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Can someone explain why there is so much hate on SWF?
Shockingly i have a couple of friends who i like to play with. My steam profile is always aviable, people can see it and i am not ashamed of it. But why do people complain that 3 other survivors in my lobby are in my friends list? I mean there is nothing wrong about playing with friends.
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Being in a SWF gives a team a very clear, very decisive advantage
While I don't think that's a reason to hate people playing in a SWF, that's why many killers do hate going up against them. Even if a SWF is not a Seal Team Six Squad playing like their lives depended on it, the advantage SWF gives you is still high just because of the information you get
Not to mention that, while you (hopefully) do not do this, many killers deal with Bully Squads, which are almost always going to be 4 man SWFs. The kind of players who go out of their way to not only win but to make the experience as unfun as humanly possible for the killer. So a lot of killers who hate SWFs think of all SWFs as that kind of bully squad, regardless of whether you were part of one or not.
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Because SWF bad Killer good.
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There you have it: one regular forum member giving a well though out, relateble answer that explains both sides of the coin, and another regular giving just an inflamatory one liner only stoking the fires and widening the divide.
Thats actually all we need to go even, we can stop now.
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I assume because SWF are harder to kill because they're more coordinated
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Imo it comes from a time where swf were mainly bully squads and that hate has just continued to now. Swf have a big advantage even if there not seal team 6 but just a simple call out like the killers on me or they are heading to x gen can make a huge difference on what happens.
One of the biggest misconception or strawman is not everyone is super sweaty swf because as I said before simple call outs with decent survivors can change the outcome of many many different situations.
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Okay. Anyways what's next.
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It’s simple actually, the game is balanced for solo queue, not swf. So when playing against a swf group you aren’t playing a “fair” match. While most wouldn’t call it “cheating” since the devs obviously allow swf since it’s a feature of the game, it by definition is if we want to get technical. Playing against someone’s that’s cheating isn’t fun.
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Same reason why people hate Nurse, SWF and Nurse are two sides of the same coin, both having pretty much infinite skill ceilings, sure, not all Nurses/SWF's are sweaty, but the ones that are sweaty are dreadful to face.
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BHVR balancing as though SWF doesn’t exist drives me insane.
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Just repeating what everyone else said. Bully squads make people miserable. If not bully, then as a streamer has said, information is vital in DBD. Imagine playing with no aura perks or anything that tells you location. SWF can ignore aura perks and still report killer location, current action, chasing location.
The baby in me if I'm playing killer and multiple people join at the same time or similar names, I dodge. Selfish, yes, but I don't like being bullied so I'm not taking a chance.
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edit: double post
Post edited by H2H on0 -
I don't believe the game was developed with open communication between players in mind. So, I do view comms while SWF is a type of cheating. The kind that can't really be stopped, so the community is forced to somewhat embrace it. I don't find playing against a 3 or 4 person SWF very enjoyable. It is rare that they aren't sweaty and they are sometimes bully squads. So, I personally try to dodge SWF of 3 or more in the lobby.
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Nobody has a problem with people playing with friends. The problem is that when the survivors are communicating on comms it provides a massive advantage that was not intended in the original design of the game and that solo queue players do not get to enjoy. Solo queue players have to use perks to get information that SWF get for free.
What people are complaining about is the fact that the game is significantly tilted in favor of survivors when they are able to communicate with each other. The devs can’t/won’t do anything to help balance the game more in favor of killers to compensate for this because if they did, they game would be even more miserable for solo queue and a lot of players would quit.
To stand a chance against good SWF teams, killers have to play in a way that survivors consider “unfun” like camping and tunneling and playing the best killers with the most OP add-ons. Since you don’t know for sure if a team is SWF, you have to assume they are and play as sweaty as possible.
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Killers don’t like the idea of survivors enjoying themselves or having friends lol
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For me, 90% of the times that I've been personally attacked after a match, its always a SWF set up, usually 3+.
In groups of 2, I think they adjust their expectations for the match out come to include maybe not steamrolling it.
But, most 3+ groups are just determined that they win. And no amount of anything I do will have them take a graceful loss.
So yah, I'd dodge everyone of those ****in lobbies, if the game would tell me the SWF was present.
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Survivors don't like the idea of killers bringing shenanigans
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The idea of having 3 other people with you who you know will do gens, unhook and are good loopers vs playing solo is night and day difference and literal different game mode
I am not going to lie and pretend saying that I do not like that easier mode less than solo q but unfortunately as on top of that playing with your friends is always fun, but all my friends and my bf who got me into this game ditched it and I probably haven't played in a SWF in more than a year now, so the reason SWF is a controversial topic is because of the advantages it gives to the survivors, bunch of perks for free, coordination for everything that goes on in the match and also you can coordinate your perks and pull of some insane plays with stuff like power struggle, head on, sabo, exponenatal and bunch of other perks that would kill you for trying to use them against a killer with bunch of randoms
And obviously this is not fun when you are playing a killer, even a good Nurse can struggle if the survivors know exactly where to run her and split on gens
This effect causes some killers to act like they are going against swf every single match and bring out the sweatiest tactics of camping and tunneling at 5 gens against most solo teams
It's the most powerful role in the game by far
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Not like versace is wrong. Hear it time and time again from a lot of killer mains "play in a SWF if you keep losing" but then are shocked when they play a SWF. Forum banter won't really stop that fact or "cure the divide".
