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Should Eruption even be nerfed?
Many are calling for Eruption nerfs out of a knee-jerk reaction, but I support BHVR taking their usual wait and see approach on this. For instance, Dead Hard was also 'uncounterable' when used for distance, but was unchanged for 1819 days. I think Eruption should also be given about the same, small amount of time, about 5 years in this state to see if it's really that bad.
I mean, it's performing very well and is pretty fun to verse and play as long as they aren't doing the boring genrush cheese. It's got insane value and rewards good chases, pretty decent slowdown without being OP or oppressive with how you need to go around kicking first, crazy perk synergy with COB, Aura read on gen kick, overcharge and other gen perks, and even has a passive incapacitated mechanic that if not handled makes it able to keep a 99% done gen at bay for a while! It's amazingly useful and although it's a bit weaker when against the mythical 4 man tournament SWF that nobody ever sees, on almost all levels of play it's more than just okay, it's actually pretty dang strong! Even at high MMR (top 5%!) it's still one of the best perks statistically. And this is just anecdotal, but Eruption killers seem to do pretty well in my games.
I don't mean to be inflammatory, but part of me wonders if the reason why survivor mains are so negative about it, saying it's game-breaking even, is just that they're used to mindlessly holding m1 and using second chance perks that practically win the chase for them or ignore key aspects of gameplay, such as Dead Hard, Off the Record, Decisive Strike, etc. Eruption actually requires skill to do well with as it is entirely macro game and relies on good game sense on when to kick gens and on quick chases. If you're used to burning gens with Prove Thyself without paying attention of course you won't do well with it, but with practice, I think it's WAY more counterable than people give it credit for. And way more healthy and fun for the game than the old meta of Ruin Undying.
What do you think? Are survivors being too harsh? Or does the regression itself being meh really overshadow the incapacitated? All I'm saying is that I see why they're being careful before any changes to it are made, if they're even needed. I think they should let the perk as it stands sit for a while.
Comments
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No, there's nothing OP about it. 20 seconds isn't that long and it's miniscule regression bonus yet people still crying.
I swear some players of this game want the killer to just stand there every match
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Yes it should
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I mean i think it is way to strong but I kinda like your passive aggressive comparison at the beginning because technically no survivor can argue against that point
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...Is this a copypasta? It reads like a copypasta.
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Not nerfed, tweaked to have counterplay
Again nobody can disprove the fact that even if you know a generator has eruption on it, there is no correct play. You have to either stop being productive while a teammate is being chased (bad) or stay on the generator and get hit with it (also bad)
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Of course not. It's not a very strong perk (except maybe against beginners who don't know perks yet).
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No I love being forced to doing nothing for 25 seconds because a team mate went down.
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I genuinely think they should try going back to 16 seconds of Incapacitated. Still impactful, but not nearly as annoying.
Before the 6.1.0 patch, Eruption was generally considered decent but not amazing with 6% regression and 16 seconds or Incapacitated. People weren't really bothered by the Incapacitated (partly because the perk wasn't used very often in the former meta, but partly because 16 seconds just doesn't FEEL nearly as bad as 25 seconds).
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I think the incapacitated status is the main issue with the perk. Personally I see long durations of incapacitation that can't be removed by completing some other actions as inherently problematic for the game.
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I can see people’s argument of no counter play, however does everything need counter play? There are literally tons of things in this game that don't have counter play. Instead of counter play things can have downsides or skill requirements. For example, current DH has no counter play as they can activate in your weapon lunge time which is why you can see killers literally wait out 10+ seconds on the survivors back and they still get it off timed correctly. Did this require a lot of skill in the timing from the survivor? Yes it did, but there wasn’t actually counter play from the killer there. The killer is just hoping for the survivor to mess up and use it early. Does Empathy need counter play? No, it doesn’t. It’s just an okay effect that isn’t too strong to warrant a counterplay. Eruption has the downside of having to waste time kicking all the gens you want it to effect, risking the chance of that being wasted time if the gen gets completed before you down someone AND requiring you to play well enough to down someone in the first place, ie doing nothing if you aren’t good. So my point is does everything need counter play? If your answer is yes then we have a TON of redesigning across the board to do, not just with Eruption. I’d argue not everything needs counter play. Some things can just have risks or downsides instead.
