Scott+Otz discuss tunneling (video)
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Sure that may happen, but is it the norm?
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I wouldn't say that it happens every match but it isn't super uncommon.
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after playing the complete day on vacation i decided to camp the S*** out of every survivor and tunnel them. Babysitting 3gen. whatever is necessary and within the official rules.
the reason is simple: the survivors are just toxic. if you give just a little bit in and dont 4k/3k+H they will laugh at you, spit at you, flame on you. the whole day i experienced exactly this. as soon as they reach the exit gates they show their true colors. not ONE friendly surv that said gg after a match or any friendly word. the whole day. like what 30-40 games?
i didnt take any "meta" perks like eruption or brine or whatever just to be a bit more "fair", but this ends now.
i am not even raging, it is my conclusion. i am just highly disappointed and sad about this community or the vast majority of it. if this is what you want dear survivors i highly recommend to every killer that you use your absolute worst (for survivors) strategies.
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I would much prefer a constant arms race between balancing survivor and killer than just putting up your hands and saying nothing can be done and SoloQ needs to be absolutely insufferable.
That preferential matchmaking really gets to people's heads.
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Happens quite often.
This is honestly a cycle at this point that will never end.
Killers use "survivor rulebook" as a defense mechanism to their playstyles but have their own rulebook we survivors must follow?
x item, x playstyle, x lobby incentivizes killers to tunnel/play a certain way because the game is "survivor-sided and every lobby is a toxic SWF"
killers run x build, x playstyle and call survivors bad when they voice their opinions because it's creating an unhealthy atmosphere to the game
I don't get it.
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You mean you dont understand how a 1vs 4 can be aggravating? I just had a match vs 4 Dead Hard gamers, now THAT is aggravating.
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That has nothing to do with the principle of the matter. At this rate, the game in general is aggravating.
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On the contrary, its exactly ON POINT. An aggravating game calls for aggravating strategies. 3 healthstates is too much.
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Three?
Dead hard, decisive strike, borrowed time, off the record... I would count that as six health states possible.
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Uh yeah. It's like almost every game. Anything else you want to ask me? Like how my days is going or if I have a will to live?
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I have been there before so I understand the aggravation completely, do you think wasting precious time to out a survivor is too much? I bet people will say it's not enough.
Do you think survivors using the only protection they have to counter being tunneled out of the game is too much? I expect many to say it is.
You see those 3 health states were probably intended to protect survivors from being tunneled out, but from a poor execution of mechanics, it allowed them to abuse it as second chance perks and reset chase. Can you blame them as it's the only counter to killers that tunnel? Poor execution of mechanics that allows both sides to abuse them at their own volition, but people would rather see it as it simply being "one sided" and "EZ mode" for survivors. I guess killers are the ones that are supposed to EZ mode survivors without a chance for survivors to redeem themselves, because killers should make the environment as less engaging and punishing as possible.
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Dead Hard has nothing to do with tunneling except you have to tunnel people out to deal with the free escapes that perk creates.
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You underestimate how long it actually takes to do that. Imagine if hook states were shared. Downing a survivor who does nothing but hold shift + w takes 56 seconds (seriously do the math). Then they get hooked, then repeat that 6 times before they are out of the match. This is a total of 56 * 6 seconds. Then factor in that, if the killer is tunneling, just don't unhook them, if they have to go through 6 hook states to die, that takes a full 6 minutes. You are easily going to finish 5 gens and do the gates before they even hit the last hook state.
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It very much does have something to do with tunneling. Not immediately off the hook, but I have seen it.
you’d be surprised how some killers respond to dead hard.
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It's...ugh. A tricky one.
On one hand, watching CC and streams, and if you try to play nice against a good squad, you're going to get flattened and told to uninstall in postgame.
However, it's also obnoxious to face when the killer isolates the weak link in the team and just turbo tunnels them out, without there being too much you can do aside from a bit of bodyblocking.
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Hooked first time, 1st hook count him. Unhooked and tunneled (1)
Hooked 3 more times, count on teammates. Unhooked and tunneled (1 + 3 = 4)
Hooked 5th time, 2nd hook count on him. Unhooked and tunneled (4 + 1 = 5)
Hooked 6th time, 3rd hook count on him, Dead.
There is 5, not 6
You said 56sec W.
Survivor will make 224m.
Which map has 224m straight line.
Dont killers know how to take flanking path?
Dont killers not using power to speed up?
