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My opinion on tunneling and camping
Comments
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The survivors' level of fun is no concern to a killer. Im not there to entertain you, Im there to kill you, all 4 of you if possible, by any means necessary. But no cheating or hacking. Pretend rules a bunch of kids invented mean nothing to me.
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Maybe you should read the post i was responding to. Buddy. A nerf is a nerf. It got nerfed. More than once. Im not gonna argue about the levels to which it was nerfed. The guy i was responding to said it was nerfed months ago, not years. Which is false. They nerf everything and any perk or killer if survivors cry enough.
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Against 99% of public lobbies there is absolutely no excuse for tunnelling or camping, people are just bad at the game and will excuse their scummy tactics with all manner of sophistry.
I totally understand it in a competitive (lol) setting as these players are not your average solo queue casual and they expect this. But doing this is public lobbies just makes the game absolutely miserable and I have zero respect for it.
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There is no excuse. Because its not against any rules. I couldnt care less if anyone respects what I do. Espescially if i just sacrificed 4 of you. Dont care about how much fun my opponents are having. Your fun is no concern to a killer. Im there to end your fun.
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This is one of the big problems with DBD... there are a lot of people with an incredibly selfish attitude and it creates a cycle of toxicity that can make this game incredibly unfun.
You are there to kill, not to "end fun" and if you are actually good at the game you can do both. I never tunnel, never camp and I win at least 90% of my killer matches. I am not even that good as far as I am concerned but I still manage to play 'fair' while winning at the same time.
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DbD has one of the most extensive and rigid codes of ethics that I know of for a PvP game. Where you are looked down on not merely for griefing, throwing, cheating or playing a particular character, but literally just for using the correct strategy to win. A strategy that Killers regularly use in tournaments, mind you.
No one is under an obligation to make bad decisions on purpose in a PvP game, just because that would be more "fair". Tunneling and camping (When the situation calls for it) is the optimal strategy. If you can get away with outright refusing to tunnel or camp, then you're clearly getting matched with bad survivors. If you were actually playing against survivors at your skill level, refusing to tunnel or camp should be regularly costing you kills.
Post edited by Monlyth on1 -
The survivors' level of fun is no concern to a killer.
It is. Because you still need those survivors to have fun, yourself.
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Sometimes it does cost me kills, sometimes it may even lose me the match but I am okay with this as more often than not I get pressure from keeping them busy unhooking.
I made very clear that actually skilled teams (as in tournaments) can deal with this but in public lobbies 99% of players are casual and not difficult to win against.
Call me old fashioned but I don't like to inflict on others what I don't enjoy and I know that being tunnelled out of the game so you cant even play is a horrible feeling, so I refuse to inflict this on others if they are not being toxic to me (tea bagging, clicking, spam vaulting). I don't run NOED, I refuse to use Eruption or mind numbing full slowdown builds...
Against a truly skilled comp level team, most will lose whether they tunnel or camp and lets be honest here, people tunnel and camp because they can't win by outplaying their opponent in an honourable way. This may not matter to others and so be it but it does matter to me.
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Nobody likes dying in CS:GO. Does that mean you shouldn't kill your opponents when you have the chance? Or perhaps you should buy a bad gun on purpose because that would be more "fair", and people who choose otherwise are just noobs?
If you can get away with making bad plays on purpose, game-throwing plays even, then that is a failure of the matchmaking system. A Killer who chooses to tunnel or camp at an opportune moment is no more dishonorable than a CS:GO player who throws a flashbang.
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Lol no, these are not comparable at all. You have no other way to dispatch of your opponent in shooters, shooting is the main mechanic other than things like grenades etc.
Your objective in DBD is to prevent gens getting done and kill the survivors... how you do that is up to you.
I see who I play against, I often play with the same people so I know their skill level. But pressure, mindgames and game sense all win games and you can do it without playing in a scummy and unfun way.
People just want to make excuses for their scummy conduct
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No one is talking about tunneling and camping in general even in my original post I say there are times where tunneling and camping is the right call. But tunneling the first person out asap or camping at 5 gens is not necessary and not good for the game and I even advocate for buffs to make up for it. I also think when the survs make a stupid play I should use this to win so a strategic tunnel or camp is good
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If you can get away with not tunneling the first person out ASAP, you're not playing against Survivors at your skill level.
The Killer's objective is to kill. They will trend towards whatever strategy gets them kills the fastest. And the Survivor's objective is to survive. If they make mistakes, the natural consequence should be for them to die.
