Still no Eruption nerf?
Comments
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Sure.
But you cannot deny that survivor perks and killer perks are balanced very, very differently when nerfs come down the pipe.
Unless it's a survivor perk that's literally breaking the game and is impossible to balance without another complete rework (Boil Over), it'll get a slight tweak and still be viable. Hell, even reworked into something almost as good. See: Dead Hard, CoH.
Killer perks get the 'to the ground!' approach - see Ruin, Thana.
Not to mention the survivor complaint threads are never 'hey, here's this small change to make to Eruption which will let it be less annoying in solo queue but still good' - it's always 'nerf this completely out of the game'. Hell, I can link some posts.
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Somebody complains about the most busted, poorly designed perk in the game in a long time and this is your take. Lol
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For me ruin was fine,,strong effect but being a hex means u can possibly be left with 3 perks 1 minute into the game
Thana i have mixed feelings about ,,it was frustrating to go against on two killers only (plague / legion) because of how their power promote staying injured most of the time
Boil over on the other hand got both nerfed(rightfully so) and some hooks were added to places where people would go to be downed using that perk
My thoughts about eruption is either give it the tinkerer treatment (once per gen) or remove the incapacitated and slightly buff the regression part,,that perk is very close to old Dh when playing solo,,can't counter at all unless u're not doin gens which is counterproductive for survivors
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Ruin was fine. But it still got wall to wall complaints. So it got nerfed to complete uselessness.
STBFL is fine. But it still got wall to wall complaints. And once Eruption is gone, it'll probably be the next QQ target, until it too is nerfed to uselessness. Because, at the end of the day, it's not really about whether something has counterplay or not - it's about blaming whatever the current killer meta is for any losses you take.
There are still hook deadzones. Boil Over was nerfed because it essentially forced you to slug camp on some maps. It was one of those perks that just...cannot work as it stands, because it essentially unplays the game and there was zero counterplay - people were still unhookable with Agitation and IG.
Thana was a bit much - my point was that it got nerfed to complete uselessness, probably worse than it was before the buff. And that seems to be the only way to stop the complaining. If they'd just tweaked Thana slightly to still be viable, you'd have seen as much if not more QQ - because caving to QQ (as opposed to taking feedback on board) is the equivalent of feeding the pigeons; all you're going to do is attract more pigeons.
Watch this space regarding Nurse.
Those changes would make Eruption completely useless.
As I said - Eruption is fine against SWF. It's strong, but has counterplay. It's...a bit obnoxious as a solo, but I run Empathy and I think I'm getting pretty good at letting go before someone goes down now, based on reading how the other players are moving. However, again - I'm very, very tired of seeing stuff nerfed for the sake of solo queue, because that makes it completely and utterly crap against a decent SWF.
I say - if it's fine against SWF, let it stand.
And again - watch this space. If Eruption gets a small nerf, it won't be enough - and it'll probably just redouble the QQ.
If Eruption gets Thana'd, then the QQ will shift over to PR+DMS or STBFL again. Until that gets Thana'd (honestly, Ruined would probably be more apropos).
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Not even close to the same thing. I have no idea how you can compare Dead Hard to Eruption. They are not alike in any design capacity.
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Realistically you cannot know when a person is goin down based on just empathy,,sure the perk can be made useless against a swf on comms but that's not the case for most people + it doesn't feel right to be locked out of gens because another person goes down and u happened to be working on a gen ,,but i do agree devs miss the fine spot and either over nerf or over buff most of the times,,The perk will eventually be nerfed ,the question is when,,
I hope nurse makes it out in a decent spot after the addon changes,,,personally i only hated her strastruck builds which are now useless unless u wanna run some kind if walking nurse build
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The thing about Nurse (and 'insert x killer thing here') is that at a certain level it's not about balance - it's about the psychology of the game.
I don't know what it is about the survivor role, but people seem to go in expecting to escape, and anything that prevents this is viewed as a problem. And when something on the killer end of things gets viewed as OP, the QQ won't subside until it's removed from the game. Watch this space for 'Nurse nerfs didn't go far enough' threads.