Did you count 56sec that Killer attack when being right behind survivor or already count their 6m lung distance?
Tunneler still tunneling as long as going to the injured unhooked survivor is still a weaker option than other 3 healthy survivors (as I said, go back to unhooked 3 more times is still better than going for 3 healthy teammates).
Thing is, its not about punishing tunneler, its about the fun of tunneled one. Just W 5 more times, even if the map is 300m length that allow you to W for 56sec, isnt fun.
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get depip for tunneling, problem solved
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Its 6 hooks to eliminate them from the game.
4 hooks to get through shared team hook, 1 hook to get second state, 1 hook to kill them. 6 hooks to eliminate the survivor.
You are slightly incorrect about the straight line aspect, that number is off as well, but correct about the concept. Now factor in perks, and pallets, and windows, and looping, and dead hard, and every other tool survivors have. Now factor in killer power.
The point i'm saying is, even the worst survivor can hold shift + w, and waste at least 56 seconds of the killers time to (get hit twice, get picked up, walked to a hook, and hooked) 6 times. At minimum, if a survivor can't last longer than 35 seconds in a chase, they are doing something really wrong.
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Your math is way wrong though. Let's do the math together.
Some data:
Survivor movement speed: 4.0 m/s
Survivor post hit movement speed duration: 1.8 seconds
Survivor post hit movement speed: 6.0 m/s
Killer movement speed: 4.6 m/s
Killer movement speed while carrying survivor: 3.68 m/s
Killer Terror Radius: 32 meters
Killer hit cooldown: 2.7 seconds
Killer pick up speed: 3 seconds
Killer hook speed: 1.5 seconds
Generator repair speeds: 90 seconds
Average distance to hook: 12 meters
Average human response time: 273 ms (https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime)
Average map size: 9850 square meters (~99.25x99.25 meters for a square)
So, let's assume killers and survivors all spawn at opposite ends of the map. The survivors spend the first 20 seconds looking for a generator and the killer spends the first 20 seconds running to the opposite end of the map. With a killer having a 32 meter terror radius, and taking into account movement speeds and human reaction time. if we take the human reaction time and 6x it to account for figuring out the direction the killer is coming from and making sure you can run the opposite direction, the survivor will spot the killer in 1638 ms. To make math simpler let's round it up to 2 second. during this time the killer gets 9.2 meters closer. So now the killer is 22.8 meters away. During this time the survivor runs in the exact opposite direction of the killer.
Remember, no powers, no pallets, no windows, just a straight line. In order for the killer to catch up to the 5 meters (lunge is 6 meters but taking into account human reactions and lag and spinning and such, we say 5) required for lunge distance the killer needs to move 17.8 meters to close the gap. The difference in movement speed between them is .6, this means the killer closes the 17.8 meter gap in 29.66 seconds. The killer then lands a hit.
The survivor then runs in a straight line and the killer is unable to move much for 2.7 seconds. During 1.8 of those seconds the survivor is moving at 6 m/s and for 4 m/s for .9 seconds. This means the survivor gets 14.4 meters way. The killer now has to close a gap of 9 meters for a lunge. It takes the killer 15 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit.
The killer now picks the survivor up taking 5.7 seconds (3 seconds for picking up, and 2.7 seconds for attack cooldown), and they walk to the nearest hook about 12 meters away. This takes 3.25 seconds, the hooking action takes 1.5 seconds.
The time to find this survivor, hit them once, catch up, hit them again, pick them up walk to a hook and hook them took: 29.66 + 15 + 5.7 + 3.25 + 1.5 = 55.11 seconds. This would mean the killer would likely lose 2 gens in the first chase. (just barely reaching the 3rd survivor before it finishes).
It's not about the survivor going 200 meters. You need to factor in survivor movement speed is 4.0 m/s and killer is 4.6 m/s. That means every second the killer gains .6 meters of distance, and they need to get to 6 meters to lunge. This means that a lead of 20 meters doesn't mean the survivor is downed in 4 seconds, it means the survivor is downed in 23.3 seconds. People highly overestimate how fast killers move in relation to survivors. And "Looping" allows you to run a straight line without actually running a straight line. So all you need is a decent sized structure that can't be mind gamed and you get your baseline of 55 seconds of time wasted.
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And then DH can add another 20s if it's not baited out somehow. Wonder how overcome compares with the actual numbers, though?
