Do you think people will dislike the Knight if he will be just worse Artist?
Place Guard on the loop. Continue chase.
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If that stays the best way to play him I don't think either side will appreciate it much, no
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If he’s actually a less effective Artist variant on the live servers he won’t be too popular aside from people who just really are into his look or whatever. Artist herself is a below average pick rate opposing killer on Nightlight for instance so being a weaker type of that character would be pretty bad.
That said I’m not going to make any assumption on the live version since Knight does have potential to be on par with Artist with some tweaks and they almost always make changes between the PTB version of a character and the live release. Even if he’s only picked as often as Artist that’s ok.
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I do and I dont agree with this
The only guard you really want to force into a lose-lose situation for a Survivor (unless they hold W) is the Assassin, the rest have other uses which can be pretty helpful
Carnifex can net you a hit when you otherwise wouldnt have thanks to how fast he breaks walls or pallets, you can be a decent distance away as well to just quickly go in and out of summon mode
Jailor works well with keeping a gen locked down, perks like CoB and Overcharge (especially Overcharge) work pretty damn well with him. I can also picture DMS working pretty well but I havent tested that.
Assassin and Jailor can also be the difference between a gen being finished or not, since you can quickly go into summon mode from a decent distance and send them to break a gen which forces any Survivor off of it for the entire duration of the breaking animation, which is 6 seconds. There were quite a few times when I was on PTB where I was able to stop a gen being finished because of this.
The same can be done with a pallet, where you can slap down one of the guards to break it and a Survivor cant vault it for the duration of the animation.
Im sure theres many other neat things you can do, and I cant wait for him to reach live so I can do more testing (queue times are WAY too long on PTB, and bots dont really do it for me)
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I hope he’s fun regardless
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Zoning killers are some of the most obnoxious and outright anti-fun (and I mean anti-fun literally here, they shut down the fun part of the game which is looping) killer designs in this entire game, so even if Knight were the worst killer in the entire game he's probably going to be miserable to face.
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Okay, if you're talking about how weak his is in that he's a weaker Artist, then sure I get that. But I think it's really disingenuous to say that "he's the exact same killer" and that his counterplay is the same. There's gonna be more to do than just hold W vs this guy. The devs have seen to that with the built-in counter of the banner, or getting hit by the knight to get away from the guard or vice versa.
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To me, calling a killer anti-fun or miserable to face is just a facade to say that they're overpowered. If that's not the case, then what's the issue? Just employ the counterplay and you'll be out the next thing you know. People say this about Twins, Artist, Wraith even, and I don't see it. They're fun to face, mostly because they're weak, and the stronger killers because they're strong, all because they each have a unique ability that you have to counteract. Maybe the reason they're so bland, compared to what they could be, is because y'all discourage the devs from going bold with killer design because all they hear is "X killer is unfun, overpowered, and/or bad design," so they play it safe. Every time.
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I dont get why they made him this way, the whole idea was based of having patrolling and hunting knights yet both are awful...
Would be better if they allowed you to setup patrols between gens and after have a timed event to trigger a hunt with a mini baby power for himself. This stops the boring gameplay but actually has patrols and hunts
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“To me, calling a killer anti-fun or miserable to face is just a facade to say that they're overpowered.”
That’s not true in the slightest. There are several killers who are weak but not fun to face because of bad power design or an unfun playstyle being encouraged, and there are strong killers who are fun to face because their power doesn’t feel cheap or gimmicky. Viability and quality of gameplay are two completely separate things.
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There's no intentional relationship there. Trapper is terrible and yet still not fun at all to go against. Wesker is quite strong and I love going against him.
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The problem is there's not much to elaborate on when you call them unfun, is there? It's completely subjective. You can pretty much rationalize why any killer in the game is unfun. But if enough people agree with you, it suddenly becomes truth. Why is Deathslinger unfun? "Because his chase is uncounterable." Why is Wraith unfun? "Because he just hits you, cloaks, and then hits you again." That's why I don't use those buzz words or pay much mind to people who use them, because it doesn't require any intelligent thought.
