Eruption is as or even more unhealthy for the game as old Ruin was
First of all, I love the perk as killer but its just unfair, i always use it with call of brine because its the meta and carry games even when u play terribly, but its extremely oppressive for solo q players
Old ruin had a counter, you could get better at hitting skillchecks and if you sucked at it you could tap gens (good old days)... but even then it had a big risk related to it, a totem hex perk so it could be yeeted out of the game...
Meanwhile Eruption not only is a normal perk non totem related wich implies extreme high reward 0 risk since there is little to none requirement to make it work just kick the gen and of course 0 downside, survivors can not remove it or call it wich makes it UNCOUNTERABLE FOR SOLO Q, the consecuence is getting in the "useless status effect" as i like to call it, because literally you get useless for 30 seconds, nothing you can do to help or progress the game in any shape or form, the perk is that strong that can carry bad games and turn them into victorys even when missplayed massively.
the perk needs a change in the same way Ruin was changed and pain resonance even when i didnt even had much problems with this combo since the counter was CLEAR and SIMPLE no counter is found with eruption unless you have a cristal ball OR play with microphones wich of course solo q dont have.
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Couldn't agree more. The regression increase from 6% to 10% was good but the Incapacitated is just way too long now. It was already a poorly designed perk even before it got buffed but no one really used it so it wasn't talked about much.
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yeah, it sucks how even if you know the gen you are working has been eruption-kicked you cant do anything.
The only counter i can think of is if you happen to run empathy with your build so you can try to guess by the aura movements of the injured surv the moment he is going to get downed. But even so is not consistent at all.
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Eruption desperately needs a rework. It's so absurdly overtuned in the hands of a decent killer. Especially when you consider the Call of Brine synergy
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I was in True's stream today and people got on me for saying it was a horribly designed perk. They decided to blame it on the whole SWF vs Solo problem. I agreed noting SWF and Solo are night/day but by them saying that, they unknowingly were agreeing with me that it was fundamentally a horribly thought out and designed perk.
I asked True what the counterplay was for Eruption as a solo player and I kid you not, he said just don't get downed. I exitted the channel a few seconds later.
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While trying not to sound offensive, True has always been a very killer biased player.
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Oh I know. I can usually just shrug or agree to disagree w/ him. But the topic on Eruption blew my mind. So killer biased he downplays real issues survivors have b/c he can't give them any leaway. & then his chat leaps to defend and I'm like ??? I had to get out of there today, lol.
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The perk does have counter though. its called being successful at the chase. The main problem with killer is the killer could end multiple chases in 45 seconds throughout the entire match but still lose all 5 generator despite the survivor playing every chase incorrectly. Eruption rewards the killer for kicking generators and successfully ending chases to activate the perk. tru3 explained that in the stream. In many ways, he is right on the topic.
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The counter is relying on someone else to do something? That sounds awfully a lot like luck and not a counter.
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ok, so what exactly do I need to do as killer to get rewarded for kicking a generator?
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No it doesn't. Telling people not to go down is unrealistic. You're going to go down against good killers. I even said this. His reply was 'oh so I don't deserve to get any downs?' ...I never said you don't deserve to get a down. I said there's no counterplay for it as a solo player because its a horribly designed perk. I don't understand anyone who defends this perk. Its unhealthy for the game if 1 portion of the playerbase can't do anything about it. Again, saying 'dont get downed' is the most lazy response anyone can have to this perk. Just tell me you don't care/are biased as hell w/o telling me you are.
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Yeah completely agree
Old pop needed to be nerfed because it could potentially remove 20 seconds, IF you got a hook first and IF you kicked a gen within 45 seconds.
Yet eruption will trigger on as many generators as you kick directly removing 9 seconds and then forcing any survivors working it to do nothing for 24 seconds.
That's 33 seconds of survivor time wasted PER generator affected, significantly stronger than pre nerf pop and somehow this is okay and pop wasn't?
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"Don't go down" is especially stupid when you consider that it's telling me I'm responsible for my teammates' abilities in chase as well. Even if I'm a super loop god, Eruption's still going to ######### me up if the Jake goes down in 20 seconds every time and the Yui keeps trying to go for ballsy sabo saves.
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what is unhealthy about a perk that grants 10% regression and 25 seconds of incapacitated for downing a survivor after kicking a generator? Tru3 is defending the perk because he believes that survivors should not be able to complete the generator objective If they are unsuccessful at the chase. He states that as one of biggest problems in dbd for killer. He is defending eruption because the perk rewards the killer for being successful at the chase and gives incentive to go for what he will describe as playing for 12 hooks.