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Aside from the obvious free information SWFs get that feels unfair to killer players, there is another element.
Twitch and Youtube are filled with SWFs that mock, belittle, and insult Killer players and make content out of it. This has created a community of jerks that act like jerks for views and clicks and so "groups" of them now invoke that same energy.
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Yes. This is why I very much dislike SWF.
The competitive edge they gain from grouping isn't an issue, it'd be a welcome challenge to work around. It would provide a fun game play element.
The issue is their attitudes, they are bad. This is bad for the community and game, although it is monetizable. If I suspected anyone really wanted to fix the issue, I'd start there, make it very unprofitable to act as such.
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The supremely coordinated SWF that take things too far with gameplay that actively squashes the fun for the killers is the problem.
Ideally those groups would only get matched with veteran high skill killers that can handle them. However both mmr that prioritizes queue times and the self-inflicted harm from lobby dodging results in matchmaking that can serve up quite the lopsided trial.
With abuse breeding abuse and the toxicity that results, those groups have poisoned the killer players against all SWF groups. The fear if not paranoia of going against them leads to detective work, and lots and lots of lobby dodging, which is why showing them up front can't happen. Too many play in SWF now it's too late.
But I confess I don't have any easy solutions either. Can't stop comms, can't ditch SWF mode. So the devs are attempting to slowly bit by bit get solos the info to make coordination possible. Then maybe most killers can be rebalanced around that new state of affairs. Might work I dunno, but that seems to be the plan.
The point is killers often go into matches in full sweat mode expecting to get sweat thrown at them, and the cycle continues.
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There is nothing wrong with playing with friends.
However, an extremely large portion of the game's challenge comes from information and the lack of it. Friends have easy access to communication software, such as Discord, Skype, or even just their phones.
This game is not balanced around the survivors being able to communicate freely. You can tell that it is not balanced around that by the sheer number of survivor perks which are just there for information and information alone. Info which can be instantly communicated between Survive With Friends teams, without costing them a perk slot.
And despite this, there are no benefits to solo queue survivors who do not benefit from instant communications with their team mates. There are no benefits to killers who are going up against teams of survivors who are benefiting from a plurality of free info perks. There's not even a BP incentive.
Survive With Friends (with comms) is playing an objectively easier game. And there is no balancing taken into account to justify the massive increase in ease of play.
And so, when survivors get buffed, SWF gets far, far more benefit than solo. This drives down kill rates, which means killers then get buffed. Killer buffs disproportionately affect solo queue survivors. People complain, and survivors get buffed again. And the cycle repeats. And every time it does, the game gets worse for solo queue.
Because they're playing two different games, but are put on the same level for no good reason.
That is why SWF receives hate.
It's literally the root of every problem this game is experiencing.
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I think showing who was in a SWF group with whom AFTER the trial would help a lot to show killers that 2/3 of all the goofs and potatoes they played again were SWFs who were no Seal Team 6s. It would also do away with this situations were someone is clearly in a SWFs, but they claim in the post game chat "lol, we are jsut some randos who never played before. Stop being salty about nothing."
Yes, in theory you could write down their names and dodge their lobbies, but its so rare that I even recognize a player from an earlier game, yet alone would go through the hassle of keeping a list, that I don't think that this would be a big problem.
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Basically it's this:
The people who complain about swfs the loudest are usually people who seem to think the sole goal of the game is making the other side as miserable as possible. SWFs don't give as much an advantage as people love to make it out to be, communication or not.
But said communication takes away one thing from those complaining:
The ability to be boring-meta weasels, regardless what the current 'killer' meta might be. Dig around the forum or reddit a little and you'll easily find those complaining about swfs have several threads defending really obnoxious builds and skill-deprived playstyles. Things they can't do anymore if people can TELL each other what's going on, and they are upset something as simple as discord takes away their magnificent iWin button.
I have genuinely lost track how often people had nice things to say when I play killer, simply cause I don't run the standard builds and playstyle. Even full 4-men swfs. So... the issue isn't so much with swfs (on coms) (unless they are out to be toxic) but with entitled players.
If you want a game where coms are an issue, look at VHS.