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It’s a joke that this perk hasn’t been nerfed yet, so yes it should.
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Objectively so.
It hurts solo survivors exclusively and has zero counter play. When a perk alone can win matches because there is no counter for the weakest role in the game, it very obviously cannot stay as it is
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I kinda agree that not being able to play the video game for 25 seconds feels really bad. Maybe make it 15 seconds and that's a lot more reasonable.
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Yes it deserves to be adjusted/nerfed. Its the same situation old DH was in; the only ones who defended it were the ones who wanted to keep using it. When everyone else saw what it truly was. Same situation, just with Eruption & killer mains with clear bias coming out of the fog to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Even saw in 1 thread a week or so ago, someone's excuse for defending it was 'well people used to tell me old DH was fine, so I'm saying Eruption is fine now'.
Post edited by Volcz on4 -
The fact that it works so much better vs solo's while doing almost nothing vs swf alone is enough reason for a change
Doesn't even matter if it's overperforming or not
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- It's 25 seconds, not 20 seconds.
- If someone is running Eruption, there are normally other regression perks, it's not "just Eruption" every game. And this is ignoring the fact that Eruption got shadow-buffed (or bug fixed depending on your way of looking at things) which increases the amount of regression you get from the perk.
- I would have no issue if the Entity blocked the generator and they removed the screaming part so killers will be more likely to use BBQ or Thrilling Tremors. Where it stands, Incapacitated is a stupid debuff, because unable to play the game for 25 seconds is a stupid mechanic. I cant even cleanse totems or search chests or heal for an archive challenge. And figuring out which teammates are Incapacitated or not from Eruption is borderline impossible so you often waste time by expecting your teammates to do stuff they cant even do.
- It's a perk that is only designed to be strong against SoloQ and only SoloQ. SoloQ is rough as it is, this perk just makes it unbearable to play. As I mentioned before, Entity blocking the generator would be the best solution. It's effect will always proc on generators, which makes it better for SWFs, but removes Incapacitated which destroys SoloQ. This isnt even about doing just generators, I want to be able to play the damn game.
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So it should be buffed to work equally well against SWF as solo?
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Doesn't that basically apply to nearly every single perk in the game?
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It doesn't need to be nerfed, it needs to be reworked so that it doesn't completely screw solo survivors while having virtually no effect on SWF.
Surely every killer main wants their perks to be effective against SWF?
If it blocked gens instead of inflicting incapacitated, it would be just as effective against SWF as it is against solos, without suffering any kind of nerf. It would actually be a buff.
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"it would be just as effective against SWF as it is against solos, without suffering any kind of nerf. It would actually be a buff."
You mean that now instead of standing there they could heal instead?
How is that just as effective and how would that be a buff?
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It would be just as effective as a gen slowdown perk.
It would be a buff because instead of having a 50% success rate (only solos, never SWF) it would have a 100% success rate (no survivors can repair a blocked gen)
Are you ok with this perk being OP against solos and useless against SWF?
As a killer, I'm not, which is why I never run it. I need my slowdown to affect SWF MORE than solos. And why I hate it when I play solo survivor. I've had survivor games, with decent 3 gen scenarios, that have ended in stalemates because Eruption has made it literally impossible to repair the gens. You inflict 40s of relative regression, with a perk that has a 30s cooldown.
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"It would be a buff because instead of having a 50% success rate (only solos, never SWF) it would have a 100% success rate (no survivors can repair a blocked gen)"
Even the vast majority of swf sweat squads are not organized enough to give the exact moment they're going down. So rather than a 50% as you mention you're looking at more of a 90%+ at least even against those groups. Also, for the that small margin of effective dodging by the swf the gen continues to regress while they cannot touch it with its current iteration. You are not getting that regression while blocked. Lastly as I already mentioned they are now able to heal or work on another gen if that gen was simply blocked instead.