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Your/Tru3's point would be valid if were talking SWF. Again, were talking about solo play. In solo play, you are on a team with 3 other strangers. No comms, no trust, no knowledge of how good or bad they are in a chase. You have to rely on your teammates BLINDLY. You have little to no information. You'd have to have complete Line of Sight on the person during the chase so you knew when to hop off a gen. Again that isn't likely because maps aren't a straight line, they're boxes with buildings, walls, windows, pallets, bushes, etc all filling that space.
He is defending Eruption POORLY and IGNORANTLY because he does not want to agree that a killer perk is bad for the health of the game. Its that simple. He claims to be objective and open for a 'discussion' but its very clear he isn't, as anyone objective and unbiased would admit faults in the game, regardless of what side it leans to. Also he doesn't play for hooks (he used to), he plays for kills now.
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I mean, I get it it's not a fun thing for survivors to deal with, but why exactly is everyone calling it "unhealthy"? I mean like using this perk is toxic or something.
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he explained why he plays for kills. its because the game for killer is not balanced for hooks. if he plays for hooks, he is playing the game in its imbalanced state. Eruption tries to balance the game for hooks by rewarding the killer for downing the survivor. The issue is that kicking generator is secondary objective for the killer. Secondary objectives are not helpful towards a role that lacks time. Ultimately, the majority of killer powers are balanced around the killer getting a low amount of hooks which is why he disagrees with developer's obsession on balancing off the kill statistic because kill statistic does not accurately represent the killer's gameplay.
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Unhealthy doesn't mean toxic, it just means bad for game health. Kinda like how tunneling/genrushing are unhealthy even though they're not toxic in the slightest - it's just not great for general enjoyment or balance that the dominant strategy feels terrible to play against.
Eruption's not a healthy perk because it affects different brackets of players differently (and hurts disadvantaged players way more than advantaged players), it promotes a really tedious gameplay loop (stacking gen kick perks and obsessively defending gens), there's no realistic way to counter it without comms, and it causes survivors to be unable to do anything useful for huge stretches of the match. The Incapacitated is very overtuned and it's ass to play against.
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Right, so he's adapting to the game's state and playing appropriately. Its only secondary to a killer if they aren't running Call of Brine, Eruption or other gen disturbing perks. Your build plays a huge part. You're moving goal posts. Stick to the topic. Eruption & its bad design. You brought up 'counters' that aren't counters. Solo has no real counter, you seem to echo only what Tru3 says and you've already had it explained why your whole 'don't get downed' reasoning is absurd. I think even you know this. You haven't explained or responded to anything of what I've said in regards to counterplay.
And when someone answers as poorly as you or Tru3 does, all it does is lower your credibility.
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Why killers telling "get good in chase", then complain about how good a survivor in chase and the game is survivor's sided while bragging about their 80% kill rate.
Why killers telling "use 2nd chance perks" when survivors complains about tunneling, then complain about survivors use 2nd chance perks.
Why killers telling "just do gen" when survivors complain about camping that the only true counter is to play swf for communication, then complain about playing against swf
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- If I play killer I would be mad that I got 10 hooks 2 kills in previous match playing fair and treated by facing sweat squad next match.
- While a Bubba 4 hooks 4 kills and drops their MMR to face against newbies. Then repeat for easy 4k.
I would not say MMR is skill based, but MMR is sweat based, and I like MMR stays that way.
Increase MMR give you no benefit.
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Hit it on the nail man. You'll never win.
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A couple thing:
If a killer is downing players in 45 seconds or less repeatedly through the match and they still lose, then they didn't do everything right. They played with zero game sense and took terrible chases.
The reward for Eruption doesn't remotely scale with the absent counterplay and conditions to activate it. It can activate on multiple gens and stall them for an absurd amount of time. You talk about killers doing things right and not being rewarded, but this perk does exactly the opposite. A survivor can take a chase and bait the killer into an awful commit across the map, and the killer will still not lose a gen because of an Eruption proc+Incapacitated. If you have a problem with not rewarding the skill of one side, you should have a problem with not rewarding the skill of the other side.
