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Various Legion rework ideas (because we can't get enough of these threads am I right?)
Rework A: Deep wounds as anti-spam:
Frenzy will now down injured survivors if they don't have Deep wounds
Frenzy drains DW by less. It would take 5 hits to down with just Frenzy
Deep wounds is faster to mend and never ticks while in the killers terror radius
Legions terror radius is increased to 32 meters
Frenzy is 7% slower than it is now (132% -> 125%). He vaults pallets and windows at 90% (I am willing to make it lower) survivor speed instead of 100% or more (not sure the exact speed right now)
Rework B: Frenzy as dash:
Feral Frenzy is renamed to Feral Burst
Instead of doing a sprint it does a VERY quick dash for less than a second (think dead hard)
Dashing into a pallet or window does a survivor speed vault
Feral Burst has 3 charges and you gain a charge by hitting a survivor. You also gain a charge every 60 seconds
Using Feral Burst consumes a charge
Legion terror radius is increased to 32 meters
Legion movement speed is increased to 115%
Rework C: Deep wounds as debuff
Survivors cannot self mend
Deep wounds gradually increases in intensity over 30 seconds. It does not stop ticking while in a chase
Deep wounds decreases movement/vaulting speed up to 10% and all other action speeds by up to 25%
Deep wounds takes 15 seconds to be mended up from 10
Hitting a survivor who has Deep wounds already with frenzy will instantly move the timer 20 seconds forward
Frenzy itself is otherwise unchanged
Comments
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I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.6
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Rework A: Deep wounds as anti-spam:
Frenzy will now down injured survivors if they don't have Deep wounds
Deep wounds is faster to mend and never ticks while in the killers terror radius
Legions terror radius is increased to 32 meters
Frenzy is 7% slower than it is now (132% -> 125%). He vaults pallets and windows at 90% (I am willing to make it lower) survivor speed instead of 100% or more (not sure the exact speed right now)Rework B: Frenzy as dash:
Feral Frenzy is renamed to Feral Burst
Instead of doing a sprint it does a VERY quick dash for less than a second (think dead hard)
Dashing into a pallet or window does a survivor speed vault
Feral Burst has 3 charges and you gain a charge by hitting a survivor. You also gain a charge every 60 seconds
Using Feral Burst consumes a charge
Legion terror radius is increased to 32 meters
Legion movement speed is increased to 115%Rework C: Deep wounds as debuff
Survivors cannot self mend
Deep wounds gradually increases in intensity over 30 seconds. It does not stop ticking while in a chase
Deep wounds decreases movement/vaulting speed up to 10% and all other action speeds by up to 25%
Deep wounds takes 15 seconds to be mended up from 10
Hitting a survivor who has Deep wounds already with frenzy will instantly move the timer 20 seconds forward
Frenzy itself is otherwise unchangedREWORK A---It sounds like what we got in the last PTB, injured people took 2 hits from FF to go down and yours is 1.Thought it souns like the normal DW on a healthy Survivor so tthere's that but it still sounds more powerful.
REWORK B---I like this one but it sounds like his power is basically a lunge. Instead of Lunging you use this, this still sounds awesome because you can use it to jump a pallet and that's basically the best part of the power, jump the pallet and hit them. This would be the easiest and simplest solution but it would take away everything special about Legion, the adrenaline fueled sprint of slashing that need metal music.
REWORK C---I'm kind of confused about this one, I love that it debuffs repair speed and makes them slower, makes perfect sense they just got GUTTED. But they still have to Mend, so do they still go down if they don't Mend or is the DW only for the action speed? If it's action speed and movement only then holy ######### this might be the way to go!
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Wait. Forgot something with with rework A. Repeat hits would do less damage than now (so it would be 5 hits rather than 4 to down with deep wounds)
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Rework C would completely remove the downing potential of DW and would also stay until healed (possibly for the rest of the game)
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@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.That would be an incomparable killer. Outside the scope of what these reworks are trying to accomplish
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@HatCreature Basically Rework C is a debuff that gets worse the longer you don't touch it. At max effect it is comparable to the clown intoxication except it lasts longer and has a different activation method.
I personally like Rework A the most, think Rework C has the most potential and put Rework B as more of an option for those who want a full on rework as it is the only one that alters the actual purpose of the power
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I thought that's the point? You can tinker with Legion a little bit right now but all of the problems remain.NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.That would be an incomparable killer. Outside the scope of what these reworks are trying to accomplish
The vaulting pallets build simply doesn't work.0 -
Should probably point out that all 3 of these are intended to overall be more powerful than the current legion because that legion is weak.
For A the increased downing potential outweighs the other nerfs given
For B the massive chase potential is worth giving up everything else
For C the buffed stalling power lets him accomplish his intended purpose effectively enough that his lackluster downing is less problematic (and it even gives SOME degree of downing potential still)0 -
I'd suggest:
Remove the Legion entirely. Such a bland, boring killer.0 -
@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.
