Something to consider: What did DS get replaced by?
Ostensibly, it's OTR: Both are very clearly marked as anti-tunnel perks since they offer protections to a survivor that has been unhooked as long as they don't get/take the opportunity to help their teammates. OTR is basically couched in the same language that DS was, that marked DS as an anti-tunnel perk, so it's reasonable to assume that OTR replaced DS.
And while I think that was the intent, I also think that the result was something else entirely.
First off, one thing I've noticed is that, despite the gen times going up from 80 to 90, a lot of killers still complain that gens are going too fast. I'd say almost more so than before 6.1. I initially wrote it off as shifting standards, but then I saw a response to someone complaining about the gen-regression meta, where someone said something along the lines of
"Suck it up, we've dealt with a DH, DS, UB, BT meta for years"
So I made a half-joking response of 'how nice, survivors coming in with only DH, as long as you don't play like a jerk'.
But that got me thinking about what happened with DS going out and BT becoming partially basekit. UB is basically collateral, since its primary value was in weakening the killer's counterplay to DS, which was to just slug and not pick up. But with those three meta perks out of the picture, that opened up three new slots for survivors to pick perks in.
And I don't think OTR is one of them.
I think it's Prove Thyself and Hyperfocus that took their places.
Which is why the gens feel like they've been going faster. Without anti-tunnel and anti-camp clogging up the survivors' loadouts, they've got space for new perks. And you might think that that would make for more variable gameplay, but then we run into another problem:
Tunnelling and camping still need to be countered, as they're extremely efficient strategies.
So what counter do people gravitate to, now that perk bandaids are a non-viable solution?
'Just do gens'.
Unfortunately, unlike with tunnelling, where a killer can decide to adopt this strategy halfway through the game in order to improve their chances of winning, survivors don't really have that choice. They can't wait for the killer to start tunnelling someone off their first or second hook and -then- decide 'well, time to grab my genrush perks'. Which leads to teams picking and using genrush tactics against killers that don't tunnel.
And unlike DS, those genrush tactics -do- work really well against killers that don't tunnel.
So to summarise, I think that the replacement for DS was intended to be OTR, but it worked out to being 'genrush'. Is that a crazy interpretation?
Comments
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It's not crazy nor do I think it's wrong.
Both sides basically need to come out playing sweaty if they want a good shot to win. You just don't know who you're up against and playing chill will almost always get you a quick loss. I believe I was speaking to @StarLost earlier today about just this.
Both the gen time increase and the DS nerf have encouraged more gen rushing, which has sped up games. At the same time, Killers started to tunnel more since DS is no longer meta, which even further incentivizes the gen rush style, which then encourages more tunneling. It's a viscous cycle
Post edited by Pulsar on5 -
I think gens feel like they are going faster simply because killers before could, let's be honest, run to stop a hook save, then LET you get the unhook for a free instadown on the victim as their feet hit the ground and put them back on the hook. It's what Borrowed Time so critical.
It was an instant second hook state. Now, there's a second chase involved. It's common for unhooked Survivors to make it to windows or pallets, where they can make up those lost 10 seconds of added gens time.
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Nyerr...tumpty tumpty (and other non-committal noises) - here's the thing. (Long answer incoming).
- BHVR buffs gens by 10 seconds.
- BHVR nerfs the majority of regression perks.
Okay, makes sense.
However:
- BHVR buffs faster gen perks (or leaves strong ones untouched).
- BHVR adds in very strong gen perks. PTS/Hyperfocus/Stakeout are the big 3.
Now they've basically undone what they were trying to accomplish, and killers have to stack more regression/rely on the only regression perks that weren't destroyed.
Beyond this...meta here is a toxic ouroboros.
A squad of survivors come in with a 'win no matter what' mindset, doing everything they can to get a 4o. A killer comes in for a fun, chill game - runs into that squad, gets two hooks with all the gens being done in about 4 minutes and told to uninstall in postgame.
So that killer goes 'yeah, sod this', loads up their strongest perks and addons - then runs into a group of survivors looking for a fun chill game, 4ks them at 4 gens and they get annoyed. So that squad switches to HSFP and pummels their next killer, and because they feel justified in 'punishing' killers, they are jerks to her on top of it.