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Pain res is a perfect example of a perk that rewards you for getting downs, but it does have counterplay and doesn't give you infinite value for your teammates "mistakes". I agree with everyone else here, you will go down vs a good killer eventually. Unless they are pre throwing the entire map while also playing well.
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Tired of the argument "if you do X then they will stop doing Y and do Z instead" logic. They don't. They keep doing Y with even more power to back it up. It assumes that the perk as is will cause the killer to play for hooks. That's rarely the case - they still will play for kills anyway they can, and this makes it more op for that.
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I like using OP perks but objectively, it's way too good.
Not being able to do ANYTHING for so long is hugely detrimental and it's counter-play is basically
"just don't do gens 4head"
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Not much counterplay to Eruption other than to team up on a gen (preferably a critical gen). Either alternate repairs between the two of you or have 1 person repair it while the other person stands and watches (hopefully with Prove Thyself). When the gen explodes, there's 1 person unaffected who can finish the repairs.
Does this mean that 1 person is standing around being useless anyway, giving the killer the same if not more value for the perk even if they wouldn't have? Yes, which is why I would only try it for crucial gens.
Maybe gen-tapping would work, since there would be a 50/50 chance of dodging the Eruption... 🤔
Another thing I do is make a mental note for how long my teammates last in chase. If they go down quickly, then I hop off the gen shortly after they've been injured the next time.
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I'm not saying these are feasible or efficient. Just showing the ways I'm struggling to adapt as a solo player.
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I completely agree it rewards bad plays and keep the game hostage (3 gen strats for example), those strats are fine, but the counterplay is way to unreasonable in solo q and even in comms i still argue that the incapacitated for that long is way too much power. I really would like if they just removed the cooldown and the incapacitated status effect from the perk. I think that would be a great start for a better designed perk.
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Yes, Eruption is probably the one Killer Perk which needs Changes. It is just stupidly overtuned currently. The main thing are the 25 seconds of Incapacitated. Let alone that the Cooldown of Eruption is just 5 seconds longer than that...
On Top of that, it is lacking counterplay (I can stand up from a Gen when I know that it has been kicked with Eruption, however, I cannot tell when the Survivor in Chase is going down unless I see them) and works on multiple Gens, making 3 Gen-Setups even harder to deal with than normally.
At some point I thought that maybe instead of Incapacitated it should make the respective Gen unable to be repaired. So the Survivors would be able to do other things like Healing, looting a Chest, cleansing a Totem or can look for another Gen. But not doing anything is just too much.
However, this idea would just make Eruption basically Pain Resonance/Dead Man Switch in one Perk, which is also not really good.
But yeah, overall, it needs changes. Stupid Perk currently, especially because it pairs so good with other Slowdown-Perks, which just allows very obnoxious Builds.
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I'm surprised devs decided to do nothing about it on upcoming update.
I hope it changes into "not heavily affected by other teammates going down" and "less synergy with Call of Brine".
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You still have to kick a couple of gens which is a time investment, old ruin began working immediately at the start of the game at least.
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That entire discussion turned into what about-ism, it's unreal how he can claim to be accepting of discussion when anything that's even slightly negative towards killer is met with "well what about survivors???"
Like sorry, I shouldn't have to address every single other problem in this game before I comment on the current conversation topic.
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Yeah, I really want to know the thought process behind thinking Pop deserved a nerf but Eruption is ok.
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They said they just wanted to change the meta.
Such a shame, how bad the balance team is.
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You never talk about killer sided problems in that chat ( yes eruption is a horribly designed ,problematic perk) and tbh as reductive as it sounds for solo q you just need to not go down
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Dont know if this counts at badmouthing but Tru3 is probably one of the most Killer biased personalities in the whole streaming DBD scene (at least big time streamers), his fans are the same and in the end his chat is just a massive echo chamber. If you really want to talk about balance there are a ton of more constructive streamers out there, both the streamer and the fans.
Onto the topic, Eruption is horrible overtuned, if you kick 3 gens (nothing hard) and you manage to affect 2 Survivors you get 27 seconds of regression and 2 people not working on gens for 25 seconds, which adds to all the regression already done by the explosion.
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And to counter old DS/Unbreakable meta you just needed to not down/pick up a survivor, and to counter god pallets you just need to not chase at that part of the map etc... It sounds stupid.
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Yeah but the meta is still the same. Both perks essentially work the same way: you kick a gen to get a % of regression. The problem is that Eruption is way unhealthier than Pop was.