Again - unless you give killers the option not to face SWFs (not going to happen, obviously), balance SWFs differently (also not going to happen, as per BHVR's emphatic statement) or adjust MMR to force SWFs to face more skilled killers than they would have as solos (also not going to happen, as per BHVR's statement) - there is no option but balancing the game around the SWF/killer matchup, even if that negatively impacts the solo queue experience.
That's the least unfair of a bunch of unfair options.
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Yeah i guess,you're right,,,but you can never know with the devs,,,i mean they nerfed calm spirit ,,you never know what to expect ^^
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The thing about eruption is it does need to be nerfed but that patch is going to need more than just an eruption nerf it's going to have to address bnps, hyperfocus, prove thyself, etc because rn gens are balanced around eruptions being a thing. Take eruption away and what's to stop survivors from blitzing gens anyway? Except now the regression is much less and it'll be even easier and games will be over in 4-5 minutes.
So it doesn't surprise me it's taking a while to nerf because there's way more moving parts to this than just nerfing eruption. BHVR unfortunately let the arms race go on too long and it's gonna take a while to untangle everything.
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...
I'm not comparing dead hard to eruption
I'm comparing two stupid "counter" suggestions
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There's no difference between the Pain Res counter and the Eruption counter. You simply stop progress right before a specific action, then proceed.
There is no such thing wtih Dead Hard. You have no idea when they are going to Dead Hard. They might not ever. They might be exhausted and you don't even know it. A killer MUST get downs to get Eruption value and a killer MUST get hooks to get Pain Res value. And both these things are becoming predictable in the next update.
There is no such thing for Dead Hard.
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For that logic then the killer shouldn't be punished for trying to down someone that was unhooked because the other players did a mistake, but survivors got a basekit BT in order to avoid those kind of situations so...
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With pain res you know exactly when to let go as the survivors aura appears briefly before getting hooked
With eruption you have nothing to go on. If you don't have visual of the chase you have zero indication of when the killer will down the chased survivor. Even if you know they are getting chased.
There couldn't be a bigger difference between the two. With one you have indication of the precise second of when to let go and with the other you have nothing at all
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Yeah I'll just go ahead and let go of any gen I assume may have been kicked by the killer whenever an injured person is being chased on the HUD. Too bad that 30 second chase went to waste cause I had to let go of the gen since I had no clue when the survivor was going down, but at least I countered eruption.
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Wrong Perk
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Yep. I would. In fact, it would be a perfect time to start putting progress on a brand new gen. And again, if your Survivor pal just ran the killer for over 30 seconds, grats. Every unkicked gen just got 1/3rd of all its progress done from a SINGLE CHASE.
Yeah, what a terrible spot your team is in. /s
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The issue with Eruption is the long, hard to avoid Incapacitation making the perk more effective than it should be on solos while also having no effect on SWF.
I don't know if Eruption needs a nerf, but the Incapacitation has to be easier to avoid in some way.
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I disagree about Eruption. To draw a comparison, I'll take pre 6.1 Dead Hard which was, as I've stated many times before, an abomination in game balance. Every Killer had to expect it because it was so overtuned practically every survivor ran it and it gave an increase in survivability that statistically outpaced every other exhaustion perk.
That's pretty much the exact same right now with Eruption. It's so overtuned that it is single handedly defining the meta just as pre 6.1 DH did. When I play survivor I am planning for Eruption just like I did with pre 6.1 DH when I would log in as Killer.
There are quite a few suggestions that have been proffered that don't involve gutting the perk such as increase regression while reducing incapacitation or blocking the gens affected instead of incapacitation. Blocking is my preference as a reverse DMS effect would even up the effectiveness among SWFs and solos and, if it can be evened up while being fair to the Killer, why not?
To be honest, I liked pre 6.1 Eruption and quite often ran it as it threw off the survivor's timing. It could have used a buff but what it got was too much in the post 6.1 version.
As it stands right now, Eruption has become almost as bad for the game as pre 6.1 DH was and needs a change. Suggesting that players run Empathy or be in a SWF to counter it is the same thing as the old 'just bait it out' arguments for DH.
While a lot of complaints are just the hey, I want things to be easier for my side variety Eruption isn't. It really needs a change.
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IMO the incapacitation has to go, effects that take away agency from players for long periods of time are awful, there is a reason they nerfed CCs in WoW from 50 seconds to 12 with diminishing returns from Vanilla to TBC, or why stunning on 2D fighters became super rare occurences or respawming times keep getting shorter on FPSs.