On and on it goes.
Now - watching some of the recent tournament games, you can see how - in lab conditions - killers need to tunnel, slug, camp and use every single tool at their disposal...often to get at most 1-2 kills on a pretty killer sided map. That's how strong SWF is at the redline.
When you run into a strong SWF, this game can feel completely unwinnable unless you play equally sweaty yourself. So you go sweaty from the start, because if you don't - and you are facing a strong SWF - you're going to lose and get gloated at. And by the time you realize that it's actually a bunch of solos, you've already got 2 DCs.
Genrush isn't a response to tunneling. Tunneling isn't a response to genrush. All of these 'sweaty' strats are generally a response to running into a few nasty opponents, getting BM'd and deciding that you're going to try and stop that from happening again.
But...
I do lean somewhat towards sympathizing with killers, because there's a definite double standard here. For some reason, it's completely acceptable for survivors to do anything to win (and be nasty after), but a killer going all out - that's somehow a problem.
Best example: mercy. There is a clear expectation for killers to show mercy to the final survivor, and if they don't they're going to get cussed out and called sweaty. But there's zero expectation of a team giving a killer a mercy kill to stop them from depipping.
Ditto - BM. I've been putting together some numbers, and - even factoring in the 4v1 nature of the game, it's maybe 8x as likely for a survivor to teabag and sit in the exit gates to gloat than, say, a killer hitting the last person on hook.
Similarly, I see a killer bail in less than 1/20 of games.
I see a survivor AFK/suicide/DC in almost 1/3 of games (I think that right now I've got it at 32% of games, which is *stupid*) - and that's with me playing incredibly fair and bringing flans or streamers.
There's clearly a psychology at play here that's different between the two sides.
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Well, here's the thing with your stats, you aren't all 4 Survivors.
The Killer could very well be head-shaking or nodding at other Survivors and you'd have no way to know.
Likewise, that ratio you have is actually pretty good. You see 4x as many Survivors as you do Killers, so that tracks pretty well.
Also, Ruin and PGTW got nerfed, but PR got left the same and Eruption and Overcharge got buffed. I'd say that's a net neutral change for gen regression.
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- BHVR buffs faster gen perks (or leaves strong ones untouched).
- BHVR adds in very strong gen perks. PTS/Hyperfocus/Stakeout are the big 3.
You're kind of losing me here, because the only perk that was added was Hyperfocus, and none of the gen perks were changed in 6.1.
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The line "killers change their strat to tunneling to improve the chances of winning" highlights the issues well enough.
Killers arent able to win equal matched players without such tactics and then even stacked slowdown is needed if you're playing anything but the top killer on a decent map..
I'm not sure why people dont see how certain changes or balances force certain playstyles. Ever since tunneling has been a thing iv been saying you need to reward and encourage players that dont alongside slightly punishing those that do as atm tunneling can often be more beneficial for the killer.
As for the perk changes OTR will replace DS simply because is so much stronger and before the DS nerf the OTR change made it's way to meta just because of it's pure strength as its not just good for a single use.
The meta shake up change killer more imo, while it's still gen defense (needed) its different. Only thing changed on survivor is DS for OTR and base BT so you kinda get a 5th perk now.
I'm not sure what your post is actually aiming for though? DS basekit? Probably be abit much now but I have always said DS could be basekit if the killer got some love to allow them to go for chases over kills, base corrupt and a reward for actually hooking someone new would be a start
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The issue is that the reward for not tunneling would have to be MASSIVE in order to stop people from tunneling. Killing someone off ASAP is so so so strong that I don't think there's an incentive that could convince me not to try.
I think a better thing to try is to make 3v1's less Killer favored and make 4v1's less Survivor-favored.
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There's no anti-tunnel currently. Or rather, tunnel dissuasion. Not even genrush. You can tunnel through the sweatiest genrush. Heck, even more so because perks even deactivate when completing all gens.