We can talk about whether you want the perk changed or not that's fine, but saying it would be just as effective if not even better against swf by receiving that change is just objectively not true.
"Are you ok with this perk being OP against solos and useless against SWF?"
Why even ask a silly question like this that you already know the answer to? No one actually thinks this. It's also not even remotely in the atmosphere of useless against swf. The groups you're talking about are like the top .5%
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I play in the most disorganised, ineffective SWF on the occasion I do (and for that reason I'm usually against the "SWF are always OP" camp) but even we can, almost without fail, call out when we're going down 2-3 seconds before we do.
Your 90% is grossly overestimated.
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Why survivors want go do something else once Eruption goes off like search a chest or do bones.Go do your secondary objective
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Remotely incapacitating a player via eruption isn't even interaction with the killer, it's just a 26 second stun, essentially randomly, even if you know for a fact the gen is affected by it. The only counter-play is "don't do that gen" which isn't always possible, especially if you're trying to avoid (or already in) a 3-gen scenario.
From a game development standpoint, the devs really need to think hard about including these kinds of non-interactive elements, especially when the stun lasts so long. If anything in the game needs counter-play, this is the kind of perk that should have it.
Or maybe I'm looking at it wrong and survivors should just have an identical perk: After healing any survivor for one health state (taking time to regress the killer's objective) the perk activates. Once you work on a gen for at least 8 seconds (doing your objective, in a way that can be done indefinitely), the killer (wherever they are) is stunned for 6.5 seconds and the perk deactivates. That sounds stupid and oppressive to me, but that would be the equivalent of current eruption.
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We're just gonna have to disagree then.
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So is your argument then that everything needs counter play? If that's the case then I'm fine with adding counter play to the perk, just understand that as I mentioned you're talking about needing to now add counter play to a TON of things in the game that already exist without counter play. If adding adding counterplay to Eruption means were adding counter play to everything else I'll take that trade. I just want standards were applying here to be applied evenly across the board.
I think you're example is pretty bad though. You're example isn't bad because there's no counter play as you're trying to make an example with, it's bad because the effect is OP. Those are two very different things.
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Did you just copy my post? Lol.
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This, just trade out the incapacitation for entity blocking the gen. It wouldn't get as many complaints if players could actually do something else after getting kicked off a gen.
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I think I stated it pretty clearly: if you're going to remove the ability for a player to play the game, it should involve some kind of counter play. Most things in the game already do this because they involve interacting with another player: hooks, pallet and flashlight stuns, victor pouncing you, as examples.
There are some other things that can remove you from play that aren't directly interactable, usually things like killer powers. So Pinheads chain hunt, trapper traps, and pig reverse bear traps aren't directly interacting with a player, but these also have counter play and/or telegraphs. Even things like oppression don't trigger until you hit a skill check, which by default has a notification sound.
Incapacitated is inflicted by Pinheads chain hunt, victor pounce, and eruption. Eruption is the exception to this currently, where a player can be removed from normal gameplay without interacting with the killer or killer's power at all, and without a way to play around that.
Eruption is the outlier and the problem currently. And the example is there solely to reiterate how OP this effect is. If the "survivor version" is OP, then so is eruption, by your own admission.
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They copied a post I made about sadako for some reason?
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Don't be contrarion for the sake of it. Of course this perk needs a nerf. Let's compare this to its closest friend Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance - perfectly counterable by watching for the hook animation, requires the killer to walk to one of the four hooks that triggers it, survivor screams don't reveal their location, it affects ONE generator, and the survivor can immediately resume progression after screaming.
Eruption on the other hand cannot be countered unless you are playing with a mic, it affects ALL gens being worked on, it removes the ability for the survivor to perform any action for 25 seconds. This perk isn't merely twice as good as Scourge Hook, it is at least three times as powerful.
So yes, it obviously needs a nerf. Should Scourge Hook get a buff also? Yes, they could remove the aura of the survivor during the hook animation so it can't be so easily countered. OR reveal survivor location OR even introduce the incapicitated status, albeit not for the ludicrously excessive period of 25 seconds.