Its the same reason Killers HATE Flashbang+Head On+Flashlight chain squads even when they usually end up all dying, being unable to do anything for 3 to 5 seconds is ok but more than that looking at a screen without being able to play? Its absurd especially when there isnt any reasonable counter by half the playerbase.
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So stop doing gens whenever an injured person is in chase? That's a huge amount of wasted time not doing gens. What if the person in chase has Dead Hard and ends up adding 20 or 30 seconds to the chase, only to see their 3 teammates are standing around not doing gens. This is a ludicrous suggestion.
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Hmm.
Okay, a few things.
- Dead Hard was used at triple, if not quadruple the rate that Eruption is used. It was left like this for years. I don't see why there's such a massive rush to fix Eruption (yes, I'm being partially facetious, just making a point).
- Part of why Eruption is so common right now is because gen regression perks took a hefty nerf in 6.1.0, and the added gen time has melted away with the addition/buffing of some 'do gens faster' perks, leading to honestly probably faster gens than I've seen in ages.
- Eruption is...going off the stats we have available right now on Nightlight, not even the most commonly used regression perk. Again - this isn't defining the meta, because it only really shines against solo queue players.
- Increasing regression basically removes all the flavor from the perk, and turns it into a clunky version of PR or Surge. Blocking gens...it's an idea, but I can promise you right now that it won't even slow down the QQ train. Because the core issue people have with the perk is that you need to anticipate when someone's about to go down.
- Pre 6.1 Eruption was garbage. Like...almost Overcharge levels of garbage. It was purely a meme perk.
- It absolutely has not been close to the old DH. It's an annoying perk in solo queue, but it's absolutely not DH - DH had zero reliable counterplay and was used between 70 and 80% of the time at higher MMRs. Eruption, again going off Nightlight (which isn't perfect but does roughly correspond with what I see on top MMR streams) was hovering between 17 and 20% when I last checked.
- Does Eruption need a change? Eh...sure. If only because it'll further illustrate my point about how forum QQ works. Does it need the massive nerf that everyone is calling for? Absolutely not. Will anything short of a massive nerf stop the complaining? Not a chance.
...Do they? I enjoy these squads, it's nice to have some interaction with survivors that isn't slam gens/loop/hide in a bush.
Honestly, we need more stuff like that.
No.
- Note which gens the killer has kicked.
- If you're in a SWF, get people to call out when to let go.
- If you're in solo queue...firstly, why? Secondly, if you're working on a gen you know has been kicked, let go when you suspect someone is about to go down. I like Empathy, but a lot of folks enjoy Bond. There is a bit of a risk, sure - but this isn't as bad as folks make it out to be.
- If they managed to postpone the chase for that long, you've probably already finished the gen.
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I really doubt Nightlight has the correct
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People do hate bully squads even if they win, being chain stunned, then blinded, then flashbang can be infuriating for a lot of people with reason, I dont really mind them but I can understand why people dislike them.
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I still disagree. I sincerely doubt Nightlight has the actual usage stats but Eruption is the most commonly used gen regression perk I see. However, not changing it because of usage rates or how long it took DH to be changed are bad reasons to not change it. If it creates an increase in effectiveness that is out of line with other gen regression perks it needs to be changed. Either that or up the effectiveness of the arms race by increasing both gen speed and gen regression perks and then balance around that but I'd prefer toning down the outlier.
Increasing regression might turn it into a clunkier version of Surge or PR but those type of perks are going to happen. When I kick a gen I can either remove a scaling amount of progress with Pop, or create good regression for a minute with a skill check with Call, or create terrible regression that scales up to great regression with a skill check with Overcharge. There are only so many things perks can do and eventually ones will step on another's toes anyway. I prefer it being an outright block instead of incapacitation anyway.