OTR doesn't fill the same niche as DS, although it was obviously meant to. I suppose the intention was to shift from situations where the killer and the survivor have long downtime respectively due to a stun and a slug. But it didn't work out at all. And tbh, it was the most overrated survivor perk, maybe because there's people stuck in the ptb mindset when endurance stacked. But on live its anti-tunnel functionality is a complete failure, while it can be used offensively to punish non-tunnelers.
Get unhooked, get healed, steal aggro from another chase. Congratulations, you can tank a hit from healthy to injured, then into deep wound thanks to endurance that you retain and you can cap it off with a Lithe play if you wish. Killer gets penalized for spreading hooks.
However, if you want to tunnel, you literally just need a pair of headphones to know if the perk is in play. M1 them immediately. There goes your anti-tunnel. And your DH. And your medkit with fancy add-ons.
You could argue that a tunneler would just wait out the base unhook endurance in normal instances, making OTR somewhat effective at forcing distance. However, hitting inmediately and then catching up after 15s to get rid of OTR is functionally the same as waiting out 10s when there's no OTR. In both cases the survivor gets to a resource, but in the former deep wound denies other defenses.
If basekit unhook endurance didn't put survivors into deep wound (à la MoM) and if endurance was lost upon fully healing, then we could make a case for OTR to be anti-tunnel.
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Well if you reward those that dont and punish those that do, together those changes will make a huge impact. Alone it wouldn't work as either way would either not be enough or too much like you said.
There has been many things in the game which could be changed or did encourage keeping 4 alive. Alot of powers can simply be made better in the 4v1 and slightly weaker as you take people out but that's alot of work on BHVRs part and I dont see them doing that, afterall they still dont even understand map design so just easier for a little reward and punishment simultaneously
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Then why don't all killers tunnel every game?
Tunnelling isn't actually fun for the killer. I don't tunnel unless I'm forced to by survivors offering themselves up to me. I prefer to run perks like Make Your Choice and Gift of Pain, and info perks like BBQ and Thrilling to give me another objective besides the hooked survivor. Those perks are enough to stop me tunnelling. Any perk that gives me a benefit for not eliminating a survivor prematurely would get me to not tunnel at all. Any basekit effect that does the same would also convince me not to tunnel. I don't think I'm an outlier here, most killers want to have fun playing the game, not simply win at any cost.
"I think a better thing to try is to make 3v1's less Killer favored and make 4v1's less Survivor-favored."
Is that not exactly the same thing as rewarding killers for not tunnelling?
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Mm, okay I should have been clearer.
PTS was left untouched and that perk was strong before 6.1.0. BHVR said they'd 'keep an eye on it' but nothing happened.
Hyperfocus, yeah.
Stakeout (for some reason I keep thinking it was buffed in 6.1.0 but it was yonks ago) has crept back into the meta thanks to Hyperfocus and, honestly, Fogwise. The synergy between these three perks in SWF is absolutely insane. Gens just liquify, especially if it's a SWF that builds around this and sends you to The Game, where Stakeout will just constantly be getting charges.
Eh...again, I don't think you can really show causation either way. It's a chicken/egg situation.
I do think that what's driving things forwards though is how toxic survivors can be in victory, which definitely encourages killers to play sweaty to prevent this.
DS is still a good perk. I was also surprised at the nerf, but watching it constantly pop up in the recent tournaments...it's still plenty strong. OTR is a problem perk because against weaker killers, it can be obnoxious while other killers can essentially ignore Endurance, or abuse one or two tricks to completely negate it (Clown, PH and Cenobite are the three I can think of).
The problem with killer and meta is that you've got less room for fun stuff - you need to build around 16 potential perks on the other side that can range from 'chill' to 'you'll lose 3 gens between starting a chase and hooking - and it's not a long chase!'.
DS basekit - no. Like...I go out of my way not to tunnel, but you'd just have people endlessly bodyblocking to force you to eat it.
Eh...sure? And maybe that tips the stats a bit either way, but not significantly. A killer isn't going to be obnoxious to one survivor and not others - unless that survivor has gotten under their skin. It just wouldn't make sense.
Head shaking/nodding...I don't think that's always BM either, from either end. When I'm talking about BM, I'm not talking about playful banter.
