NOED and patience

Exactly,  there is nothing to stress over if you do the work.

TeaLeaf said:

I said this on another post but I will say it again, They don't like Noed because its a good perk and it punishes gen rushing aka helps counter play it. The issue is Noed is balanced for high rank play, where it can either slow the game down a little at high rank as people deal with dull totems or net the killer a few kills when the gates are powered they would not other wise be able to get in a 3-4 mins rush. This goes very well with non-top tier killers. Its at lower ranks however you find the perk can slaughter newer players who don really understand the game yet and generally are less skilled. It also makes it where if a person combines it with camping a single target when the gates are open, to ensure usually that 1 kill at least when the rest of the match went fubar and survivors are forced with a feeling of helplessness. Survivors are very not use to having feelings of helplessness in this game despite the supposed nature of the game or being put in a situation where they should choose to cut their losses, noed can give a killer the power to make survivors make hard chooses under specific circumstances. Given the general self entitlement and toxisity of the community as well, this can be very amplified by the vocal minority who really don't want balance.

That's actually the first good criticism I've seen of NOED. It's a lot harder for new survivors to handle because often times they struggle to get 5 gens done in the first place, so doing that and 5 totems is a pretty hefty task if you can't genrush well.

@ClogWench said:
TeaLeaf said:

I said this on another post but I will say it again, They don't like Noed because its a good perk and it punishes gen rushing aka helps counter play it. The issue is Noed is balanced for high rank play, where it can either slow the game down a little at high rank as people deal with dull totems or net the killer a few kills when the gates are powered they would not other wise be able to get in a 3-4 mins rush. This goes very well with non-top tier killers. Its at lower ranks however you find the perk can slaughter newer players who don really understand the game yet and generally are less skilled. It also makes it where if a person combines it with camping a single target when the gates are open, to ensure usually that 1 kill at least when the rest of the match went fubar and survivors are forced with a feeling of helplessness. Survivors are very not use to having feelings of helplessness in this game despite the supposed nature of the game or being put in a situation where they should choose to cut their losses, noed can give a killer the power to make survivors make hard chooses under specific circumstances. Given the general self entitlement and toxisity of the community as well, this can be very amplified by the vocal minority who really don't want balance.

That's actually the first good criticism I've seen of NOED. It's a lot harder for new survivors to handle because often times they struggle to get 5 gens done in the first place, so doing that and 5 totems is a pretty hefty task if you can't genrush well.

It's honestly the big issue with the game overall in terms of balance. We have for survivors 4 areas, High skill vs low skill, and solo vs swf. Every time you balance for one area you mess up the other spectrum. High ranks will exploit the game to where killers won't bother or use the most desperate tactics for lack of any other options. If you balance for high skill its a harsh type of learning low skill and solo have to deal with. In the end, given the single mode of play the game offers the only option is to balance for higher skilled players and keep the game alive.

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I hate this 'punish genrush' mentality. That's the only objective survivors have to open the gates. What your essentially saying is "it punishes survivors for doing their objective as fast and efficiently as possible."

I agree that genrush is an issue, but stop defending band-aid fixes. The devs need to actually fix it. So what if NOED nets you a few kills? The game was still over in five minutes after waiting who knows how long with how inconsistent lobbies are..

Noed isn't a anti-gen rush mentality its a counter play to it. Same as one who really hates the doctor takes calm spirit, or some one who hates being slugged takes the perks for its counter. That is what perks are, its the player trying to either cover their own weakness or trying to implement counter play to another strategy. Gen Rush is a thing and is fine as long as the other side has options and strategies to try and counter play it. Perk choose is just one step towards that, and noed happens to be one of the best options at the moment.

Except the doctor, calm spirit, or perks to counter slugging aren't massive, game breaking issues. Gen rush is and it needs a real fix, not a band-aid. But at the same time, I've seen comments, one in this very discussion, that says NOED 'punishes' gen rush, as if survivors doing the only objective to escape warrants punishment. And even if NOED is a counterplay to a broken gameplay mechanic, than it isn't a very good one. Even if you get a kill out of it, the game was still over stupidly quick.

@MegsAreEvil said:
Genrush doesnt exist. Its survivors objective to do Gens as fast as possible. NOED just rewards killers for NOT doing their objective properly and punishes survivors for doing their objective efficiently and thats the problem. If DS is considered toxic, what aboutNOED? Its far worse AND far more used. Everybody telling DS is toxic and needed a change has to say the same about NOED, otherwise its just a unprejudiced perspective.