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So you do the flip side argument "Yeah, yeah we know, Survivor good, killer bad". That doesn't make this sort of one-liners anything approaching an argument, least of all a good or valid one. Really, the best cure for ugly behaviour is playing both sides. There is a shockingly large number of survivors who basically never play killer, so its really hard to empathise for the other side, if you never wear their shoes. The same is true for a much smaller portion of the killer playerbase, where a lot more also play survivor. Bad and obnoxious persons exist in droves on both sides, but by stoking the fires of hate we will never get anywhere.
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It's tough to deal with when a killer is learning, depending on how much the SWF is utilizing comms. A lot of low level to mid level DbD play is built around information gaps and the element of surprise.
Killer players don't know how to read opponents yet and there's still a processing period with their macro decisions. And a lot of times killers will do the wrong thing. Plus they lose the element of surprise if it's something that player normally relies on.
The SWF on the other hand makes up for information gaps that would otherwise be present in solo queue. They're processing things faster while the killer is still processing things at their normal speed. The game can feel very fast to a less experienced killer.
Is it a balance issue? Not in my opinion. Because once you get into high level play, SWF doesn't matter. The killer knows what the survivors are doing and vice versa. I know that the save is going to happen quickly because the gen at 3 just finished and I'm hooking at 6, but I know that I need to patrol to 12 because mid wasn't being worked when I passed by in chase, so the other 2 are probably doubling a gen. But a less experienced killer might patrol to the wrong spot, see the save happen immediately, and say "freaking SWF". It's my optimal thing vs your optimal thing, and we'll see who executes better. It can be a matchmaking issue disguised as a balance issue.
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My favorite matches as killer have been against SWF when it is obvious to me they are a team. Generally as killer I feel like I have to play down a couple gears and playing a coordinated team really means I have to bring my A game.
The problem is that there aren't many ways to tell until well into a match. Like I'll have played two matches where I'm intentionally avoiding the weakest survivor to make the match competitive, and suddenly I hit a team that it is popping gens while I'm still in my first chase. SWF is basically a different game than soloQ for the killer without being told about the change.
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Sure “killer” main.
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Because they don't like the challenge. They would rather face weak solo players all day. Got to get that 4k every game.
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Many players in this game are not really good. And for some reason, the DBD-Community as a whole is not able to accept own mistakes. This goes for both sides - most of the time it is something else why they lost. As Survivor this is pretty easy, you can just blame your teammates.
As Killer, you dont have teammates to blame. So you blame SWF, it is the scapegoat for the Killer losing. Some big content creators do it as well, most of them really killer-sided. In some Chats the Word "SWF" is always brought up with "toxic", like, there is "toxic SWF" and nothing more.
And for those players, content creator or not, SWF is the reason why they lost. You know, you just went against a 4 man-SWF as Huntress. You made some bad calls. Missed half of your Hatchets. All of them escape. But it cannot be your own mistakes, it cannot be all the Hatchets missed, it was the SWF why you lost.
It is honestly a big shitshow that players in DBD cannot accept their own mistakes. But yet here we are.
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that shot went into your own foot, i play killer and survivor, which is why I have no love for that kind of behavior on either side. like, lbr, the BEST games are those were both sides (try to) play to their best potential, not those where it's all 'who can be the most obnoxious yet predictable'
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Hating SWFs (usually without distinction of skill level or number of party) is an easy and comforting thing to do as killer.
Won against a SWF ? I'm such a god, putting them in their place, game didn't hold their hand hard enough uh !
Lost against a SWF ? Those darn SWF, they have such an advantage, it's not my fault if I lost !
Had a slightly embarassing loss against any lobby ? Probably a SWF anyway...
SWF according to killer is the same kind of flexible definition as tunneling according to survivors.
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"swf" is such a blanket term that lumps everything together. That there is hardly any differentiation between the different kinds of swf already kinda gives away that it's an empty shell; a coping mechanism at best. But as with everything, there is some truth to it:
Seal team six squads do exist and they are usually gonna win - but there are few actual seal team six squads out there. Considering only a fraction of players is at/beyond the cap and these players most certainly are. -- I for one don't have high enough MMR to see them more than once in a blue moon.
Flashlight bully squads - or bully squads in general - most certainly exist as well. These people don't need swf to bully though. They're usually always like that. I see those way more often. Ironically more often on my low MMR killers --- cause they're so preoccupied with Flashies and bags that no gens get done. One by one they get hooked. Even if it takes three attempts. I always feel sorry for a solo stuck with a three man of this kind.
What I see way more often though is friends, average players, having fun. Sure, their builds are sometimes coordinated - but they're full of meme perks just as often. Sure, you can tell they're on comms by the way they move across the map -- but they're also way more likely to spend quite some time on dicking about (always a delight to see with lethal and other sura reading perks). Yes, they can usually unhook more efficiently and safely and those egc two-man-unhooks with subsequent bidyblocks can be real annoying --- but they're also way more likely to once again confirm that altruism kills by turning a 3E into a 4K because they just had to try to get the fourth one out. I call them musketeers. I like them.