However, that as well is still not a good reason to change or not change the perk. Eruption, in its current form, is close to as unhealthy for the game as per 6.1 DH was and that's why it should be changed. I don't care about stopping the QQ train when I post as I consider that a non-factor in most circumstances as well. As an example, Nurse just got her blink attacks changed to special but in two to three months we'll see more QQ about Nurse simply because she plays differently than all other Killers and many people don't like Killers with different counterplay. That wouldn't be a good reason for further nerfs as it ignores the people who enjoy Nurse and it wouldn't be right to change something that affects players solely because of QQ. There will always be QQ but even @Sluzzy made a decent point now and then, mostly by accident and very, very rarely, but it's worth considering QQ to see if there is any validity. Most QQ is just smoke and noise but sometimes you might find a fire and in Eruption's case I believe there is one.
Nearly every argument that was made to give DH it's long justified and awaited nerf can be applied to Eruption. I could be mistaken about its effectiveness but when I used pre 6.1 DH as survivor it felt far more effective than any other exhaustion perk. Eruption post 6.1 feels far more oppressive when I used it as Killer than any other gen regression perk I've used. Unless that's a just me situation, which is a possibility, that is definitely a valid reason to nerf Eruption. It's over tuned and is too effective in comparison to other gen regression perks.
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Literally any other slowdown perk is fine in pretty much anyone's eyes.
Just because people want a broken perk that happens to be in relation to gen progress nerfed, doesn't mean that pretty much all gen speed perks on the survivor side need nerfed in response.
I really wish people would stop acting as though Eruption is a killer's only option for a good perk, there are plenty of perks for killer that help combat fast gen progression aside from Eruption.
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And what if I'm the survivor on a generator with no telling on whether my teammate is gonna go down soon?
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If 'dragging games out longer than necessary' is your core grounds for complaint, the trick to avoid getting AFK crows while hiding in a locker for 20 minutes has been around forever. Shouldn't that be the top priority?
Yes, same with Eruption dragging out the matches since both can prolong the game for no good reason. Why would their priorities be separate when they both cause the same problems?
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technically you can't entirely, it's just by guessing (like another certain survivor perk of my knowledge), but it can be predicted easily by the movements of the killer or the chased survivor by a couple of specific perks (fogwise and emphaty)
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Which people? I mean...I'd love to know who specifically you're speaking about it, because I recall maybe one thread about this in the last year.
Ahahaha what?
No, seriously. You aren't new to the forums, so this is baffling to me.
Before Eruption, it was...well, STBFL, but before that Thana (and Penti).
Before Thana, it was Overcharge.
Before Overcharge it was PR+DMS.
Before PR+DMS it was the (already nerfed) Ruin+Undying and to a lesser extent, Pop and Tinkerer.
Before Ruin+Undying, it was the prenerf Ruin+Undying.
Nerf Eruption, and all that happens is you (and by 'you' I mean 'the forum survivors') will be back here to tomorrow complaining about PR+DMS. Because there's...something about this game that makes survivors go into a match expecting to escape.
Basically all the viable killer regression perks. Two of those were nerfed to complete uselessness due to forum QQ, two were nerfed pretty hard. Whatever the current killer meta is will not be fine, because it's far easier to blame perks/killer for a loss than error.
Gen speeds are honestly faster now than they were before 6.1.0, I'm fairly sure I've seen a thread (or it may have been a video) where folks mathed it out. Stake Out, Hyperfocus and PTS combine ridiculously well, throw a map offering in there and it's nuts. I've had multiple games over Christmas where despite getting constant chases and pretty rapid downs, I simply couldn't kill them fast enough to outpace the gens which were finished in <5 minutes.
I'm hesitant to nerf Eruption, because this cycle never ends.
Eruption is annoying in solo queue, but *this game cannot be balanced around solo queue*.
Nightlight is pretty representative of high MMR play. You can bear this out yourself easily - go watch Otz or another high MMR streamer play, and note the perks used. It'll match up remarkably closely over, say, 100 games.
Now, with high MMR play being where you'd see meta more, Eruption is likely less common elsewhere.
I brought usage rates up because about half these 'remove Eruption from the game NOW or I QUIT' type threads reference it's usage rate.
Pop isn't all that commonly used now, because by the time it's worth kicking that gen with pop, it's probably already done. And no, turning a flavorful and interesting perk into something deliberately bland and crap can't be an option, because that's really just moving backwards.
Overcharge...can't believe I forgot that one. Another target of QQ that got nerfed into barely being used.