I'm talking more like:
- Teabagging from the exit games (unambiguously BM gloating)
- Hitting on hook while camping/a survivor is being sacrificed (ditto)
- Postgame nastiness.
Survivors are significantly more likely to engage in this sort of behavior and you can test it out for yourself. Over the next while, do 100 games of survivor and 100 games of killer. I'm building a little dataset of my own right now, over 8 weeks, which will hopefully be done by the 16th (I'm ending it once all my flans are gone, then taking a break from the game).
The interesting question is - why?
Oh, naturally I'm accounting for the 4:1 disparity here. But I'll go into that more when I do my thing later this month, it's actually been...eye opening. On average, survivors are significantly more likely to be BM within the definitions I've set (almost double the rate, if I account for the ratio).
As for regression perks:
- Ruin is useless.
- Thana is useless.
- PGTW is...not useless, but incredibly niche and situational.
- PR lost it's info component, but still decent. Just an annoyingly volatile perk with how stupidly big the new maps always are. I only use it on Hag, Slinger and Trickster, for obvious reasons.
- DMS got nerfed, but still decent if you pair it with PR.
- Overcharge got buffed, then nerfed hard, to the extent that it's generally worse than an empty slot unless you're pairing it with other regression perks (and even then...). Keep in mind that it takes 12 seconds to reach standard regression rates - and 12 seconds is a pretty long time. Yes, it's better than the old Overcharge, but, honestly, not by much.
- Surge is...a perk that can feel good, but if you're getting downs fast enough that the cooldown removal really comes into play, you'd probably win anyway.
- Penti is okay, but the counterplay is stupidly easy and most groups know what to do now.
- CoB is still good, but that's more about it fitting into the new kicky meta well.
- Eruption is the only outlier here.
I probably could have made it better, but my point was that most of the regression perks that killers have access to now need to be paired with other regression perks to shine. That should have come with the baseline slower gen speeds (your 'net neutral'), but in practice that's not what actually happened.
What seems to have happened is strong teams making gens go faster than before, and killers now having to dedicate more of their build to reach that net neutral - the exact opposite from what was intended.
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Gen rush is not happening because anti-tunneling perks were nerfed and resulted in less chases.
Gen rush is happening because they nerfed how quick a generator can be completed - resulting in people specifically bringing in gen rushing builds and focusing on doing generators more. This is further perpetrated by the fact that Killers have generally gotten more aggressive with tunnelling/camping which gives lee-way to those that are doing generators to keep doing so.
Especially now that the meta is to identify the three-gen and camp it with killers like Knight.
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He's cherry picking to make it seem like the killer situation is hopeless.
There have been exactly two gen perks buffed since 6.1: deja Vu got a 5% gen speed boost to only the gens you see for those 60 seconds, and Overzealous was increased from 5% to 8% for dull and 10% to 16% for hex. These are the perks he's complaining about. Oh no, not Overzealous...
He's also ignoring that less than half of gen slowdown changes were nerfs: the meta perks like ruin, pop, corrupt, Thana ended up with a net nerf over a couple patches, and I'll even be charitable and say Tinkerer is on the list.
Buffs were: Jolt has no cooldown now, base kit gen kick removes 2.5%, Eruption regression increased and longer incap, overcharge now speeds up to 200%, Gift of Pain penalty increased, Pain Res only lost information (not regression), and combined with DMS the combo is literally unchanged. And 10 extra seconds to base kit gen times on top of all that, so things like Pentimento and Dying Light, which didn't receive direct numbers changes, are proxy buffed by the extra 10 seconds on all gens.