That would be an incomparable killer. Outside the scope of what these reworks are trying to accomplish
I thought that's the point? You can tinker with Legion a little bit right now but all of the problems remain.
The vaulting pallets build simply doesn't work.
Why not? Nurse exists, Hag exists, Huntress bypasses them entirely. Something is only fundamentally problematic if it is mathematically impossible to tone down, which in this case it is fairly straightforward to tone down or otherwise counterbalance.
And in all 3 reworks using it to vault pallets has a draw back
A makes it impractical to down this way
B makes it come at a cost giving it risk
C makes it literally impossible to down this way0 -
@flojoe said:
I'd suggest: Remove the Legion entirely. Such a bland, boring killer.Bad suggestion. Removing content is the last resort and we haven't reached that point yet. Instead identify why he is bland and figure out the minimum number of changes needed to fix it
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Well, I don't really know what to do with Legion. I dislike the design, the lore - it's all just meh to me. The only positive thing to come out of Legion was Discordance imo, that's the only reason I leveled them up. Tbh, I can't really be bothered to think about any changes that are worthwhile. I think the Legion is just a boring design and I couldn't care less.
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@flojoe said:
Well, I don't really know what to do with Legion. I dislike the design, the lore - it's all just meh to me. The only positive thing to come out of Legion was Discordance imo, that's the only reason I leveled them up. Tbh, I can't really be bothered to think about any changes that are worthwhile. I think the Legion is just a boring design and I couldn't care less.If you don't care then why are you commenting on this thread about caring about the legion and trying to make him more interesting to play as/against
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I commented because I'm bored.
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@flojoe said:
I commented because I'm bored.KK.
If hypothetically we reworked the lore into something you like more (I don't care what. Don't bother explaining it) THEN would any of these reworks help the legions design in your opinion?
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I myself am not a game designer, but I think that B sounds most fun to me. At least seems to have some kind of skill involved as to when to use the power.
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I would prefer they left Legion alone rather than make any of these changes. But if I HAD to pick one then I would choose rework B. I think that would probably be tougher to balance than the current version though. Think about it for a second. At 115% move speed and 3 dashes survivors would have almost 0% outplay potential and the chases would be short. 2 of those dash hits would have their tokens refunded. By the time you are in a chase again you'll easily be at 3 tokens again.
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@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.You should check this out, I think as far as mimicing a Survivor this is as manageable as that idea can get. A lot of people just think you can look like a Survivor but in all honesty the results from that isn't as strong as it sounds so this idea turns it on it's head with something realistic.
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@HatCreature said:
@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.You should check this out, I think as far as mimicing a Survivor this is as manageable as that idea can get. A lot of people just think you can look like a Survivor but in all honesty the results from that isn't as strong as it sounds so this idea turns it on it's head with something realistic.
I've never really been a fan of that concept. I mean it's alright, but it just doesn't really appeal to me.
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The real easiest solution to fixing Legion is to delete him and rebuild from scratch. 😁
But in seriousness a lot of his problems come from the exploiting and also 2 addons being brokenly op but if you change things it's a question of how do you do it without breaking him worse in either direction.
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What's the second? Iridescent button?powerbats said:The real easiest solution to fixing Legion is to delete him and rebuild from scratch. 😁
But in seriousness a lot of his problems come from the exploiting and also 2 addons being brokenly op but if you change things it's a question of how do you do it without breaking him worse in either direction.
Anyways all 3 of these reworks fix Frank's and the exploitability.
A changes the drain system to make it harder to exploit while Frank's would make it go from 5->4 instead of 4->3 hits
B and C both completely remove anything to exploit and would already require reworking Frank's0 -
As long as you aren't suggesting a nerf then it's all fun and games. I made my own rework idea that actually makes the Legion much more complicated but I had hoped more fun as well. Eh, if you want I can post it, if not I will let you know which rework I would choose from the ones you offered:
Rework C. This one sounds the most worthwhile.
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Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
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Yeah. C being the best of these seems to be the trend I'm seeingShad03 said:As long as you aren't suggesting a nerf then it's all fun and games. I made my own rework idea that actually makes the Legion much more complicated but I had hoped more fun as well. Eh, if you want I can post it, if not I will let you know which rework I would choose from the ones you offered:
Rework C. This one sounds the most worthwhile.
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I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage thenTucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Tucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage then
I guess your ability to cognitively understand the difference is lacking. Can they down survivors faster than running around with M1 and bloodlust? Are they complicated in application?
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@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Tucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage then
I guess your ability to cognitively understand the difference is lacking. Can they down survivors faster than running around with M1 and bloodlust? Are they complicated in application?