If you really want tunneling to stop that badly, you're gonna be looking at a pretty big overhaul of a lot of the game's core systems, especially the hook system, because when the Killer gets an unhook notification, they now know exactly where to find not one, but two survivors. And unless their Discordance just popped or they're already in another chase, the logical next step is to go back to the hook. And given that the Killer's objective is to kill, then unless they have a big incentive not to, they're gonna go for the survivor that's closer to dying.
Oh, so my team should leave the bombsites undefended on purpose because that would be more "fair"? Wait for them to plant before making a single move?
People like you who feel the need to make up a million arbitrary rules for other people's conduct and chastise them for using basic strategy are easily among the most toxic players in the community, especially in endgame chats. Not even using an OP or unfun item, perk, or character, just making the correct plays to win.
Just because the matchmaking system doesn't give you a fair fight doesn't mean you get to decide how everyone else should play the game.
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This is just a lot of excuses for playing in a scummy way and if you feel you need to do that then I can't stop you.
But I continue to win most matches without resorting to scummy tactics and oppressive builds. You can claim that I am not going against good survivors but at some point if I am winning and easily getting rank 1 Iri within the first couple of weeks of reset, I must at some point be matched against better opponents.
You do you but I refuse to play like this and perpetuate the cycle of toxicity
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That's why I say when they do something against extreme tunneling they need to buff the killers that actually the whole point of this post.
And you could give the killer a reason to don't attack the freshly unhooked player. Give a bonus for attacking the unhooker give a small regression to all gens for attacking them. Give the survivor gens speed boost for going after the unhooked of course not when they take a hit. You can go more and more extreme till it works on the end you could make the unhooked outright invisible for the killer not that I think that's a good idea just to show how far the devs could go
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You know there's a soft cap on MMR, right? After a point, at not that high a skill level, the matchmaking mostly just gives up and matches you with whoever. How do you think pro players easily get winstreaks that go into the dozens, or the hundreds? In most competitive games, the #1 player on the leaderboard, going all-out every match, can maybe manage a 60+% winrate over the course of that many matches. And if it's 90+%, they're probably cheating.
So no, being a player that the matchmaking system doesn't know what to do with doesn't give you the right to police other people for using a straightforward winning strategy that any good player is fully expecting to face. Tournament-level Killers will tell you, against Survivors at their skill level, they'd be doing their opponents a disservice if they refused to tunnel.
I think tunneling should still be an option under some circumstances, unless you're looking to completely rework the hook system (e.g. Shared hooks across the entire team). Because regardless of how one may personally feel about it, tunneling creates a lot of opportunities for interaction between the Killer and Survivors. Tunneling changes how Survivors behave instead of just endlessly rotating between gens and taking turns on the hook. If a survivor on death hook is being chased, then suddenly the other Survivors have a reason to go for protection hits, pallet saves, flashlight saves, maneuvers that are often not worth your time otherwise. Suddenly a Prove Thyself user has a big opportunity to get value knowing the Killer will leave them alone.
Similar to how the Killer's behavior changes the more gens they lose.
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"Any and anything that has ever caused someone to lose a match, has posts begging for nerfs. I quit playing for years. Probably back when they destroyed Ruin. And its the same stuff on this forum years later , people crying about getting tunneled, camped and slugged."
you claimed it was DESTROYED 2 years ago. It was not DESTROYED. if it had, it wouldnt have remained one of the number 1 killer perks till it ACTUALLY got ruined in the meta shakeup.
and it did by DEFINITION get nerfed in the meta shakeup even tho you just claimed for some bizarre reason that it was nerfed 2 years ago but not a few months ago.
I understand you desperately wanna be in the right but if you havnt played the game in years i dont think you have a basis for stating what perks have been ruined or not to the playerbase that has active experience with it.
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Yeah I also think tunneling should be an option butthe devs need to do something about that hard tunneling. There are situations where tunneling is the right call and I think most survivor players would say this too but just tunneling out the first guy you see and even ignorering every opportunity to get a down on anyone else isn't good. It's sucks for the one being tunnels and till the tunnel is completet there not much for the other to do except gens. It's just not good for game health but I am pretty sure in the devs wor on it hard enough they will find a good working way so we can have both
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Personally, I think part of the problem is the current perk meta. Dead Hard in particular. Having every Survivor potentially get a third health state heavily discourages the Killer from switching targets, and the only scenario where Dead Hard isn't particularly handy is when you're being tunneled, given that Off the Record makes DH kinda redundant.
A perk like Sprint Burst, on the other hand, makes it much more likely for the unhooked to get away safely, stacks with OTR, and isn't as oppressive outside of unhook scenarios.
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The "meta" is a problem on both sides.... Just Saying
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Well, not much about the Killer perk meta explicitly encourages tunneling. No Way Out even rewards you for doing the exact opposite. But Dead Hard? It can actively punish you for NOT tunneling.
