Should Hooks Be Destroyed When Survivors Are Sacrificed?
I say no.
Hooks being destroyed punishes killers for accomplishing their goal.
And, it encourages slugging due to lack of hook options. (Played Midwich recently?)
But what about Scourge Hooks?
If it's solo queue, you're doomed anyway, since no one has any idea what anyone else is doing. Unless someone brings Kindred, you don't even know if anyone is going for a standard hook save. So, for a more complicated scenario (a Scourge Hook), there's no way to communicate that to anyone else on the team.
If it's SWF, survivors will figure out the killer is using certain (Scourge) hooks and will try to avoid getting downed near them.
Plus, let's face it, if the killer is getting multiple downs/hooks, the trial is probably lost anyway.
I'm curious to see what the community thinks.
(This is also a game mechanic that needs to be evaluated before Unbreakable ever becomes basekit.)
Comments
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Yeah nah
Outdatted mechanic that needs to go, and as you mentioned it becomes even more outdatted with the Finisher Mori and Basekit Unbreakable
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yes it creates deadzones just like breaking pallets does for survivors, hooks are resources and resources should be depleted throughout the game
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It should go away. Yep. Mmmmhmmmm.
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Yes. There would be no risk for killers since they'd just have infinite hooks with no worry of making deadzones. That would take away a piece of what little strategy and resource management goes into killer gameplay.
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only real gameplay effects i can think of on maps with non stupid hook rng is like
Makes a 3 gen weaker if a killer deathhooks someone in it
Removes scourge hook
tbh this is a super non issue kinda thing.
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i think it should stay because it require skill to avoid dead zones, but they should add an offering to change / exchange that mechanic.
it also requires skill on the survivor side to see possible dead zones in the first place and only SWF can realy benefit from it.
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Then they should have done this also regarding basekit bt (it promotes bad gameplay since you should be punished and not rewarded for doing a save while the killer is still near) or with the upcoming patch (if your entire team is slugged, the fault is only yours for staying in the same point all together... little exception when the killer is a god player nurse with her best addons and infectious fright). I see only double standard here tbh
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What's this about "killers shouldn't create dead zones for themselves"? The killer doesn't decide where the survivor runs off to, and neither can the killer choose where to hook the survivor, the wiggle timer is literally 15 secs.
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You actually can herd survivors, but also the killer decides where they down people, and chooses between multiple hooks, if hooks dont break you could pick your 3 gen and never leave and always use the same hook all match.
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I think Because scourge hooks exist now it should still remove hooks when survivors are sacrificed.
It would be annoying and a bit unfair if you could continue to use a scourge hook after a survivor have been used on them
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I don't feel like it's a problem unless map generation just forgets to spawn hooks in an area and survivors aggressively make use of that.
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is fine as it is, its like if survivors asked for a pallet to recreate itself after broken... makes 0 sense, hooks are resources and resources can be wasted
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It's good that they get destroyed , it diversifies the gameplay. More risk , more thinking etc.. A bit of a deadzone is good because survivors have a teammate less. Given the number of hooks in a map I would not consider it a major issue. Often if not most of the time one can reach the next hook. Also the basement hooks are permanent too. So putting folks in there makes sure that deadzones will be less prominent whenever available.
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Eh, this isn't true. If a survivor locates the hook deadzone and runs there every time he hears the terror radius as a killer you can't do anything.
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It's a pretty obsolete mechanic that can be done away with. It's particularly problematic on certain maps like Midwich, RPD, and Lery's. Some other maps RNG can get wild, too.
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Deadzoning through broken hooks is the killer's version of 3-genning. Either both go or both stay.
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I think it's fine that you have to think a little about where to hook but it should never be impossible to hook someone IF you played correctly. Midwich is the only map I can think of that punishes you even if you perfectly planned what hooks to break.
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If the Killer can reach a Scourge Hook so often, they can also reach a different Hook than the closest. Meaning, it is possible for Killers to go for a different Hook than the closest one. The only time I see an area without ANY Hooks is when the Killer hooked multiple people in the same area, which 100% can be avoided by not picking the closest Hook, but one more in the center of the Map.
The same way like Survivors are responsible for 3-Gens and Deadzones, Killers are responsible for Hook-Deadzones. If they dont want to use a few braincells to not create a Deadzone for themselves (again, they can totally be avoided), then it is up to them if they messed up.
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1) Midwich wants to know your location
2) Also RPD
3) Also sabo squads want you to come to the center of the map more
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What kind of comparison is that? And if the survivor's death causes the 1 hook in an area to be broken, and the others go down there on purpose so you can't hook them? "Killer's fault" or not, which is extremely faulty logic, the killer just has to accept that they can no longer progress their objective under those conditions?