Feedback is valuable. QQ is the product of an echo chamber. And I'm seeing very little feedback here. All I'm seeing is a lot of sour grapes from the killer buff patch finding another outlet. And if you want to see what I mean by sour grapes, just...go read the forums for a week or two after 6.1.0.
Again, you're missing my point though. Eruption is only the best regression perk against solos. Against a decent SWF, it'll work once, maybe twice in a game - which is why usage rates still have PR higher, at least the last time I checked. DH was universally oppressive - which is why, again, you saw it at 80% rates at higher MMRs. And yes, at the very least, it demonstrates that BHVR approach balance differently when it comes to survivor perks - another reason why this puts my teeth on edge.
Another problem that people aren't seeing is that killers...just don't have many universally good perks that aren't info or regression.
Info perks start getting redundant fast, which is why you'll bring one, or maybe 2 if you're using LP. Regression perks got nerfed hard, and while gen speeds were nerfed in theory, this was undone by buffing gen speed perks and adding more.
Outside of these...what universally good perks do killers even have?
Because...what's good for the goose is good for the gander? If you're concerned about stalling games out, then I'm not sure why you're hyperfixated on Eruption.
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Complain threads are made on the forums, Reddit and generals about bully squads being a pain in the butt and streamers do complain when they get people going for those kind of gimmicky games where they enter mainly to pester the Killer with that kind of antics.
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'Bully squad' isn't 'people memeing with head-on'.
Where, specifically, are streamers complaining/people making forum threads en-masse about this? Because I haven't seen it - and I'm genuinely curious.
EDIT: A bully squad, from my understanding, is usually a strong SWF who stack the best perks, a map offering and then refuse to end and are BM.
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Bully squad for me is people who enter a game with intent on pissing off the Killer, usually ignoring the objective, obviusly is not only "I got Head On, then Flashlight, then Flashbang" thats only one of the setups used to frustrate Killers, there are a lot more.
Bully squad on the search throws 1,8k comments which is a big number, if you search only for "bully" you get almost 11k, and thats people who used those exact terms to talk about it (doesnt count any complains not using those words), Streamers complain when they get one and its a spur of the moment, they dont come here to make threads about it and its usually the small time ones, you are not going to see Otz or others ranting about those because its not something a lot of their viewers want to see.
Also the complains are usually posted on threads complaining about toxicity not exactly about SWFs or squads, you read one of those is rather normal to see the term being used.
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Shrug. Okay.
Let's look at the first few by 'Best Match'. Feel free to do this yourself for 'Newest' if you'd like.
- Sweat squad.
- BM squad.
- BM squad.
- "For those who dont know a bully squad is classified as usually a 4 man swf with flashlights with the intent of bullying the killer by flashlight clicking at them, tbagging and using meta perks.". No mention of Head On.
- The post I mentioned, way back in March.
- Sweat squad.
- Ambiguous.
- Ambiguous, but mostly just BM.
- Unhookable squad.
Went a bit further, still only one mention of Head On.
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Bully squads have many tools to piss off Killers and mass Head On is one of them, used by 3 or 4SWFs to keep stunning the Killer during chases nonstop while nobody fixes gens or does anything but flock around, sometimes even going as far as managing to reset the Exhaustion before using it again, Ive seen streamers doing this, Ive seen streamers suffering this, Ive even seen this ingame as a Solo paired with a 3SWF and I could tell the Killer wasnt liking show which was confirmed when they ended up ranting on postgame chat, now that doesnt mean all bully squad rants are exactly about that perk but its common sight among that kind of playstyle and again, is not a few uses of Head On what people dislike, is the continuated use of it, usually with someone leading to specific locations with the entire team waiting and with little real value other than stunning the Killer because "lols" as the chased guy doesnt even keep running to gain distance.
My example was about people not liking losing control for extended periods of time, they have to wait until everyone uses their gimmick to keep playing, which was my point as why Ecrutchion is bad gameplay design, you dont get to play, you get to stare at a screen while other people play and without much counterplay, now you can still quote this and keep going "I dont see complains about Head On" but this is reaching absurdity.
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Shrug. You mentioned Head On, which is what surprised me.
Yeah, nobody likes not being able to do stuff - but that's sadly a fundamental part of the survivor role. It's why I still enjoy killer more - being slugged, being on hook, even sitting on gens is boring.