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Always has been. You see, the REAL problem aren't the perks that were changed/nerfed/buffed, nor the basekit added for survivor: THE MECHANICS are the real problem about this game. As killer in order to have more chances of winning you HAVE to tunnel: 1 survivor out of the game will reduce the POTENTIAL efficiency of survivor of 25%/50% if not more, while doing mixed hooks will only make easier the escape for the survivors since their POTENTIAL efficiency will stay at 100%/75% and as survivor you HAVE to rush gens in order to activate the exit gates: why wasting time searching stuff in the chests or doing totems, risking of being killed if hooked too many times when you can do all this later with all the time at your disposal once the exit gates are powered? (unless the killer itself will open the exit gates, but you get the idea why it's always better rush gens instead of doing other things)... mind you that also the devs tried to nerf camping and tunneling while nerfing gen regression perks in the meantime without giving other valid options for the killers in order to keep up the pace with the survivor speed at accomplishing their goal (and despite all this tunneling and camping are STILL the best strategies in the game to do)
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The other thing to keep in mind here: tunneling and camping for the sake of tunneling and camping isn't the way to counter gen rushing if the survivors are coordinated, and recklessly rushing the gens against a good killer will get you 4k'd.
A lot of player frustration stems from trying and failing with counters that aren't really counters at all. The public match meta in this game is really simplified and lacks any nuance. Players often cite camping and tunneling in comp, but it doesn't happen in every game because it's not always the right play.
I always wonder about the context when I see threads saying "I did X sweaty thing and still lost" (not saying this is one of those threads). Yes, the meta is a vicious cycle right now, but players often do themselves zero favors.
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Most Killers do tunnel in almost every game, in my experience.
Tunneling may not be fun for the Killer, but it is easy and reliable. That's what casual players are after. What gives me the easiest and most reliable path to victory?
No, it's not quite the same thing as rewarding Killers for not tunneling. It's changing how the game works. It's de-incentivizing tunneling by making the benefit you get from it less. Right now, you get such a huge reward for making the game a 3v1 that it really doesn't matter what you give Killers. Getting someone out ASAP will always be better unless the reward is outrageously OP.
By changing the general balance of the game to be less Survivor-favored in a 4v1, you make those players who feel like they must tunnel a little less likely to tunnel AND you make the Survivors who lost someone almost immediately not instantly lose.
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I just think saying “well if we cripple or weaken survivors at the start killers won’t tunnel as much” is wishful thinking. If you did that to me I’d still turn it into 3v1 and there isn’t anything you could suggest that would somehow cripple me as killer in a 3v1 situation. It’s just too easy to basically win then.
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Absolutely nothing. Why do you think every single high MMR match is first survivor that gets found gets tunneled out immediately? Pretty good job so far!
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Of course, it wouldn't work. Players who want to win always minmax the path of least resistance. If you want to discourage certain interactions, incentivizing the alternative is only half of the formula. The other half is to actually make the problematic option less advantegeous.
You can make gens take 5 min each and hard tunneling would still be the superior strategy.
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Oh, I could think of plenty to cripple the Killer in an early 3v1.
if gen ≥ 4 then if Survivor dies,
remove 2 closest gens from the trial
Honestly, for me, the harder part is how to weaken Survivors during the 4v1 phase.
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Gen rush is not happening because anti-tunneling perks were nerfed and resulted in less chases.
I'm not so sure about that. Both the anti-tunnel nerf and the gen timer increase happened in the same patch, so we can't just look at stats and conclusively state it was one or the other, but I think survivors would be more keen on arming themselves against tunnelling through perks that punish it, if they still could, than on genrushing.
Killers arent able to win equal matched players without such tactics and then even stacked slowdown is needed if you're playing anything but the top killer on a decent map..
That's not the whole of it though. What a killer can or cannot win is also in part dependent on the skill of the player. People like to point at professional, tournament level play, but disregard that this does not represent 99% of the game.
Additionally, the idea that you can't win against equally skilled survivors has a self-reporting issue: How do you determine your own skill? How do you know the survivors you are going up against are actually of your skill level? Especially when tunnelling or camping come into play as methods to bolster your MMR as a result of getting more kills, how do you know that you wouldn't be able to handle survivors of your skill level if you let MMR settle without tunnelling?
And it's not just that, either. My first game as killer when I picked the game back up, I committed to an absolutely atrocious chase where I spent over a minute on a single loop, trying to get the hang of Pinhead's power again. Once I got the down, I could've easily stated that, because the survivors got so many gens done on that chase, I -have- to tunnel. But that disregards that the reason I am in a losing position is because of my own incompetence, not because the game is unfairly balanced.