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^ this.
Like, I dislike to go against Clown, Legion or Trapper. All of them on the weaker side, with Trapper probably the worst Killer in the game. I also dislike to go against Myers, just because it feels cheap to not see him all game and be insta-downed when you run into him, because someone else was feeding him Evil.
Meanwhile, I dont mind going against stronger Killers like Billy, Blight (without Alchemist Ring tho) or Wesker, all fun to verse. Sure, there are Killers with bad design and strong (e.g. Hag), but strong/OP does not equal unfun.
@Topic:
I really hope they nerf his Anti-Loop and improve his Patrols. Because the way he is intended to play is quite weak, while the Anti-Loop is strong, similar to Artist. And I would really prefer if we dont get Artist 2.0, but he has his own unique power with the Patrols which are actually viable.
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Within this community there is. People complain about Trapper because "I don't want to look at the ground the whole game." as if that's all there is to do, and so they call that unfun because they go down to it, therefore "it's OP" without them directly saying it is.
Wesker like any other fast killer gets complained about mostly because he's fast, even though he has an abysmal start-up on his ability. You might love going against him, but most say he needs to be nerfed, especially when it comes to getting max infected, where they want the Hindered or the instadown taken away. Why would they demand such a change if they didn't think it was unfun and OP?
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My man just implied that people call Trapper OP. I have seen everything.
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Why complain about him or call him miserable to go against if they don't think so? We know full well that people call killers OP because of the most minor inconveniences that their powers create. Yes, even Trapper they do not excuse. Because they didn't excuse Wraith either. They didn't excuse Deathslinger. They didn't excuse Freddy. They just blanket statement say, "This is unfun and is hurting my feelings." and get validated, always.
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Survivors only want to play against killers they can loop for 5 gens cause they want game design to make survivor and killer an equal 1v1 in a 1v4 game. If survivors designed killers, we'd have 28 Pig clones
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"Trapper gives me anxiety whenever I vault a window, that's just plain unfun. Also last game against a Trapper I stepped into a trap and tried 5 times to get out. By the 6th try Trapper had come ALL the way from the other side of the map and downed me. What other killer has such crazy control? On some maps like Eiry playing against him feels OK and is even fun, but any McMillans or Autohaven map is literally distilled anti-fun."
There you go, mate, I threw you a curve ball.
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“It doesn’t require any intelligent thought.”
Do you realize how pretentious you sound? What, you expect me to write a dissertation on why I don’t enjoy going against certain low-tier killers? Some killers have powers that are either built around or whose playstyles encourage an unhealthy gimmick which causes distaste amongst the player community, regardless of viability.
Knight is not that strong. Knight is a zoning killer. Most people hate going against zoning killers. Ergo, despite Knight not being that strong, most people are going to hate going against Knight. Two plus two equals four.
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I hate Hag, I despise going against her every time, if I could hit a button to make me never have to play against her ever again i'd set up a macro to smash it 30 times a second.
But she's not OP. I just hate her and her playstyle.
Something doesn't have to be strong to be pure fun vampirism. I don't know why you're incapable of making this connection. Or why you've just decided you know what everyone really thinks.
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I'd like something. Doesn't have to be a dissertation. Just a reason other than, "I have to hold W" or "they have anti-loop." Most are unwilling to even give that. It may be pretentious to say, but it doesn't mean it's not true. I have no shame.
And I ask, who are you to say that their gameplay style is unfun? If you have fun playing as certain killers, and have fun playing against certain killers, why can't you just take that same mindset and apply it to all of them? Nurse I'm not even going to defend, but I will basically every single other killer. You learn the killer's counterplay, employ it, and that's ideally where at least some of your fun comes from, outplaying the opponent. Same thing with killer when you try and counterplay their counterplay. If you find none of that fun, this isn't the game for you, and you shouldn't be giving balance takes. I say this to everyone on here.
I don't think it is most people. You have a loud minority on the forums, and then everyone else who seems to get along just fine with zoning killers. If they hate going against Knight, it sounds like a personal problem. The rest of us are at least going to try to have fun and find counterplay, instead of complaining and claiming bad design.