Nurse, Huntress and Spirit both take more finesse than basic 115% killers.
To answer your new question both all 3 of those classes and these reworks can down survivors faster than M1 + Bloodlust
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Rework A has the fast first hit and if you go after someone else you can get both hits quickly (and then go back for the 2nd guy for a very high average downs per second)
Rework B is 115%
Rework C is effectively 120% while DW is applied which isn't particularly complicated to do
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@NuclearBurrito said:
@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Tucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage then
I guess your ability to cognitively understand the difference is lacking. Can they down survivors faster than running around with M1 and bloodlust? Are they complicated in application?
Nurse, Huntress and Spirit both take more finesse than basic 115% killers.
To answer your new question both all 3 of those classes and these reworks can down survivors faster than M1 + Bloodlust
Then perhaps you have workable reworks. The only caveat would be if to do so requires level of play only a handful of people can pull off. Meaning as example, Legion can down faster than m1 and Bloodlust but would be completely blind doing so and required you to hear the survivor and guess where they are. That level of complication would not be workable as 99% of the player base would be completely ineffective in playing it. It's a grey area but while grey it is recognizable.
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@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Tucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage then
I guess your ability to cognitively understand the difference is lacking. Can they down survivors faster than running around with M1 and bloodlust? Are they complicated in application?
Nurse, Huntress and Spirit both take more finesse than basic 115% killers.
To answer your new question both all 3 of those classes and these reworks can down survivors faster than M1 + Bloodlust
Then perhaps you have workable reworks. The only caveat would be if to do so requires level of play only a handful of people can pull off. Meaning as example, Legion can down faster than m1 and Bloodlust but would be completely blind doing so and required you to hear the survivor and guess where they are. That level of complication would not be workable as 99% of the player base would be completely ineffective in playing it. It's a grey area but while grey it is recognizable.
Ok but I don't think that will be a problem here. Since frenzy is considered one of the easiest ways to get a hit.
When I say that legion can down faster than a powerless 115% killer I mean this:
First hit: 132% (or 113.2% faster than the the downing speed of a 115% killer)
Second hit: 110% (or 33% slower than the downing speed of a 115% killer)
This is a total time of a bit faster than going 115% for both hitsGiven these reworks proper use of their power can get it to be even faster, however standard brute force use of the power will eventually work faster than bloodlust would
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The reason why current legion sucks is because all of the other killers have either both 115% AND a useful power (legions is only enough to counteract not being 115, but isn't strong enough to be equivalent to that plus additional power on top of that) or have a slower movement speed with a power that is insanely good in a chase
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Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?
I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.1 -
@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
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I mean the prototype they showed on the dev stream from when Legion was still in development.NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
They had that working them changed it because they wanted him to be able to vault pallets at any time. It does sound like Myers but maybe a drastc change is needed due to how much people seem to hate the current Legion.1 -
@NuclearBurrito said:
@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
The whole point of a rework is to fundamentally change a character. Maybe my post would be considered a overhaul but same difference really. And what @The_Crusader mentioned has nothing to do with my work, that idea belongs to another. (I would imagine the idea I pitched would be a lot like GTA V's character switch, you can play as any of the characters whom have a different playstyle but are generally the same.)
That last bit might be interesting to see though.
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@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?
I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
I mean the prototype they showed on the dev stream from when Legion was still in development.
They had that working them changed it because they wanted him to be able to vault pallets at any time. It does sound like Myers but maybe a drastc change is needed due to how much people seem to hate the current Legion.
Is this stream recorded anywhere? I kinda want to see it
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@NuclearBurrito said:
@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?
I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
I mean the prototype they showed on the dev stream from when Legion was still in development.
They had that working them changed it because they wanted him to be able to vault pallets at any time. It does sound like Myers but maybe a drastc change is needed due to how much people seem to hate the current Legion.
Is this stream recorded anywhere? I kinda want to see it
I second that, please post here if you can.
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I think it was this one but no idea of the timestampNuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?
I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
I mean the prototype they showed on the dev stream from when Legion was still in development.
They had that working them changed it because they wanted him to be able to vault pallets at any time. It does sound like Myers but maybe a drastc change is needed due to how much people seem to hate the current Legion.
Is this stream recorded anywhere? I kinda want to see it
https://youtu.be/D4-E4R0oHBY
Around the 30min mark they do talk about it though. I listened to it now and apparantly survivots didnt like it because there was no counterplay - which is the same as what we have now.
That was obviously going to happen though the moment the killer could vault pallets. Nurse is pushing it already and they've said they want to nerf her so not sure why they went ahead with this.0 -
@flojoe said:
I'd suggest: Remove the Legion entirely. Such a bland, boring killer.Useless comment, we are trying to debate on how could the Legion be better, not remove him because you get smacked at least 10 times in a game by him.
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