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COH and Dead hard still being issiues. Your thoughts?
After peanits comment on my other thread, im encouraged to give it another try all though my last post about Shattered hope when it released wasnt getting any notice. So i kinda gave up on balancing discussions.
Mainly i want to see what the overall playerbase thinks. I could do a poll for it but i think it would be better to have an open conversation, why yes or no and what good suggestions we might come up with for nerfs or reworks.
Because i think COH and DH still need nerfs.
Why do they need nerfs in the first place?
-> Circle of Healing because its infinite. I would say shattered hope should be basekit, hexes are high risk, mid/low reward most of the time, it would be fair and square if boons were the same, if not, then at least have counts to them. A max of 2 or 3 for all boons, infinite just is too strong. Or just nerf COH solely and let the other boons be as they are, i just feel they can get abused as much all though they get less used than COH. (looking at you exponential)
-> Dead hard provides a loose loose scenario no matter what. A killer can and will adapt to baiting it out/not fall for 360 into DH tactics etc. But by all adapting there is, its still a loose loose scenario. No matter if you mindgame it or fall for it, you loose time. Every second counts, maybe not if you play the nurse but most if not all M1 killers can not spend any seconds for free. Also Auto DH is a thing and needs to be dealt with.
So much for my reasoning why COH and DH need nerfs. How to nerf them? what exactly? maybe you have an idea if you agree on the topic in the first place.
Comments
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I disagree, since they both have been nerfed many times.. can’t believe people STILL complain about Dead Hard 🙄
I bet you want the perks to get nerfed into the ground and would still complain about, Killer main boi.
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CoH is a weird one because its effect, whilst the only boon that rewards showing up nowhere near the Killer (and thus can be put down in safety), isn't too extreme except for hit and run, it's still common enough that it makes hex perks dead in the water.
Like, as long as CoH is good enough to see regular use, it makes an entire class of Killer perks even more useless by proxy
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Lmao one of the nerfs to CoH made it take 2 seconds longer to heal. WOW what a nerf
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Not this again.
Both perks are mostly. Dead Hard is fine as it rewards skill and have a decent counter.
Circle of healing is mostly fine possibly could use a rework. Possibly a change to boons as a whole
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Just calm down sir. It's fine as is now.
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Sir you cannot disagree. Disagreeing is bad
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I have no issues with either perks. I ignore CoH most of the time, because even though hag is one of my 2 mainkillers, it just almost never an issue for me.
DH is just the same, most of the time it doesnt do too much, but seldem it does and it becomes a problem for the pressure in that match. However, if it does nothing all the time, its no use anyway.
Isee the issue, but in my matches its not too common at all, but if you got really god survivors, it amplifys the problem you run into. Still, the perk needs to have some use, so what changes would you propose to tune it down but still keep it viable?
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I think Dead Hard is fine.
Boons are just a bad idea in general but I think CoH is in an....acceptable spot balance-wise.
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CoH is only problematic because SWF can juice the perk. But other than that, it's not too bad.
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No, i don't think that DH is that unfair, because there are still quite a good amount of counters to a survivor who can time their DH perfectly, even if you're playing with a telegraphed power like wesker's or pyramid head's. Examples: VPN, network limiter, not chasing them, etc. You might increase your ping and lower your gameplay quality but that survivor's gonna have a hard time timing their DH against a teleporting killer.
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CoH grating infinite value is as poor of an argument as hexes also doing so. There is an opportunity cost to setting boons up that is often overlooked and might be the cause of a lost match.
The one situation where CoH can be decisive is when the killer holds a 3 gens and cannot afford to snuff the totem on the other side of a map such as Azarov's. Frankly, I find that stalemate boring but at least CoH allows survivors to fight back.
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Yeah, setting up boons can take time. It really is about decision making in that instance "Do I try to find a boon or work on a gen".
I've had Mikaela's who only started playing the game after 1-2 minutes passed cause they were looking for a totem (they didn't even bring a helping perk), and if it gets snuffed, now she's gonna have to look for another hour.