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Yes, but WHY do you hate going against Hag? Do you not realize that you can trip her traps by spin teching? Or that you can simply have a flashlight and she has no power? Surely you've beaten her before. Have you tried playing her? If she's not OP, then what is it?
I can make the connection if someone will make it make sense, because I guess I like to find out stuff instead of throwing my hands up and deciding, "Yep, that's just the way it is."
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I will happily show you and your squad how OP my man Trapper really is.
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And WOW I had no idea people hated killers for these really stupid reasons. Anxiety from a trap on a window? Hag's traps? Sounds like strict trap hating.
I feel like people be having fun and then they lose to a skilled killer and them BOOM, I better go post some hate on the forums. But anyway...
Lets let them continue. It is interesting, I suppose.
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As a survivor you have 1 "unbeatable" strat against him, holding W. Aside from other good counters. His power really undertunned to the point that survivors only get benefit from it, If he tries to use his ability normally (as devs expected).
Anyone who played him must already know, why you have to use his ability so cheap and poorly (Tap it on the loops).
Me and other people on the "PTB feedback" suggested a really good ideas and changes that will make "tapping" on the loops less viable, but when he uses it as he suppose to, more efficient. But it does will make you feel like you playing against a Spirit, rather Artist. And I'm good with that.
If he come into live with the way he is right now, I'm not going to touch him (maybe only his perks), there is nothing tactical about him when survivors able to see everything about your power, it's boring to go against, boring to play as.
Without addons - D (or maaaaybe C tier) tier, and most hated killer out of all. Hands down.
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People "hate" playing against hag because of these main reasons:
- They lazy to counter it or don't know how to counter it. (Shining flashies, crouching, using "turn back running tech")
- Lack of counter in a chase. (When you chasing a survivor on a trap that they don't know about)
- Hag in most situations don't chase. (She's not going to chase you outside the web, it's not fun (for some reason) for survivors)
- "Proxy camper" stereotype the hag got from placing traps under the hooks. (Even if she don't placing traps under the hook, survivors will still crouch, this is why it's a clear stereotype)
While I'm not going to teach anyone how to have fun, I'm just going to say this: Hag is not op even a slightest, she has at least 5 counters to her ability (she has more tho).
Playing against a Hag main is rough tho, don't get me wrong. but swf with a great communication and teamwork have all the chances to do so.
I'm not sure about soloq tho...
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Cos Killers enjoy looping 🤣
Agree with what you're saying jokes aside
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My dude, that really is just how it is. There doesn't need to be A Reason™. The human mind is full of random and irrational chicanery with no connections or reasoning available or necessary. Hearing people chew sends me into a frothing rage, and I don't have any explanation for that.
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People say that about Dredge but he's still my top killer.
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“If a killer has counterplay, that killer is fun to face.” is the weirdest and just outright worst argument I’ve ever heard in defense of zoning killers being fun.
There can be a whole myriad of reasonings and justifications why a low-tier killer isn’t fun to face, but for the sake of simplicity let’s look at Knight in particular. Let’s look at why I, as well as many and even most people, are going to levy complaints against facing him.
Take Wesker as an example. When Wesker pulls out his tentacle at a loop, it is up to you as a survivor to predict where he is going to go and place yourself in a position where he cannot use his dash to hit you. This requires the ability to outsmart the Wesker player’s positioning using your own predictive skills and a reasonably thorough understanding of how to path within and around the tile in question. Even if you cannot put yourself in a position where he cannot line up a dash, you can try to move in a way that messes up his prediction and causes him to dash in the wrong direction, or at the very least force him to throw you into an area where you won’t be damaged by an object. Wesker’s counterplay is intuitive, skillful, and interesting. Wesker’s counterplay is fun.