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Why should there be risk in hooking a survivor, which is the killer's objective? Y'all are honestly so entitled without realizing it. Controversial opinion I know, but if the killer gets a down they should get a hook. There's so much strategy, map management, mental juggling, and on-the-fly thinking that goes into playing with killer. You just sound like you're in a different reality with that statement.
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Oh really? So if you did a gen in a certain part of the map, you're disabled from doing the other gens in that part of the map, and that's fair? If not, what's with the double standard? The killer has to hook. They should not have to be so mindful in where they're hooking people, if they're not even intent on camping that person, on top of everything else they have to mentally juggle. Even if killers should be expected to do that, what's to stop a survivor from purposefully going down in an area where the killer's forced to break a good hook that will lead to a deadzone later on? You can't exactly control where the survivors go down.
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People with more words or fewer words, it's all the same. Y'all can't logically explain why the killer has to get punished for hooking people which they have to do to kill them. How is it a skill issue or a mindfulness issue for the killer? And no, it doesn't take any skill for a survivor to see a destroyed hook and go down under it so the killer can't hook them, even though they're the ones who screwed up.
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This argument I will never understand. "The killer can use the same hook all match." So what? The survivors are literally unaffected by that, same death time on hook, same chance to unhook their teammate, same everything. It's not as if the killer can walk across the map with a survivor on there shoulder to get that same hook every time. That's what the wiggle meter is for, which creates this entire issue. Also wrong, that you can herd survivors, because I've attempted to herd survivors many times away from strong loops, and low and behold they went to them anyway.
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I'm just gonna stop arguing on this topic, because I've said my part, and y'all can't come up with any intelligent reason why hooks need to break after death and deny the killer their objective. All y'all have is claiming that it never happens, somehow makes killer more skillful, or false comparisons about resources.
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Hook RNG is still really badly designed and having hooks be destroyed on sacrifice contributes in no meaningful nor positive way to the balance and gameplay loop. It is an outdated mechanic that has no place in the game anymore.
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Thats just asking killers to bleed survivors out. Which is kinda boring for both sides.
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you always get so personal. it's a game, not everything has to be logical but in general it should be fair for everyone.
hooks are the killer's resources. actually the only resource he has to watch out for. usually the hooks are so close together that he can just grab the next one. Much like survivors must be careful not to produce a 3 gene, the killer must be careful not to generate a dead zone. even the auras of all nearby hooks are shown to him, so that after a short turn he can see whether there is a danger of a dead zone. survivors, on the other hand, must memorize the position of each hook if they want to achieve the same thing.
I agree with everyone that on some maps it is not possible to avoid this. however, these maps generally have a balance problem and should be revised for both sides.
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Ok after reading some of your replies, lets see how you feel about a parallel.
Hooks no longer break permanently, they temporarily break for 60 seconds after a survivor dies on them. This is a pretty fair representaion of a suggested solution for this situation.
When gens get completed they are blocked for 60 seconds and then are able to be completed again, starting from 0 charges. This would be the same thing for survivors forcing killers to essentially patrol 7 gens all match long and eliminating the issue of 3 gens, because why should survivors be punished for doing their objective?
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Rest assured, BHVR is hard at work looking for more ways to increase the kill rate. We don't need to help them find things.
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Outdated mechanic that creates uncounterable situations. One thing is a 3 gen where you can still brute force it to break it, another completely different thing is a hook dead zone where the only thing you can do is let the survivor bleed out for 4 minutes which can't even be called gameplay.
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Problem with that, is that Survivors limited resources aren't their primary objective
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I'm fine eith hooks being destroyed. If a killer tunnels someone out rapidly then the rest of the game is pretty much a forgone conclusion. I think there should be a way to shift the game balance as the game progresses. Make life easier for survs as others get sacrificed and easier for killer as more gens are done.
So far destroying hooks is the only thing that helps survivors if one of them dies.
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There’s no logical reason that this mechanic still exists. Killers have no control over hook RNG, nor do you really have control over where survivors run/get downed. Hooks can already be saboed, we don’t need the game to do this automatically. Especially considering that survivors will purposely crawl to corners which will force you waste everyone’s time to bled them out.
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There are some very solid reasons in this thread, friend. They just don't match up with your view about Killers. Maybe it's entitlement. Oh, the irony. Since your replies tend to be strawman, and don't actually debate to address the main point, I'll just leave you with this. If survivors have to account for generator placement in their gameplay, then it's fair killers have to do the same for hooks. Should generators just be spread out even more to prevent 3-gens? You just sound unhinged and out-of-touch in these posts.
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If they crawl to an unhookable corner they are really only wasting ther own time unless its the last survivor, in which case go close hatch and come back and see if they want to get hooked, if not let them wiggle out and have another chase before the game ends.