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CoH is fine imo. I just don't think all of your boons should be on the same totem. You should only have1 boon perk per totem blessed.
For DH they should slightly increase the range of the dash and remove endurance, if you get hit during DH you lose health state(s)
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The amount of time a survivor spends booning is really nothing. The killer having to go out of his way to snuff it can basically cost a match though
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Oh yeah, that skillful play of camping a pallet and pressing E if the killer swings or pressing space to drop the pallet and stun the killer. Truly a skillful perk. Also, that counter of losing in that situation since the killer is scewed either way since all choices you have leads to prolonging a chase even longer. DH is and always will be a get-out-of-jail-free card for survivors. To this day I still hate the perk bc it's damn annoying. I rather go against 4 sprint bursts than 4 "nerfed" DHs anyday.
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Adapt honey
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I still like those who say DH requires skill and its fine now. Like yeah the nerf made it slightly harder to use but that doesn't change the fact it can be easily used in a way that has no real counter from the killer and put a killer in a lose/lose(especially an m1 killer). I hate when I'm chasing someone with dh and they heading towards or camping a pallet and make me have to choose to swing or not swing. No matter what I do I lose because I either eat the DH and they use the speed boost to get to another loop(prolonging the chase) or I don't swing and they just drop the pallet in my face or I get stunned (prolonging the chase). There really is no mind game to that. What do you suppose to do in that situation? No matter what you do the chase gets prolonged and more gens pop in the background. The only time I say DH is a skillful perk is when it is used to bait a hit in the open. I applaud a survivor who uses it like that bc I know if I swing it's my fault and a deserve to be punished in that situation. To this day I still rather go against 4 sprint bursts on any killer than 4 DHs. DH will always be a get-out-of-jail-free card and be an annoying ass perk to go against.
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DH is fine as it is. I'm just grateful they changed it to what it is now. I was on the verge of quitting this game seeing 3 to 4 dead hard uncounterable for distance every game screwing me out of downs.
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Deadhard is just as strong as before at prolonging a chase or squeezing more rotations out of a loop. At some point a killer has no choice but to swing at a pallet or window and can't wait to bait out DH or they give the survivor even more time.
The FOV teching is problematic also because if done correctly it can easily cause you to be completely blind to the animation and if you happen to swing then there's a good chance you'll spend the next 2 seconds spinning to track which direction they went due to the speed burst, which can basically mean another tile or window.
On top of that it's basically the easiest perk in game that is open to automated hacks and it happens a lot. I've definitely seen a huge increase in the success rate of players timing deadhard perfectly since it's been changed. Prior to the changes a survivor could barely hold off for 5 seconds and now all of a sudden they have nerves of steel and can time it perfectly regardless if you try and bait it or not.
I also don't like that it renders some killers powers almost useless like Wraith & Pig. Pretty sure other killers suffer more than others also.
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You just bait it bro, it's fine now!
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lol ok, I bite how you do bait it at a pallet?
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Bro, if you got hit with Dead Hard, you got outplayed!
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Man nice advice, man... I ask you a question and you reply like that. You are really really helpful. Thank man...
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DH is fine it's just can frustrating to play against i do hope they just full change COH tho
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DH is okay. I see a lot of survivors hold it until they're about to vault, but if you can expect that you can kill them easily since they're screwed after that. They usually look behind them before they go to vault. The only issue I've seen is them holding it at a short pallet where the only way to get a hit is to lunge across. BUT since you have to be movng to use DH now, just pay attention if they're spinning or something. Plus it's not much of a distance gain since they have to vault the pallet and basically waste a chunk of their speed burst.
COH, on the other hand, will never be balanced as it is. That, or heal speeds are addressed properly.
Either way, having a healing beacon that only one person needs to bring for the entire team to benefit is harsh. Normally it ends up in a place outside of your gens. So far that if you go to break it you give them free gen time and if you don't you can't build any meaningful pressure. THAT is a lose/lose.