Now let’s look at Knight. If you see or hear a Knight pull out a guard, you… hold down a button on your keyboard. That is it. By summoning his guard, Knight shuts down the loop entirely. There is no outsmarting him, there is no superior knowledge, there is no test of skill. You either stay at the loop and get hit, or you press W on your keyboard and win the chase. It is a binary. It has the same depth as choosing between the good or bad ending of a story game, without the benefit of a plot making me care about what’s happening on screen.
Knight pulls out his power at a loop. You hold W. Congratulations, you countered the Knight. But it was not intuitive, it was not interesting, and for those reasons, it was not fun. Knight’s counterplay is not fun because it is extremely bland and shallow. You’re barely even playing a video game at that point. Knight’s counterplay is closer to watching a cutscene than actual gameplay.
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Understanding the counterplay also makes a Killer more fun if the counterplay is fun. For example, those who understand Nurse's power will describe it the same way as you describe Wesker's power. I think versusing both are fun but their powers take more time to fully understand.
I have not tried the PTB but what you described for Knight is the opposite. It does not sound fun although it is very easy to grasp. I hope there's more intricacy to the power when it hits live.
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It cannot be played just like that, it would be boring
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This is something they don't talk about, like at all. The difference in which guard it is... is a huge detail. They just say, "Plant guard at loop and win!"
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I know right???
Like I don't even understand the mindset considering the power description does say that they have different strengths. Doesn't exactly say what they are but its enough to get an idea on how to use them.
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I am honestly confused what some people want from a new Killer.
If the Killer has a chasing oriented power they dislike it because "you can just hold shift+w" and if the Killer has a zoning oriented power they hate it because "no looping = no fun" / "boring".
While I agree that the "tapping the power" style of the Knight is not a good way, I enjoy his zoning style and to outsmart the patrols. Then again stealthy gameplay is also fun for me and hiding from the Killer to wast its time and outsmarting them makes my day.
Saying that looping is the only "fun" part of the game is just too short sighted.
I get that people have subjective feeling but just saying "this style of Killer is no fun" is ignoring the fact that you have more than just looping in this game.
From the other perspective: Buffing the patrols and nerfing the "tap power to trap loop" style would be great. I like the idea of a Killer commanding his minions to establish map control as it is very ambitious. BHVR goes into a good direction here.
I hope they encourage this more.
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He's probably going to be used as a a 3 gen lockdown killer with Eruption. Cool power concept, but the application will be absolutely miserable to play against in all likelihood.
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No dont ever compare wesker with nurse lol last time i checked the ######### that works against wesker doesn't work against nurse
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But yet it does work.
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Ok then go do it against a good nurse, Wesker doesn't blink through walls nor flick like nurse when she finishes blinks which makes dodging her harder since wesker cant really flick that much, Also wesker doesn't travel the same as nurse since nurse has addons to let her blink through half the map, Wesker is literally what if nurse couldn't blink through walls and had actual counterplay in chase.
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Okay, you don't know how to play against Nurse. That's fine. We'll agree to disagree.
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Let me guess. Your Nurse counterplay involves running into the Nurse
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It does not.
Edit: I should add except for if I'm on the second story of a map and the Nurse has charged their blink enough the Nurse has to overshoot or blink into the lower level. In that specific situation, I will.
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Enlighten us them. Is it "going out of line of sight and forcing the Nurse to guess except I forgot she has two blinks?" That's another classic
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No, there's more than enough counterplay out there already described. As your job is literally streaming DbD and you would be facing the top 0.1% of Nurses the issues you would face are not representative of the majority of the player base nor should Db balance around the top 0.1%.
The odds that the poster I replied to is in the top 0.1% of players is also extremely small and I'm tired of seeing threads from people who won't try against Nurse when she's not an issue for the majority of the player base which is where the game balance should be decided.
I'm actually surprised, by the way, you're in here coming across as trolling a thread that wasn't related to you or your videos as you're normally more professional than that. It's kind of disappointing to see.
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It's funny that you think MMR is that consistent.
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That's a fair statement but, to be honest, although I'm sure you're a good player you lost about 20 times in a row as Nurse. I suspect most of your issues come about from playing on PS4 and hardware issues and not your ability but you also know Nurse isn't a play 10 games, win 99% of the time Killer as commonly portrayed.