When i was speaking of as a perspective of counter play vs punishment this is the exact mentality I mean. Noed isn't a punishment, its a counter play and a line of defense. The argument presented here is a super simplistic one "I am suppose to do gens, any thing that hinders that is bad, noed is punishing me for doing my job" with out considering any thing eles. The fact that killers are suppose to stop the escape even when gens are done. That the game isn't over until you open the gates and leave. That to set up a this defense the killer gives up a perk for all but that end portion of the game with no guarantee it will afford them any use besides a small increase in game time. There are even builds who focus only only the end game which are stratgies some people enjoy. Mr. Panda and his blood warden is quite popular. I digress however, the point I am trying to say the perspective noed is some how a punishment for surviors and a reward for killers is silly. It is a perk largely taken to help counter .. and since the term gen rush is liked ... unbalanced over efficiency of gen completion...

In short gen rush isn't real when the opposing side has strategies and options against it, noed is simply one avenu to that end.

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I hate this 'punish genrush' mentality. That's the only objective survivors have to open the gates. What your essentially saying is "it punishes survivors for doing their objective as fast and efficiently as possible."

I agree that genrush is an issue, but stop defending band-aid fixes. The devs need to actually fix it. So what if NOED nets you a few kills? The game was still over in five minutes after waiting who knows how long with how inconsistent lobbies are..

Noed isn't a anti-gen rush mentality its a counter play to it. Same as one who really hates the doctor takes calm spirit, or some one who hates being slugged takes the perks for its counter. That is what perks are, its the player trying to either cover their own weakness or trying to implement counter play to another strategy. Gen Rush is a thing and is fine as long as the other side has options and strategies to try and counter play it. Perk choose is just one step towards that, and noed happens to be one of the best options at the moment.

Except the doctor, calm spirit, or perks to counter slugging aren't massive, game breaking issues. Gen rush is and it needs a real fix, not a band-aid. But at the same time, I've seen comments, one in this very discussion, that says NOED 'punishes' gen rush, as if survivors doing the only objective to escape warrants punishment. And even if NOED is a counterplay to a broken gameplay mechanic, than it isn't a very good one. Even if you get a kill out of it, the game was still over stupidly quick.

I will agree that the game can go by too fast at times, the killer is always the one counting down how much time every thing takes them to do given the nature of the game. However as some might see it as punishing I see it as setting up a last line of defense, but perspectives differ for differ people. Tomato Tamato.

In terms of fixing gen rush as an element, do the devs want it fixed or is it acceptable to them. Some people don't like it, just like some people don't like camping (stratgic camping! Not talking bout 1st hook face camping). However its a part of the game but why? One reason I can think of is the fact that DBD is a simplistic game. If you add gen time to fix gen rush survivors complain "oh i have to hold m1 even longer now". Secondary objectives is often suggested for it, which is what noed and hex's offer. How do you address the issue then? Noed mere existence can cause some people to stop and do totems regardless if its used or not, and that is more effective than even ruin. However its all a game to game kinda thing, case their are so many variables to try and balance.

The difference between NOED and direct secondary objectives is that those objectives would be necessary to do and easier to track due to the fact that you can see the generators being done on the HUD. And since they're necessary and would be part of the core of the game, randos would be more likely to do them instead of brush it off as a "I'll do it if I feel like it." kinda thing. You're completely right about the variables. While NOED can hurt solos, it's very weak against a coordinated SWF team. But I think this only makes it worse, at is makes the divide between solo and SWF even bigger.

People say to just spread out and do totems, but it's not easy if the killer is applying pressure and you have to save others (or be saved yourself). On top of that, there's no way to tell how many are left.

Ask yourself this say god picks u up. and drops u into a random location and says. do 5 gens and I'll open the gates to let u out. Be aware I've also added a person for my amusement who job is to kill u...
Do u a do gens and GTFO of there
Or do u wander around looking and exploring idk about u but I know what I'd do 

@Cardgrey said:
Ask yourself this say god picks u up. and drops u into a random location and says. do 5 gens and I'll open the gates to let u out. Be aware I've also added a person for my amusement who job is to kill u...
Do u a do gens and GTFO of there
Or do u wander around looking and exploring idk about u but I know what I'd do 

But it's a video game with 0 IRL consequences.