My suggestion for it would be allowing a certain amount of healing charges before it runs out. Make it so healing together in the boon is encouraged. At least something that doesn't allow it to stall games forever. DBD has had a long history of releasing things that punish the first person to make a move. And this is one of them.
Having the team just alternate from healing themselves for a few seconds and coming back to swarm gens is a stale gameplay loop. If the survivors get chased too long they risk giving the killer pressure, so they run to the boon on the other side of the map. If the killer commits to breaking the boon, it comes back up in a couple of seconds and they lose their gen defense.
The sad part about it too is I love the concept of boons. COH just outclasses all of them in utility. It's the only type of perk that encourages survivors to play parts of the map rather than run wild.
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What, this again? I'm kind of surprised this keeps getting so much attention.
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I hate DH. it's still too easy to use agaisnt way too many powers. It still creates uncounterable scenarios. it's marginally harder to use, but the value it gives is so immense for what is still very basic mechanical skill input from the user that I just can't get behind it.
It's just one of those "getting outplayed doesn't matter to me lol" things in the game, and i wish we had fewer of those just in general on both sides.
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COH: you also have to consider how long it takes to find a totem on certain maps. because unlike blessed boons, dull totems or hex totems are silent and make no sound. one shouldn't forget that the wounded first have to walk to the COH boon and don't sit at the generator during this time. it's not like the wounded suddenly stop being useful. At least when you're out of the children's shoes mmr area. I've also seen some killers use knowledge of where a COH boon is to find wounded people in the healing circle. this is particularly important in 3 gen situations.
DH: as soon as the auto DH scripts stop working, many problems will solve themselves. even as a survivor i'am often surprised in which situations other teammates time their DH perfectly.
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Dead hard and CoH are fine.
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DH became some kind of third health state. I have a feeling that survs can play even more aggressive with it now. You still wait it out and bait and still lose the same amount of time. Was it nerf?
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I don’t know why you are adding auto-Dead Hard into the equation when that isn’t an intended feature and thus has no relevance on balance.
Also no DH does not need a nerf. It is more than fine the way it is.
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both perks are fine after their deserved nerfs ,,,circle is problem for hit and run playstyles only
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Well it kinda does have relevance since the only reason auto deadhard exists is because of bad perk design. You never seen auto deadhard being used before because it wasn't exploitable in the same way i.e if someone used auto DH they would most likely just get stuck against a wall or something.
New DH is effectively just the same as going from healthy to injured so it's really very easy to control with a hack & very very easy to mask as normal play.
If a perks design is the sole reason that it becomes exploitable then it's relevant to why it's a problem.
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Dead Hard is still meta cause its too good. bHVR must know their meta nerf didnt work and we still see Dead Hard multiple times ever match.
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2 things need to happen to COH.
Firstly the healing time should be at least on par with self care. It makes absolutely no sense that such a strong team wide perk is faster than self care.
Secondly there should be a penalty for individual players for consecutive blessings. Going up in increments of 14 seconds for every blessing. I'm sick of snuffing out totems and literally hearing that blessing tone straight away like 5-6 times in a game. That way you have to make a tactical decision on when to use it. Do you waste your cool downs early or do you save it to mid game where it matters more? Currently you don't have to think at all, just remember where the first totem you found was and infinite free heals with zero consequence.
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Dead Hard is fine. Not including auto-DH because cheats don’t define balance.
CoH was a bad idea from its conception. The fact that an infinite healing tool can be infinitely replanted is just stupid. Fundamentally.
I hate how the survivor gets to decide where it goes, opposed to the killer having to rely on RNG. To add to that is that taking a boon out doesn’t mean much. Just plonk it back down in the control room of Ironworks, as if 16 seconds is so much time wasted for survivors.
No strategy needed whatsoever.
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Idk how to change DH, but I know how I'd change CoH.
1. Revert the heal speed bonus to 100% BUT make it only apply to altruistic heals.
2. Injured survivor within the boon's radius are revealed to all other survivors (this is to help coordinate heals in solo queue).
3. Remove the ability to self heal at 50% speed.
And done.