@ScottJund is an even better player than either of us but that is exactly the reason why outliers shouldn't be used for balancing. @ScottJund , Otz, JRM, etc are all outliers as they're much better than most players will be either due to time spent, inherent ability, or both.
If DbD was set up so the majority of participation was from watching people play, sure, do it. For a game where you participate in it it's important to consider everyone for balancing.
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Actually, I think it was almost forty. Likewise, Xbox One, not PS4.
Also, she makes me extremely motion sick and I can't focus while playing her. If I wasn't handicapped in those ways, I've no doubt that I could win most of my games as Nurse.
On Killers that aren't Nurse I have gone up against some very good players. Not consistently, but you can tell when you're getting put against fair opponents. I've pushed Killers like Blight and Nemesis as far as I can given my hardware limitations and I'm happy with being able to compete with people like Yerv and Tofu, I don't know what my MMR is, but I figure if I can hang in with them, I must be at least competent. All this to say, I know how to play Killer.
Nurse is absolutely too good for this current era of DBD. Maybe she made sense in 2017 or 2018 when I started playing, but it's been a long time since then. Those .01% Nurses? They aren't going against people with 10K hours consistently. If they did, they'd have 30 minute queues. No, they're playing against people with sub-2K hours who they completely decimate.
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They do decimate but my point is that after you substantially pass the mean of experience in DbD you decimate on most of your games on Killer. The inverse is not necessarily true if you play Solo and, in my opinion, that's one of the sources of complaints because you might have been able to get an easy 4E if everyone were at your skill level but your teammates can doom you.
I'm not saying there should not ever be changes to Nurse. My position is that we do not have the data to say Nurse is an issue. We only have anecdotal evidence and any validity there is often obfuscated by the hyperbole surrounding discussions around Nurse.
If Nurse is an issue, then BHVR has the data and will act on it. If not, the constant hyperbole about Nurse is only opinions which would be a lot less tiresome if the hyperbole wasn't presented as fact. There is a huge difference between saying, for example, there is no counterplay and saying I don't think there's sufficient counterplay. One is demonstrably false and the other is an opinion that may or may not be true.
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what about me strikes you as professional looooooooool im a dumbass. either way, when your argument is "the counterplay to nurse is hope they are not good" it comes off a little silly is all.
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So all your saying is that you just have to hope the Nurse is bad?
It took BHVR what, 5 years to nerf DH?
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You're not a dumbass but that's probably just self-deprecating humour. When, though, when facing any Killer does a Survivor not hope they are better than the Killer and hope RNG on maps and pallet spawns favours the Survivors? Nurse does lower the RNG factor but my actual point is that there is counterplay to Nurse. I can offer an opinion on if the counterplay is sufficient but it's just an opinion, nothing else, but so is everyone else's.
Whether there is sufficient counterplay to Nurse is different but the only data we have is that 95% of the playerbase or more doesn't have a disproportionate problem with Nurse. The only data we have is incomplete and doesn't tell the full story but it is the only data we have. If there is a disproportionate problem with Nurse then it's in the very top of MMR, which it could very well be, but I'm not in the top 5% of MMR and think that while the top 5% should be considered they should not be the sole consideration.
What does affect more than 5% of the playerbase is people who DC as soon as they see a Killer they don't like and all the hyperbole surrounding Nurse just adds to the issue. If the quitters would just fricking try they would find a lot of games where they doomed their teammates are actually quite winnable (and occasionally the Killer was farming anyway so it was a guaranteed escape with lots of BP).
For myself, I can say I'm quite comfortable with the Nurses I face. I'm not facing the top Nurses but I'm also not a top survivor nor am I in a SWF. If there are changes needed and to be made then I'd like the changes to be done in a way that addresses the problem without diminishing the enjoyment of the people who are playing the Killer casually. For myself, I'd rather face a Nurse or Blight anyday than a camping Ghostface although I escape a lot more against Ghostface. The game is just more exciting against the Nurse or Blight in that example.
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