in front of the hook, otherwise the hinder effect should be enough to reduce the range of movement for the Killer significantly, likely also increasing the wiggle effect similar to the PTB version of Boil Over.
I'm not looking to eradicate getting a survivor off of a shoulder, but the current version of flashlight is far too map dependent, with far too many charges, and requiring too much esoteric knowledge of game mechanics than anything that resembles common sense.
And then I want to introduce a Scratch-mark suppression effect onto the Lightburn effect at base so it increases the chase tool potential of the flashlight.
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oh shush. we allready have flashlights nerfed when they got changed. and now we cant do locker flashlight saves. stop
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Locker Flashlight saves kinda had to go, or the Killer should have the option of basic attacking a Locker and damaging the Survivor inside (including being able to put them into the dying state so they fall out of the Locker)
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Just yesterday I played badham. Killer picked up survivor from under the hook but did not notice - or rather decided to go for a scourge hook. He swung at me (missing) as I saboed the hook to his face and I ran away. Even after all this killer was able to bring the other survivor to even next hook.
Slowing down killer that holds survivor will not work even if it reduced the speed to 50%. Not to mention you would need to shine the flashlight for whole duration (15-16s) so you probably need purple flashlight with 1 battery for a single save. This is such an obvious disgusting nerf, that sorry. I very much hate your suggestion
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Who said you had to continuously hold the light on the Killer to hinder them?
Shining the Flashlight on the Killer for a duration (2s?), applies the Lightburn status effect.
Lightburn lasts for a duration, eg: 16s, without further survivor input involved.
While Lightburned a Killer cannot see scratch marks, and struggles to carry a survivor.
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