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Survivor post hit movement speed: 6.0 m/s so overcome would add 2 seconds of that, meaning an extra 12 meters of distance to cover. Which amounts to 20 seconds.
Dead hard adds the same numbers as the second hit, which would be another 15 seconds. The difference being that dead hard can work while injured, but overcome DOES NOT work while injured. So overcome technically adds more time, but dead hard is more reliable.
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Anything that takes away the freedom to make a decision would take away the basis of the game. But with that freedom you will get those that make the "bad" choices or in some view the path of least resistance. Better match making could solve the issue but that would require longer queue times for the top end with the risk of facing the same people over and over. Reminiscent of the old rank resets where the top ranks are thin for a week.
Not to mention any mechanical intervention would be immediately abused, similar to the previous DS.
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"But the fix to it is not to incentivize killers to do other things, or to disincentivize tunneling"
You are a dangerous person, its a good thing you have actually nothing to do with the balance of the game, please keep your "brilliant" balance ideas inside that rampaging imagination of yours, unless of course you want to be running around the map, doing gens and looping your fellow teammates, without a killer inside the game, maybe thats the fix you people wanted all along.
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I've always thought you could kill tunnelling so that if there is literally 3 hooks all on the same survivor all the other survivors get a 3rd health state.
Can't really be abused by 4 man teams as 1 person will always have no game every match if tried to be forced by the SWF
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I think this is the only reasonable answer. There needs to be more incentive for the killer to not remove a player asap that is not tied to perks.
Something that makes the game more manageable with gen speeds and map size.
I think a debuff to injured survivors or something would be good, as there is still times when it’s just better to rush a gen injured so it pops in the killers face despite knowing you’ll go down.
I don’t even know if that would be enough due to the insanely fast healing speeds atm.
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I'm a killer main, and i think survivors are overpowered. But solo queue needs help, and i want the game to be healthy. Better to fix camping and tunneling and then balance the game such that you don't have to do those things anymore. If the game requires you (either side) to play like an ######### to win, then the game isn't in a healthy state.
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For me tunneling is only a problem if it is used as a "strategy" from the start of the game, but tunneling as a reaction is fine. For example, if you tunnel one survivor who will die in the next hook because there are only two gens left and you need to reduce the number of survivor for winning is OK, I do this sometimes, but tunneling a guy with 5 gens left in after 1:30 minutes from the start of the game is disgusting, I never do this and I despise the people who do this when I'm playing survivor.
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Anyone who plays enough killer with a decent amount of experience knows the LAST survivor you chase is the one who wants you to chase them as they will almost certainly waste too much of your time and you will almost always catch them in a bad position later on if you are patient.
I too can make up an imaginary/hypothetical scenario as an example and then roll with that but we don't really get anywhere doing this.
The fact is, tunnelling ruins the game for others and no amount of copium from bad players trying to excuse their bad plays will change that.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
In other words: "Killer playing to win without using any third party software aka cheating ruins the game for other people."
"I too can make up an imaginary/hypothetical scenario"
Yes, you can and you have, for years upon years on end, its called "tunneling and camping", let me translate those for you, its called "playing the game", if you dont like it, go play single player games, multiplayer games aint for you.
Aight ima play to win 10x from now on, so the players that actually want to play single player games but dont know it yet will wisen up to that FACT, since you're speaking of facts.
Good luck with Elden Ring, i've heard its a hard game.
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The problem here is that you are completely glossing over the FACT that you ruin games for others when you tunnel. You don't have to tunnel, you just choose to as its easier than playing well for pressure.
You do understand I play killer right?
You can make any excuse you want for playing in an unpleasant way that ruins the game for others but don't be surprised or complain when the devs inevitably add more changes so you can't get away with it.
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no one is saying people can’t tunnel or camp, but people ABUSE what’s given to them. and those people should know it comes at a cost.
"killers playing to win without using any third party software aka cheating ruins the game for other people" is such an ignorant assumption.
killers tunneling and camping when the situation calls for it is strategic, harassing someone out of the game is entirely different.
let me break it down for you.
killers abusing a mechanic without much repercussion is not strategic. it’s oppressive and abusing game mechanics.
it seems you are here to just troll as you’ve been on other posts calling everyone bad, it makes me wonder if you’re in the same bracket as those bad players. which is probably why you’re here having a hard time understanding people differentiate camping and tunneling as a strat and completely harassing someone out of the game.
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"complain when the devs inevitably add more change"
Complain? Huh? Why would I complain about a new game? Im down!
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