Seriously, yesterday I played solo against a nurse with this perk and I kid you not, I could not complete this one gen until all my teammates died after getting hooked repeatedly.
Unfair and not fun.
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Eruption is good against solo que. Against a SWF with comms, it loses a ton of value. It should apply the incapacitated effect to anyone who is repairing the gen and the remaining duration should be applied to anyone who touches the gen within that window, so that it is equally effective against SWF and Solo. Finally, reduce the incapacitation effect to 20s instead of 25 and the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25s.
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Yes
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No need to get sarcastic I literally just asked for clarity on your point.
"And the example is there solely to reiterate how OP this effect is. If the "survivor version" is OP, then so is eruption, by your own admission."
No, you didn't read what I typed correctly. Your example was an illustration of lack of counter play, not to the degree of how powerful the effect was. Also no, that isn't an equal comparison at all. Stop strawmaning. The effect you listed and Eruption are completely different things.
I'm trying to stay on topic here but you're being hyperbolic and misdirecting from the point of the conversation.
There are literally tons of things in the game without counter play that lack interaction. If you agree that everything should have counter play then why wouldn't you just say okay I agree with your post that everything should have counter play? I feel like you're trying to be combative when we're overall in agreement on counter play.
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You still aren't understanding my point. Things that *remove a player from normal gameplay* that have no interaction or telegraph:
- Eruption.
Please add to the list.
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I see what you mean by your criteria then.
So by that criteria what type of change would you be asking for as an example then?
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It's been in place too long to be knee jerk.
The opinions are too consistent both between players and across occurrences of people raising issues with it to be knee jerk.
Oh and yes, yes it does.
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Halve the incapacitated status time, at least.
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Sorry for being sarcastic, I was just seeing a miscommunication and being frustrated by that.
First thing I would do is disable Eruption on any gen that regresses to zero.
I've seen a couple ideas that might work to varying degrees. The simplest would be to have the eruption effect "explode" 1 second or so after a survivor is downed. So, similar to pain resonance, there's an opportunity to avoid it. Unfortunately, this might destroy Eruption as a perk without greatly increasing the "chunk" of progress it takes from the gen. It also loses some identity, since it's basically just Jolt with extra steps and larger range. Not a perfect option, but solves the problems I have with it for the most part.
One other idea I saw, which doesn't exactly resolve the issue I have fully, but might work without destroying Eruption as a perk, is to debuff an affected survivor with some new debuff. So "Erupted" debuff makes them perform *most* general things like gen repair, cleansing/booning, healing, etc. at like 50% speed for whatever time period. That way they can still play the game, even if slowly, and this could be tuned numbers-wise to give Eruption the same amount of gen progress "lost", even if the survivor continues working on it. It would preserve the perk usefulness and uniqueness, and survivors can technically still perform actions, but I'm still not 100% sure I like this option personally.
The third way would be to make eruption more telegraphed. So if an Erupted gen had something like the cylinders puffing out smoke constantly you'd at least know that gen was cursed while working on it. The exact visual indicator is up in the air, and could be something as simple as a gear sitting on top of the gen while the perk is active.
And to be fair, there is one other perk I forgot to list, which is Blast Mine. Blast Mine also doesn't involve player interaction or telegraphs, and can stun the killer. Though Blast Mine seems fairer because it's earned, has one charge, and expires in 60 seconds. You can also just kick the gen immediately after recovering, so you lose a couple seconds total. So possibly if Eruption earned tokens on a down that got spent when kicking a single gen it would be far weaker, but you wouldn't have the threat of every single gen being affected. Again, doesn't exactly solve the problems entirely, but having it be "earned" and far rarer to encounter might be another way to reduce how oppressive it feels.
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Hmm I see. So I'm gathering that the issue you have with it is less the lack of counter play or more so that it stops you from playing the game correct? IE get rid of the unhealthy part of the perk in other words
Wouldn't making the perk deactivate on the gen that reaches zero not actually be solving any of the perks problems though? All that would really be doing is just making it weaker and I feel like our objective isn't actually to weaken it, just to make it more healthy.