Not to mention: While you will always recognise and remember that 4man squad that got you, you'll remember them because of the outcome. The swf that was hardly a challenge because they had other priorities (and many have - entire squads throw to have that one person pip or get a challenge done) you'll either not even recognise as swf or will have forgotten by the next match.
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The first response from tippy summed it up well
I think the power of a SWF is often overstated as the majority of the player base are casuals and even a 4 man of casuals is going to have a rough time against an experienced player who is playing a higher tier killer.
The problems happen when high level survivors play together and go into public matches, as they throw the usual balance of the game way out and unfortunately many of these players (not all) seem to enjoy making the killers match miserable over doing the objective.
Often you will still win against the more troll SWF teams, as they will spend more time trying to get blinds/saves and use various 'techs' on you instead of actually doing gens. But these wins feel empty as the process of getting that win is stressful and you have to put up with a lot of toxicity.
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Balanced for soloQ I'd say it's more balanced for a swf than soloQ I win and lose every single soloQ match survivors can't so sh*t and when I play survivors do crazy ######### like dropping wvery pallet for no reason(outside chase and stuff) they DC if they hear a nurse blink at the start xd. When I play against swfs it's atleast a fun match you don't really know how the match will turn out and you have to fight for it, against soloQs well it's like fighting a toddler you don't even have to try...
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Swf most oftem means communication tools which arent part of the game. They do get an advantage of it.
I remember when Survivors were defending comms, dismissing it as just using to to talk about "their days, the weather, news or cute boys". But then it swapped from " its not cheating or even advantageous" to "its advantageous, so give it to all survivors"
As for complains about swfs or "swf hate"? Well these complains are about actually good players playing in a good team using comms for good strategies. Of course they get complains by people who lost to such a competent team. People complain about Nurse too although bad nurses ######### suck. The difference is that SWF is nerfproofed because the devs do not want to tweak swf but only "survivor". Its simply a fact SWF is always using "Survivor" or "Solo" as shield.
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I do agree that many players lie to themself how good they are and are quick to blame others before themself
But as with all good lies there is a hint of truth in there
There is no denying that swf with coms gives a huge advantage that the game doesn't give by base.
It really isn't a stretch of the imagination to say there are matches that killer players lose that they would have easily won if communication wasn't a factor
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I would have no problem with them showing SWF groupings post-trial, even though it would lead to more dodging that borks up the matchmaking badly.
Though not big in number, there absolutely are killers who keep their Black Books of players to avoid.
As for that chat box, in this narrow particular I'm kinda glad it's a feature us consolers do not have.
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Agreed. I run Bond as a solo survivor, it gives me a lot of information I wouldn't otherwise have, helps me make better decisions, but it pales in comparison to the information that even a casual SWF can share amongst themselves.
And a sweaty SWF? It's like Kindred, Bond and a Map with Crystal Bead all rolled into one, and it doesn't take up even a single perk or item slot.
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Here is the thing.
People who "hate" complete strangers because of their own childish attitude are complete morons. SWF is a feature created by the devs and if they don't like it, they should take it up with the devs and offer their own suggestions. You did nothing wrong by playing together with your friends.
The problems with SWF are the general communication which is a huge advantage in a game where we are meant to use perks and listen to sounds to locate and identify our opponents. So in a game which was not designed around direct communication, it feels like cheating. That doesn't mean you did anything wrong at all by playing together with friends. This part is not your fault really.
I also suggested that SFW should be restricted to custom games, because it is a problem for multiple reasons. The game is balanced around SWF also so Solo players feel disadvantaged, and of course killers also don't find it fair if the opponents know exactly what the others are doing on the other side of the map and almost permanently know the location of the killer even without perks.
So it's a problem? Sure it is. Is it your fault? Not at all, haters are dumb.
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Because there sadly have been a lot of Bully squads. No one likes to play with or against them. So SWF has a bad reputation.
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People really need to separate SWF from bullysquads.
SWF is what every match should be. A 4v1 which Solo Q definelty isn't.
Bullysquads will literally throw just to make the killer miserable.
Solo Q is often even worse than bots in a custom(atleast those do gens). And unfortunately that's what killers are used to so they don't "git gud" since they don't need to, get 4k's handed to them and when they go against a competent team they get rolled and whine about it.
Same goes to survivors who exclusively play in bullysquads and think too highly of themselves, go solo and realize they're not that good on their own.
And as a side note, people that do git gud on killer will STILL roll any SWF if they picked a decent killer, and atleast will have fun doing so because winning for free every game gets boring real quick.
What I think we need is something that prevents new killers from going against seasoned SWF's just because they 4k'd a group of Solo Q potatoes 2 or 3 times. That'd tone down the salt over it a bit.
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