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No.
Dead Hard is still a strong and annoying perk but it isnt as ridiculously OP as before.
COH is still strong, but the nerfs reduced its popularity a lot, you no longer see 2-3 COH every match as before, so still annoying but less frequent and less OP.
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Dead Hard is a you problem. Its on you to remember who has it. It's on you to bait it out. You're not gonna kill every survivor.
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The gripe most killers have with DH is a basic design problem: it feels really counterintuitive and "unfun" to have a survivor cornered or in the open right before you and yet, you can't just freely swing and down them, because you don't know their exhaustion perk. A killer being afraid to swing and, well kill, is somewhat strange.
Imagine if you had to do some kinda voodoo dance every time you repaired a gen for the first time, just to check if it wasn't warded and you end up getting wounded for no reason. It would get old pretty fast, and thats what waiting and checking and baiting every single survivor feels like.
Besides that, yeah, DH is as fair as it gets and it definitely never was in a better state then now. Its just a fundamentally design problem that will never sit well with a part of the player base. Every other exhaustion perk has a limited condition or activation requirement thats not always available, while getting wounded is always there on your way to getting hooked. DH is always available when the situation for the survivor is the most dire, ie they are wounded and maybe even in out in the open. You can't summon a window in that situation for Lithe, but you can 180° into the killer and they have to decide whether to swing or not.
I personally am lost myself: I know that DH is at its best is ever has been, yet I despise the meta aspect of having to give every single survivor a couple of free seconds of hesiation "just in case". This is what makes DH the ultimate meta exhaustion perk: every single survivor profits from it, no matter if they got it equipped, and this will never change with its status as a parry feature. The single most overtuned killer perk, Eruption, is a far cry away from such a meta status. Imagine if every single survivor let go of their gens prematurely 10-15s before they anticipate someone going down in a chase, just because they don´t know if Eruption is in play, yet. Heck, even if they know that its in play, a lot of players won't risk wasting 10s on a hitch and just eat the 25s should it happen.
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:: made it so it takes a whopping 2 seconds longer to heal ::
Yeah a real fine nerf
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DH hits should apply Deep wound. This would make it more realistic to taking a hit.
‘The burst from taking a DH hit is annoying that they get a bunch of distance. Before it was a short distance and everyone complained “dead-hard for distance” but no one mentions the distance they get now…….
Devs - add Deep wound to DH and I’ll never complain about it again. At least this would give some effect from taking that hit instead of continuing like nothing happened and you got a ton of distance to the next safe spot. Now your vision is being messed up making continuing being chased more difficult.
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CoH is fine imo.
Dead Hard is a perk I simply really dislike so nerf/rework/deletion is welcome in my book.
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I put this question out to all who say "just bait out DH." How do you bait it out at a pallet? I asked this question to someone on this thread and all I got was a smart-ass remark "if you get hit with DH you were outplayed" even though I legit asked a legit question. I know in the open the way you deal with DH is to not swing when the survivor tries to bait you to swing by running into you but if they are at a pallet or about to get to the pallet how do avoid that situation? The reason I ask is this is how most of the survivors I have seen use DH. They use it at pallets where they know a killer has really no choice. Swing eat the DH, or don't swing pallet drops on the killer or in the killer's face. The outcome is the same in both choices. That is why I ask, How do yall "bait" DH there and befit you as a killer and not the survivor?
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Er... they do? DH gives you Endurance. Tanking a hit with Endurance applies Deep Wound. That's why it doesn't work if you already have DW.
DH has pretty much no counterplay if you DH into a pallet. If you swing, you eat a DH. If you don't, you eat a pallet stun. It's the same lose-lose scenario that DH originally created, but in a different way. Whether you think it's fine or not, you have to acknowledge that's very frustrating to go against.
Furthermore, sitting at someone's back, waiting for them to DH is extremely annoying. Wraith can bait it out with his bell, but other killers don't have that option. They sit at your back playing a game of, "Do they have DH? Are they going to DH? What's going to happen?" Which, again, is frustrating.