Tunnelling just muddies the water when it comes to balancing and skill assessment.
Is that not exactly the same thing as rewarding killers for not tunnelling?
Not quite. I wouldn't call it a 'reward' to be spared when a new problem is created. But it is kind of necessary to create problems for tunnelling in order to dissuade it, because even if 12-hooking is/were to be as viable as tunnelling, tunnelling will likely be easier, and will still be on the table as an option to bully people.
Someone suggested at one point that Ruin self-disabling when a survivor dies is kind of a starting point. Maybe some of the more meta perks should be changed to have variable degrees of effect based on how many survivors are in the game. Some could be bumped up to be stronger if there's four survivors, while weakening when there's three or fewer.
That'd be a pretty complex overhaul though.
Another option that comes to mind is an older idea I had for a hypothetical 'post-camp/tunnel' DBD, which is where the co-op action penalty gets reversed. IE: You work slower when alone, but faster when together. If this effect were to weaken as survivors are eliminated, that could incentivise survivors to stick together early on, making it easier for the killer to put out pressure, but then as survivors die, that benefit would dissipate.
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Ah yes, the famous nerfed eruption, pain resonance, scourge hook gift of pain, surge and overcharge /s
Not gonna read the rest of that wall of text when the premise is that
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You shouldn’t try to weaken survivors at the start of a match because that is when (and the only time) they have the advantage. The longer survivors are in the match, the weaker they become—hence why creating a 3v1 is so efficient for killers. The strength of survivors are in their numbers. Even with 3 survivors completing 3-4 gens is nearly impossible and at best may create a 2K-2E.
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That's kind of the point
If you want to penalise tunnelling by making it not more efficient than spreading hooks (i.e., buffing 3 survs etc.), then you need to offset that by lowering the baseline survivor efficiency.
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Well, of course you didn't. Because then you wouldn't have made yourself look a little silly. Although I'm not sure you even read the premise (unless you aren't sure what 'majority' means XD).
- I mentioned eruption as an outlier which is why, surprise surprise, you see it so much.
- PR got nerfed.
- GOP is a terrible perk only really of use on instadown killers, and even then. There's a reason nobody uses it.
- Haha Overcharge...worse than an empty slot unless you pair it with actual good perks or are playing against actual sloths. 12 seconds before it's as good as standard kick regression. I'm actually not convinced that old Overcharge was worse as a one slot perk.
- Surge is...well, buffed, but the cooldown was never that much of an issue. If you're downing people fast enough for the cooldown to be much of a factor, you were probably going to win anyway.
Cliffnotes as you're not a reader: Regression was supposed to get nerfed while gen timers are longer. But this is only true on paper.
Ahaha WHAT?
Okay, where do I start here?
- Genrush is happening because of Hyperfocus, and the ridiculous synergy it has with other perks in a coordinated team.
- Camping and tunneling have never been harder or less rewarding within recent memory. Assuming that killers camp and tunnel to win easier...why would they be doing it more?. That does not make an iota of sense.
- How are they camping a 3 gen while tunneling a survivor?
- In my last maybe 120 survivor games, I've seen 1 killer camp a 3gen that we didn't do to ourselves. And we were able to bum rush it and eventually get a 2o.
Really? Maybe it's a stupid high MMR thing, but even watching Otz, Tofu and co - the only killers I see hard tunneling on the regular are Clowns, PHs and Cenobites, and that's due to silly design oversights that allow them to ignore BT.
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Handicapping survivors doesn’t punish tunneling. Like ??? Are you awake?
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Of course not, but you're kind of missing the context of the conversation there.
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Because longer gen times = More time to Camp/Tunnel.
Camp/Tunnel is seen more in matches = Survivor’s survival chance decreases as the need for OTR becomes more likely (hell sometimes even that’s not enough) So they opt for the next thing = Rushing gens as fast as possible.
It’s also important to mention that while not every single killer plays this way, it is more common than not to have killers who do use these playstyles do it while 4-5 gens remain. All while having Slow downs galore. So that in and of itself encourages survivors to play as if they are going against that every match.
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honestly i think DS got replaced by the new dead hard. as weird as that sounds think of a single other perk that as a killer you have constantly play around as much as the new DH.