The first option as you mentioned is basically just Jolt but actually much worse so not too much a fan there.
The second one is probably the best option I've seen.
"this could be tuned numbers-wise to give Eruption the same amount of gen progress "lost""
This seems like it would be really hard to do though since to make 50% slower come out equal to being Incapacitated which would be even more than zero progress since it continues to go down while you can't do anything, you'd have to either make the initial explosion make the gen lose a lot more or make that 50% slower literally last like an entire minute or more to come out even. Still probably the best option though if hypothetically tuned right.
Third option I'd be fine with but I feel like most people already know it's been kicked from seeing the killer do it so most people would probably say this isn't enough.
I like Blast Mine as a perk and counters the meta for killers, I'd actually buff it more and make it activate quicker. I could see this perk becoming a living nightmare though if 4 survivors were running the buffed version though lol. Hilarious to watch I'm sure.
I feel like a token system like that would kill the perk tbh.
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Exactly, the unhealthy part of the perk should be looked at.
And I didn't word it well, but the "remove Eruption if regression hits zero" would be in addition to any of the other changes to the perk. I focus on that because once a gen hits zero it's impossible to even tell a "fully regressed gen" from "gen that has never had progress". So getting hit with the incapacitation when just starting a fresh gen is extra annoying.
Yeah the numbers are a bit weird to tweak there, and I didn't run any numbers beforehand. But you're right, the debuff would have to be like 100% slower speeds or much longer, which could still be annoying. But if it's instead only debuffing gen repair speed, you could choose to wait it out doing something else more productive potentially. Running rough numbers, you get 25s incapacitated time and about 7% regression during that window as is right now, so it's about 40.3 seconds to break even to before the eruption hit, if you start working on it immediately as incap ends.
With just a gen speed debuff tho, you'd have to buff the initial hit to account for no regression window, so 17%ish off the top. If you do 100% slower gen speed you break even at the end of about 30.6 seconds. So even 100% slower speed isn't quite enough to keep the numbers the same. But still might be an option, since it actively encourages the survivor to do anything else other than that gen.
And yeah, I think Blast Mine is actually balanced pretty well, even if the reasons Blast Mine are "fair" aren't exactly translatable to Eruption.
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Those numbers would be close enough that I'd be alright with that change then. They'd make zero gen progress but at least during that time they could heal, boon, rescue, stop it from regresssing, ect.
I actually think more people hate it for the lack of counter play rather than the unhealthy "can't do anything" part though. I think that even with our change people would still hate the perk.
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Dead Hard and Eruption is no comparison lol. KIllers vs old dead hard could still play killer and progress their objective, with eruption in its current state, survivors cant play the game.
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Eruption has no counter. Even old dead hard had a counter. Its a no-brainer.
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Old DH can bait mid chase yes. But for distance to reach pallets & windows, not.
To the post. Eruption currently, is like this:
- Without Eruption
75sec Gen could be progressed in the next 25sec from the down.
- With Eruption
6sec regressed + 9sec instant regressing. 3 or even more Gens would multiplied to 45sec in the next 25sec from the down.
The gaps between Without & With Eruption is 120sec. That cause for every single down.
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Yes, it should be.
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A slight nerf to the incapicated timer yes, and make it counterable by Vigil.
Other than that the perk is legit fine, people just love to act like it's way stronger than it actually is.
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Eruption alone is ok. But paired with 3 other synergizing (gen slow down) perks on strong, experienced killers it becomes OP.
Especially vs. solo queue as SWFs can just call out when they're going down so the gen jockeys can counter it.
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It should be changed so it works equally (or how equal it can, it will never be equal 100%) against solo's and swf and then it can be looked at whether it needs a nerf or a buff
Not to this extent
Vs swf who call out when they go down eruption removes 10% of a gen or 9 charges
Vs a solo who can't know when a team mate goes down it does 10% of the gen, removes 25 seconds potential gen time and regresses for 25 seconds, that's 9+25+6,25= 40.25 charges lost per survivor hit
I know you can not realistically make perks effect solo vs swf equally but 9 vs 40 is a big difference don't you think
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