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Ah yes so for me to have a chance at not being inflicted with incapacitated for 30 seconds I need to either use a perk that's locked behind a paid content and also RNG based or use a different perk that still not any good because telling whether a survivor is gonna go down through seeing their aura is near impossible.
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Eruption desperately needs a nerf. It's busted and carrying killers right now. I don't understand why anyone would defend this perk in its current state. It's ridiculous. Was hoping we would get the nerf to Eruption in this update, but I guess not.
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Yeah, this is mindblowing!
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It's not so much defending Eruption, it's pushing back against the 'literally whatever the killer meta is at any given time must be OP and immediately nerfed' mindset here.
There are ways to make Eruption less oppressive for solos while still being a good perk - but you know, and I know, that it won't be enough.
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If you're off the gen for even 7 seconds, you have stalled your progress on that generator even more Eruption would have cost you over the entire 25 seconds of regression. The incapacitation effect needs to go. It still gives 10% instant regression and a scream. That's more than enough for a single perk.
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10% is nothing if it doesn't yeet the survivor - by the time the killer is a threat, you'd already have caught up. And that requires a full kick to set up.
You'd basically just be junking the perk, ala Thana and Ruin. The only reason PR still sees play is because of DMS and that interaction.
As others have suggested, make Eruption work on hook, not on down. Or make it a gen block rather than an incap, so people can do other things.
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That's just not true, Pain Res is still very popular to just run on it's own.
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Huh. I figured wrong. In my defense, this is what looking at web pages is on my screen right now.
Looking into it a bit I'm guessing it's part of the COB/Eruption combo, but that's actually interesting.
Regardless, my point is that the specific nerf I was responding to would junk Eruption completely, because it would basically be a much worse PR.
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Then that is where you need to make a read and make the call. Do I get off or not?
Some people want perfectly spoonfed "counterplay" that works ALL the time.
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1st you can still found those perks in the shrine of secrets, so they are POTENTIALLY locked behind a paid content, but you still have the chance to take them FOR FREE.
2nd welcome to dbd, where not everything can be counterable: how can a killer can counter stake out, hyperfocus, inner healing, blast mine, repressed alliance, etc etc and how can a survivor can counter shadowborn, lightborn, thinkerer, etc etc? That's right, you can't
3rd in that instance i offered the possible counters for that perk, if you consider them not worth to take it in exchange of other perks that's your problem... it's like going aganist a flashlights team squad and complaining about not having counters despite lightborn was made for that purpose because you want run other perks
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Next patch is buffing the survivor sharing info action (Free bond perks) to give out info for chasing and such. Let see how this perk will perform.
I think the reasons many survivor here compliant is because they bring mostly second chance perk to the game. So, less info from other survivor make going down.
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The new chaser icon on the HUD will def help solos with Eruption, if you mean that...
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I do. Previously Eruption was an issue because there was nothing you can do except not do gens at all. Which is dumb, obviously. Unless you knew for a fact a gen was never touched that game, you pretty much blundered into it.
With the new HUD telling you someone is now in chase, you now have to make a judgement call. "Do I stay on it a bit longer, or do I get off of it?"
And there are people that are like "Well, that's not fair because you can't know for sure!".
Because they demand counterplay that literally works 100% of the time. And they don't seem to understand that in a 4v1 having the power to completely negate and shut down an action from the 1 by the 4 is horribly bad game design.
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And still SWFs are able to counter Eruption almost every time and more efficient. But the subtle help for solos was actually smart.
Overall, killers will still prioritize Eruption. Because with Pain Res, the counter for ALL survs is just too easy.
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Okay 1. It be real nice if people didn't pretend taking 30 seconds off a gen was healthy for the game. They increased gen times for a reason.
2. Eruption holds the entire gen kick build together. Call of Brine is fine but Overcharge is a joke because a good team will rarely miss the skill checks and it actually causes less regression unless you camp the gen for a bit and Pop is mediocre.
So get rid of Eruption and we are literally going back to the old meta of Pain Res and DMS which pretty much only works once unless the survivor team is braindead and nowhere near as strong. So we have weakened gen regression but gen progression kept the strongest it's ever been. Doesn't sound like the path to balance to me.
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