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That doesn't really work, since Dead Hard was also in the old meta build. If DH and DS were used before the change, and DH is still used after the change, it didn't really replace DS.
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Hyperfocus has a 2% pickrate compared to prove which has nearly a 20% pickrate. Hyperfocus is in no way meta. DS got replaced with OTR, COH, and adrenaline imo. Adrenaline solves that endgame tunnel scenario if the killer hooks you before the last gen pops. Which is what DS did before they made it deactivate during endgame.
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Prove is also: A) on Dwight, and B) gives bonus BP.
It's like singling out old BBQ for having a high pickrate and saying that this clearly makes it the most powerful info perk and that must be why everyone's using it. The main difference being it was on a licensed killer rather than one of the immediately unlocked characters.
The question is if hyperfocus is trending up or down in usage.
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Uh, that's not what he's saying.
He's saying that tunneling is essentially required at the higher levels of play (just watch a tournament) - and killers will still routinely finish with <2 kills.
If the devs add additional nerfs to killers, then survivors will need to be nerfed too.
It's almost like Hyperfocus is a perk that needs a SWF to shine? And also new. And $$$. Give it a year or two and a few rounds in the Shrine - you'll see it more.
It's absolutely meta - but not in solo queue. I think I saw it in almost every single match in the community cups, because it's very strong and also synergizes insanely well with Fogwise and Stakeout.
DS is still bloody useful.
I'm keeping an eye on it.
I almost never see it when I face solos, but the teams that have brought it and built around it have annihilated me. I'm not exaggerating when I say that these were the fastest I've ever seen gens done since I started playing.
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Okay I cant beat people my own skill, while saying all killers cant beat their own skill is probably a lie at the lower mmr/skill level.
I have never understood why people find it so hard to judge skill? I feel that's more due to the very casual base players that only want to look at one stat and that just doesnt work especially for DBD. While other games you can kinda go of K/D or something DBD isnt like that, though even in games like halo for example k/D isnt the only show of skill you have map control, rotations, grouping, ditching etc. Etc. Which are all different levels of skill and DBD is the same you cant just look at one thing like most do
As someone who does play games at a high level and actually does judge skill of many different aspects and playing DBD since its release I have a vast knowledge of the game and able to judge what skillful is.
So being able to judge skill you can soon see if you win because the other side was weaker etc. Especially with the maps designs and half the roster making alot of tiles safe or so time wasting the killer would lose. Luckily SBMM isnt very good and I dont get a full team of my skill level or gens would fly and the killer wouldn't get many hooks.
Most of the time the survivors are the ones having to make the mistakes and alot of the roster doesnt have the control. It's one reason I dont do swf anymore, far too easy if everyone is my skill and if I get a group that isnt it massively ruins the matchmaking.
And if you can do awful chases that take ages to get a down and you can even admit that then you shouldn't win, if you did those survivors was bad and inefficient and therefore You should win.
But the whole you cant beat your own skill is true if you dont run gen defense or tunnel so yes that part is still true. Depending on your skill and how much gen defense and how "mean" you want to play
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DS was replaced by DS. People seem to forget that DS removes endurance. So now the new hotness is:
- OTR
- Dead Hard
- DS
- insert whatever
You get unhooked. You take the hit for the unhooker with OTR thats 1 hit. Now the killer will probably tunnel you, thats 2 hits. Then you land DS, then endurance is removed, so you can dead hard, thats 3 hits. Now a 4th to down and get second hook on you.
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I think you mean Exhaustion?
Wouldn't be surprised if that got removed though.
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No what i meant was deep wound. Dead hard "doesn't work" with OTR, because you already have deep wound after getting hit with it on. And the DS clears the deep wound.
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OTR is the closest thing to old DS, but OTR is much, MUCH easier to deal with for killers than old DS. It’s why tunneling is so broken and out of control at the moment. Just slap people insantly off the hook and OTR is gone. On top of that, they can’t use dead hard.
This is why kill rates are so ridiculously high at the moment. Survivors have no defense against tunneling.
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Oh right, I misremembered!
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