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They are right tho. Some Perks were just nerfed to remove them from the Builds. PGTW is one example, Ruin another (it would have been a fair Nerf to just disable it once a Survivor is dead, this is rare anyways and if this happens, the Killer will most likely have so much pressure that they dont need Ruin anymore, but the Regression-Nerf killed the Perk). Same with DS reduced to 3 seconds (something the Devs also know that it is not enough, since they buffed it to 5 seconds and let Enduring not affect it anymore a few years ago) or the Double-Nerf to Iron Will (again, 100% Noise Reduction and being Exhausted while using Iron Will would have also been a proper Nerf without completely destroying the Perk).
So the goal was Meta Shake-Up and some Perks just got hit to remove them from the Meta. However, I agree to you that they failed with the Meta Shake-Up, at least on the Killer Side. Because the Meta is still to run as many Slowdown-Perks as possible, probably even more than before since BBQ is not used as much anymore. Just different Slowdown-Perks than before.
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What if Eruption had a 30-second cooldown for each affected generator, rather than a flat 30-second cooldown? Or was only limited to one generator?
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The perk is designed to be a surprise. The fact that SWFs can bypass this mechanic doesn't change this.
The fair solution would be to make eruption an AoE incapacitate, so it can affect solo q and SWF more equally. This solution shouldn't affect solo q very much, since it's very unlikely they would know exactly when to let go of a generator. Solutions that nerf SWFs, without nerfing solo q, are very healthy for the game.
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But Eruption is currently balanced around the fact that it doesn't have a 100% success rate.
The fact that it doesn't have a 100% success rate is almost purely down to the discrepancy between solo and SWF. If you made it so even SWF was effected by it, then it would be too strong, and would require a nerf.
So why not just change the effect to something else that achieves both of those things? Block the gen instead of inflicting survivors with Incapacitated.
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You remind me, I got a party against the Doctor, with butcher, pop, eruption and overcharge
He got a very small map, and, just waiting in the center of the map, using his power, and just hit and run when somebody touch a gen just for break it
When all the generator are touch by eruption, he go putting down a survivor, making all the people on the gen on the influence of eruption
He play like that all the game, just waiting, seeing all the gen on the top of the hill (the only infrastructure was the killer cabin)
3 gen remaining, everyone is dead, survivor can't do gen just because you have eruption, and him wo can see all the gen instantly
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That would allow injured survivors to purposely do generators while injured, with the knowledge they could just heal with eruption goes off. And eruption doesn't have a 100% success rate, because killers don't 100% kick every generator on the map before knocking someone to the ground.
Again, nerfing SWF without nerfing solo is healthy for the game. It's the good way to bridge the gap between solo and SWF. Making eruption affect SWFs should be seen as a good thing, because SWFs shouldn't be able to bypass so many game mechanics when they use voice communications.
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But blocking the gen instead of causing incapacitated does just that. Nerfs SWF without nerfing solos.
Giving Eruption some form of AoE effect just moves the problem somewhere else. Instead of 'letting go of the gen' when their team mate is about to go down it's 'let go of the gen and move 8? meters away'.
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I think I need explain first part your post in more detail. What tru3 was describing is that the survivor could loop 0 pallets correctly, get hit and go down on every single chase and the survivor could still complete all generators. this is closer to word for word for what he was describing. I just shorten it to 45 second chases because I did not want to go into raw detail. In other words, the killer could have 30 second chases, spend 10-15 second walking to a hook to hook the survivor(45 second total chase time spent) and immediately find the next survivor to chase in next 15 seconds. Repeat this process the entire match. Tru3 would still lose all 5 generators even though in his view, he played every chase as efficiently as he could. Randomly hooking survivors and hoping they die is sure way for the killer to lose. He further elaborates a theory that killer that play for hooks often win strong teams because they accidentally played efficiently by pure chance.
The second paragraph is more complicated to break down.
It can activate on multiple gens and stall them for an absurd amount of time.
The killer needs to kick multiple generators to acquire multiple eruption procs. Kicking generator is secondary objective for killer. Any time spent kicking generator is time not spent chasing. Every map is nearly 10,000 sqrt meters. For your average m1 killer, The killer spent 20 seconds walking to every generator to kick a single generator. A few select killer like Wraith or Blight have out-chase mobility to slightly shorten the time to walk to generators, so in some cases, mobility can translate into generator defence through perks. I am not going to go in detail on every killer to further elaborate on this point. The 25 second incapacitated is not absurd reward because the killer wastes time kicking generators to apply the perk. Complaining about 10% regression is laughable compared to how fast survivor progress generators.