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Im glad to see many people share my concerns with COH and DH.
I have seen so many good suggestions on COH, from tokens, to just make it so team healing speeds are higher but self heal is even lower, then Shattered hope basekit. Circle of Healing CAN be balanced, it just needs some more tweaking.
Now i have seen some mentioning how DH is a design issiue, which is true. I dont like that survivors have basicly 3 health states all though they played extremely poor, now i gotta wait if they have DH or not, which might give them just enough time to reach that pallet or vault. The never ending reasoning seems to be "just bait it out" so.. As Blue Rose keeps asking, how to bait it in a situation like that? Survivor cornered, 1 vault is near in lets say Gideon. Without DH, you could down them easy, with DH, its a saftey net, either swing or dont swing, they gonna reach that vault. If you swing they have a boost anyway, if you dont, you can deal with them still having DH aviable on the next loop.
So all you DH defenders who clearly play killer alot: what do you do in these situations? genuine question, i want to know the counterplay, then i will stop complaining about DH. Dont answer with "bait it out" give a real answer, something i can make use of. Also Auto DH is very rightfully mentioned here as we have to deal with it BECAUSE of the rework, because now its super easy to hide to a point where it makes you question yourself if it really was Auto DH or just good play. Which should not be, no player should question themselves because they dont know if the other side is cheating or not. _> Poor design. But others have explained this very topic before alredy.
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Jeez y’all are really still complaining about dead hard??
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Strong perks, yes. issues? no i don't think so.
Dead Hard rework was one of the better ones as it took away the problematic side of the perk but still left the end result something worth playing. It's not the press e to win perk anymore. It takes some kind of thought.
Common complaints is that when a survivor does it at a pallet it's a lose lose for the killer. First of all, not entirelly true as there is a small window between the dead hard and the getting stunned that you can hit them. But even disregarding that. A sprint burst ready in a deadzone also is a "lose lose" for the killer, a survivor with lithe right next to a vault too. Almost all other exhaustion perks have situations where the survivor will get it off 100% so why is that so much worse for dead hard?
It being tied to the endurance system also means they have to disregard other strong perks for it and some killers can completely circumvent it with their power. All killers can disable it by hitting the survivor of hook.
I feel people are just looking at it still being used a lot and draw their conclusions there but i think dead hard is used a lot not because it's the strongest exhaustion perk but cause it's the funnest. It has interaction with the killer instead of the enviroment and there are not a lot of other exhaustion perks like that.
As for CoH I also don't think it's not really a issue anymore.
You have to spend a lot of time to make CoH work. 14 seconds for blessing a totem+ 24 seconds for a heal is not a good number for your first heal. Ofcourse the longer the totem stays up the better but with todays meta of CoB and Overcharge your gen you were working on is going to have lost all progress by the time you ran to your safe haven, healed and ran back. Even without those perks you lose quite a decent amount of progress. It can still be strong when the killer doesn't commit but it's not nearly as effective as it used to be.
A lot of time people lose and blame CoH i feel like they would have lost regardless of CoH and they probably would have lost faster.
Do i lose matches because of these perks sometimes. Well yeah. I lost some kills to slippery meat too once. They are still strong if used right. But they are nowhere near as unfair as before.
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My understanding has always been that DH's big issue was Dead Hard For Distance. The "third health state" seemed less an issue to me as that was the premise of the perk.
For that reason my thought to change it was "you only get the distance if you actually take a hit". Current Dead Hard basically does exactly that, so I can't complain.
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All these people saying it's fine, it's a you problem, you got outplayed etc etc are obviously playing against potato survivors.
Everyone knows deadhard is easy to bait out in the open. When you put deadhard into a skilled players hands and they use it to extend loops or extend chases is where the problem lies. It's exactly why it was nerfed in the first place and now it's just as bad as before in a skilled survivors hands, especially if a SWF is running multiple DH.
There is literally no difference between old DH on getting that extra loop & new dead hard getting that extra loop. They just work differently.
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