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I find it funny that this conversation is happening, I literally just played a match where a ghostface downed two people and stood between their hooks because they were so close to each other.
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Those two aren't even remotely the same, the entire thing about gens being done permanently is that there are up to 4 survivors but only 1 killer. They can't pressure the entire map at once, even killers with kits that are better than average at multitasking/global map pressure.
The issue with hooks is, like others have mentioned, hooks being gone entirely is bad for survivors as well, since it encourages slugging/bleeding out by simple necessity. I do think hooks shouldn't be gone forever, but in terms of a compromise I would offer that if a survivor wiggles off, the hook that has been broken the longest gets restored; that way sabo squads can't do something like break a hook just before someone wiggles off to break the logic. It punishes killers for repeatedly using the same hook, but only once rather than indefinitely to prevent that from being exploited by survivors.
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They did Hangman's trick dirty with the nerf to it. It used to respawn broken hooks from sacrifices at one point. While I don't think it should be a base game mechanic, I did think how that perk handled it was fine.
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It's up to killers to manage their hooks. I vote the feature stays. If survivors have to avoid three-gens and creating deadzones for themselves, then killers can avoid creating hook dead zones.
Some maps should have their hook distribution looked at, like Midwich and RPD, and other maps like Badham should have guaranteed hooks in the corners to prevent survivors just running to a RNG-created deadzone, but the hook breaking on sacrifice feature should stay.
If hooks don't break on death, then perma-sabo should return. See how much y'all enjoy being forced to run Iron Grasp/Agitation every time because you can only hook in the basement.
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I agree with this assessment. The analogy of the hook dead-zone and a three-gen fits imo. Of course, the often horrid hook placements on Midwich or any where else should be addressed first.
I also like the idea of an offering making Scourge Hooks unbreakable, adding a little umphh to running those perks. Maybe make those offerings secret as well.
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It’s a waste of everyone’s time. They wiggle out and then run right back to the same corner. Forcing me to bleed them out and/or wait out the EGC is annoying af and only happens because of this hook mechanic. It’s dumb.
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Just stare at them and keep them in the corner cuts the time in half if they just stand there, you can also plan ahead and not use up all your hooks in the same area. Thise players also take less time to bleed out in endgame because you probably already had been slugging them during the match
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"not use up all your hooks in the same area", "probably already had been slugging them"
very unbiased take. Play killer more and you'll see how the hook spawn distance methodology breaks regularly on multiple maps, especially any with obstructed pathways (which breakable doors added to nearly all of them.) It doesn't always happen, and there will always be people who use it as an excuse when its not the case, but the RNG is certainly a relevent factor on many maps.
Not only that, but "hook management" is a bit of a loaded concept if two people go down in the exact same place where that hook is the only one in reach, no? Wasn't that a big part of the issue in areas like RPD's library, where only 1 hook was reachable even without boil over? Its just another issue for the pile concerning issues with map generation.
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That is the dumbest comparison I have seen.Survivors don’t have a certain amount of time to do a gen before they have to start all over like a killer carrying a survivor to a hook.Add in boil over or hook offerings and it can be almost impossible to get to a hook on quite a few maps.
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I play plenty of both sides buddy, and for the record almost never have issues with survivors being unhookable due to broken hooks, breakdown/sabo squads maybe but I manage my hooks so it really isnt an issue 99% of the time.
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There's no "strategy" in this. You can't choose where you want to hook survivors because of the wiggle mechanic. If all survivors go down in the same corner of Midwich where there's only a single hook available what "resource management" am I supposed to do lmao
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Not true if the killer is kicking and running regression perks especially in a 3 gen. Also much like survivors putting themselves into a 3 gen, killers create their own hook deadzones.
Not to even get into the fact that the only thing that survivors get out of a teammate being killed is 1 less hook on the map, while the killer gets a huge advantage.
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You missed my point in that your experience does not invalidate the experiences of others. If you've never had a game where RNG caused a hook desert and survivors figured that out, either your sample size is small or you're incredibly lucky. Even though you even admit "99%" instead of "100%."
No need to be defensive when all I'm asking is for you to not let your personal experiences cloud your judgement to the potential experiences of others, instead of using extremely loaded wording and reasoning to dismiss them. You also ignored my point about the RPD library, which can still be a concern on maps like midwitch and badham if you didn't waste time (and sometimes opened new loops in the process) breaking specific doors. The core of the issue is that the logic is distance based and not pathing based, so there's no point in using your anecdotes to tell people they're wrong for having worse luck than you.
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If you get a Gen to 99,equivalent of picking up survivor ,and you let it regress all the way back to 0,equivalent of losing survivor because of no hook,that is completely on survivor.not even good comparison.gen regression takes way longer than the time a killer has to get a survivor to hook.
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