You talk about killers doing things right and not being rewarded, but this perk does exactly the opposite. A survivor can take a chase and bait the killer into an awful commit across the map, and the killer will still not lose a gen because of an Eruption proc+Incapacitated.
This is precisely tru3's position. The survivor is playing as poorly as possible while still escaping. The killer is downing the survivor as fast as possible but still losing. Tru3 summarizes the complaints on eruption as survivors wanting to be terrible at the chase but still escaping. Going down in 30 seconds every chase is playing as bad as possible as survivor.
Sure, Pain res is a lot stronger because it works automatically, does not require kicking generators and gives higher regression reward. My only complaint about this perk is for why I only get the reward 33% of the time. Why does it only work on 4 hooks and not on every hook? Instead of giving 2.5% laughable kicking regression rewards, Why not give Scourge hook: pain resonance as base-kit on every hook? The perk could be repurposed to increase the rewards by 2.5% regression. There would be more incentive for the killer to hook different survivors and be rewarded for successfully chasing a survivor. In tru3 words, he would describe the killer playing for hook as 12 hooking/using no strategy.
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Blocking just the generator would massively nerf the perk, and would be a buff to survivors, because they would just heal during the eruption time. And if The AoE solution isn’t good enough, it could be changed to activate on survivors that have repaired an affected generator within the last x seconds.
We need perks like eruption, because killers need more solutions for survivors that want to excessively hide, pre leave generators, or try to bait killers into lose/lose situations by running far away from generators that are being worked on. We need more solutions that encourage killers to take chases, instead of feeling forced to abandon chase after chase if the survivor gets too far away from the generators that are being worked on. This is especially a problem with SWFs, when they use voice communications to warn each other where the killer is, so they can pre leave generators easier.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on1 -
I think they should decrease the incapacitated effect to 15 seconds or a little less, and compensate by increasing the regression to 13-15%, since the main problem with it is how awfully much you get penalized by the incapacitation. It's a time you become almost completely useless, as you can't even do a totem or heal to compensate for not doing gens.
Eruption used to be useless because both values were pathetic low and didn't compensate for having to kick gens or the cooldown. If the regression is good, the incapacitation shoudln't be so freaking long.
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Do people feel like it’d be significantly more reasonable if they just tweaked the numbers slightly? It used to be 6% regression and 16 seconds incapacitated. Why about 8% or 10% regression with the 16 seconds?
I think 16 seconds incapacitated is probably ok (annoying, yes, but not THAT bad). Do others feel that even 16 seconds is too unfair?
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Then again if you ask those players whom are good at hitting great skillchecks how they became that good... They'd say it was old Ruin
So Eruption may be bad for the game now but if they change it and people start playing around how it used to work... It would be better for the game
Also Gen Tapping seems to be one way to not get caught by Eruption (for the most part)
All of the badly designed perks lead to players learning how to do something
Old Ruin- Great skillchecks and looking for Totems
Nurse's Calling (not saying it's a badly designed perk)- Not healing in the TR of the Killer
Discordance (again not saying that it was a badly designed perk)- Not grouping up on Gens... Splitting up on Gens
BBQ- Hiding in lockers, Being on the other side of a Gen, Being within 40M of the Killer... Positioning
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I don't want to get too far into the weeds here, but Tru3 starts off with an ironclad view of what he considers to be skilled DbD play and bases his viewpoints off of that. There's never consideration on his part that he may be wrong about what constitutes skilled play at the highest level. For instance: looping and not playing tiles on the survivor end. You see this at the competitive level i.e. the highest level. Most teams will tell you a 10 second chase in the correct part of the map is better than a 1 minute chase in the wrong side of the map. You will get benched as a survivor if you're trying to extend chases in bad areas and not creating space. It looks like terrible survivor play if your only definition of good play is looping.
DbD at a high level is much less about tile optimization and more about space creation and positioning. And I think a lot of people get hung up on that, mostly content creators. It's not accidental efficiency on the survivor end in many cases. It's creating space. And the killer needs to recognize a valid opportunity for a valuable down vs giving too much space.
And regarding Eruption strategy, killers will absolutely kick gens at all costs with the Eruption/CoB build in my experience. It's almost always a 20 minute slog of gen kicking and trying to get the killer to commit to something.
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