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In CSGO you can also plant / defuse the bomb or rescue the hostages, I dont own GO but i think the VIP may as well just go to the evacuation spot.
BTW the comparison is good. "Dont tunnel but go for 12 hooks" ~ "use a bad pistol instead of AWP bodyshotting."
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Current ds could be made basekit for survivors too. So do both give carrot and stick.
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Selfish? Its 1 vs 4. I dont see killers trying to invent childish rules that only benefit their side. Tunneling, also known as counting or paying attention. Camping? Show me where its in the game's rules. You can't Because its not. Its the opposite. It says right in the rules on this forum, Dont bother reporting for tunneling, camping and body blocking. When you pay my bills and buy my games you can tell me how to play them.
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Like I already said, a nerf is a nerf. Ruin was reworked/nerfed years ago. You told me it wasnt. Just months ago. That is false. Im not gonna debate the levels to which it was nerfed. It was enough to make me mad. Enough that i posted on this forum about it. In march of 2020. NOT months ago. Yeah i quit playing for years. Im sure ill leave again. But just Because i was gone doesnt mean they didnt nerf ruin, multiple times. You gonna tell me they didnt rework/nerf mori's too?
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please learn how to read and comprehend. Again, you stated ruin was "destroyed" 2 years ago. It was not "destroyed" 2 years ago. it was "destroyed" a few months ago. No one is arguing that no change was made to ruin a few years ago, but it was not "destroyed" because of it. A "destroyed" perk does not retain one of the highest killer pick rates in the game.
By your own admission you have not played the game for a while so maybe dont make statement about things you have no experience with. and maybe try actually reading what you are being told. YOU are the one who stated ruin was DETROYED 2 years ago. you didnt say "nerf/reworked 2 years ago"
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Since the devs have decided to keep bloodlust 3 in the game and even buff it, I think a fair trade off would be to add an early game protection to survivors where tunneling them out would be extremely hard. Basically a basekit DS untill 3 gens are finished. That way, you can still get a ton of hooks, and get 2 hooks on survivors who touch gens or totems early, but its gonna be really hard to tunnel them out early on. Aka, a much higher risk on tunneling, for a huge slowdown. That would be fair from a design position.
In return, I think Bloodlust shouldnt lose all stacks after kicking a pallet. I think it should reduce 1 stack of bloodlust instead and increase the breaking speed of said pallet by 25%(but only when kicked, not when broken through an ability). That way, you dont need to wait for another bloodlust stage to catch up, are faster at creating deadzones and can close the gap quicker after breaking said pallet. And I am still for an "out of chase" type of bloodlust, where if you are out of chase for longer than 20 seconds, you gain a 10% haste boost. That gives some mobility to slower killers and allows for some niche plays(like Pig or Ghostface crouching towards survivors, altho ghostface reveals need to be fixed)
That way, there is a deterrence to early game tunneling, but also a basekit mechanic against early-droppers and against holding W against killers like Myers.
The first one shouldnt be "right time to camp and tunnel" tho. Having a survivor out really early is simply a lost game, there is no surrender button, so survivors are forced to wait untill they are dead. Especially since there is no risk to it, and the reward is huge. A huge reward should come either with at least a decent risk.
Personally, I would say tunneling at 2 gens remaining(or 3 when you're certain one is about to pop), is fine. I would love to see a basekit DS that triggers as long as there are 3 or more generators left. Especially now that its only 3 seconds.
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Well yea... perks have pros and cons about them
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Strawman argument as far as it being against the rules, so I will let you argue that one out with yourself since that is nothing to do with me.
The fact is I refuse to play in a scummy way then try to make excuses and present a pile of cope. You can indeed play how you want but if you are going to play scummy, at least own that.
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A pile of cope? What does that even mean? I have no problem owning it. I tunnel. I camp. Ill face camp with leatherface 20 seconds into a match. A smart group will go do gens. Maybe ill get bored and leave.
And I really couldnt care less if my Opponents like it, respect it, or hate it. Or anyone else for that matter. I play to win, not to entertain, amuse or ensure survivors have fun. And I will never follow made up, imaginary rules. Which is exactly what tunneling and camping are.
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And that's why we need actually rules and mechanisms to prevent you
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So edgy... ugh...
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There is nothing wrong with either, No slugging, no tunneling, no camping, no hit and run, no 3 gen etc etc, only the survs can have optimal strats, the contrary is unfun and boring
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Sole survivor is the desperation perk. I always run it in solo Q
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Sole Survivor is the perk to get out of what people call low mmr hell
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