@ClogWench said:
SenzuDuck said:

@ClogWench said:

NOED punishes genrush. That's why people hate it. 

It also rewards camping.

I don't use NOED but when killers camp they say to do gens, when you do gen too fast and you get hit by NOED they say to do totems.

If you don't gen rush with a camping killer someone will die and another person will be camped.

I don't have an issue with noed but lets not pretend it doesn't reward really scummy camping gameplay and punish survivors who are being smart against campers.

Do gens and totems. No matter what it's always avoidable. 

No it's not.

Doing Gens & Finding all the totems before the camped survivor dies is a big ask, you either do all the gens the survivor dies and the killer gets to camp another with NOED or You do the gens, and the totems by the time thats done the killer is on his second.

When genrush is sorted then noed can be sorted if I am against a seriously annoying swf or really competent survivors then genrush occurs especially as I don't have ruin on all my killers yet. NOED helps me a little bit I sit I don't always need more because usually in most games I have 4k before it lights but when I do need it I like to have it.

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I hate this 'punish genrush' mentality. That's the only objective survivors have to open the gates. What your essentially saying is "it punishes survivors for doing their objective as fast and efficiently as possible."

I agree that genrush is an issue, but stop defending band-aid fixes. The devs need to actually fix it. So what if NOED nets you a few kills? The game was still over in five minutes after waiting who knows how long with how inconsistent lobbies are..

Noed isn't a anti-gen rush mentality its a counter play to it. Same as one who really hates the doctor takes calm spirit, or some one who hates being slugged takes the perks for its counter. That is what perks are, its the player trying to either cover their own weakness or trying to implement counter play to another strategy. Gen Rush is a thing and is fine as long as the other side has options and strategies to try and counter play it. Perk choose is just one step towards that, and noed happens to be one of the best options at the moment.

Except the doctor, calm spirit, or perks to counter slugging aren't massive, game breaking issues. Gen rush is and it needs a real fix, not a band-aid. But at the same time, I've seen comments, one in this very discussion, that says NOED 'punishes' gen rush, as if survivors doing the only objective to escape warrants punishment. And even if NOED is a counterplay to a broken gameplay mechanic, than it isn't a very good one. Even if you get a kill out of it, the game was still over stupidly quick.

I will agree that the game can go by too fast at times, the killer is always the one counting down how much time every thing takes them to do given the nature of the game. However as some might see it as punishing I see it as setting up a last line of defense, but perspectives differ for differ people. Tomato Tamato.

In terms of fixing gen rush as an element, do the devs want it fixed or is it acceptable to them. Some people don't like it, just like some people don't like camping (stratgic camping! Not talking bout 1st hook face camping). However its a part of the game but why? One reason I can think of is the fact that DBD is a simplistic game. If you add gen time to fix gen rush survivors complain "oh i have to hold m1 even longer now". Secondary objectives is often suggested for it, which is what noed and hex's offer. How do you address the issue then? Noed mere existence can cause some people to stop and do totems regardless if its used or not, and that is more effective than even ruin. However its all a game to game kinda thing, case their are so many variables to try and balance.

The difference between NOED and direct secondary objectives is that those objectives would be necessary to do and easier to track due to the fact that you can see the generators being done on the HUD. And since they're necessary and would be part of the core of the game, randos would be more likely to do them instead of brush it off as a "I'll do it if I feel like it." kinda thing. You're completely right about the variables. While NOED can hurt solos, it's very weak against a coordinated SWF team. But I think this only makes it worse, at is makes the divide between solo and SWF even bigger.

However that is the general problem with the game as a whole, is that high skill vs low skill, and solo vs swf is all in a single game mode which they are trying to balance for. Every time you balance for one it complicates the other. Balance for low skill solo and high skill or swf or high skilled swf will exploit the leeway into an unplayable state (has been seen before). Try to balance for high skill in general and you make a steep learning curve for low skill and new players, which i feel is a primary source of complainers on both sides.

I personally wouldn't mind secondarily objectives or a more complex game mode then we have now. Perhaps popup quests for a gen your working on, you have to go get a part some where on the map to continue progress on it would add so much flavor to the game. However I am not sure we will see such.

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@TeaLeaf said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:
I hate this 'punish genrush' mentality. That's the only objective survivors have to open the gates. What your essentially saying is "it punishes survivors for doing their objective as fast and efficiently as possible."

I agree that genrush is an issue, but stop defending band-aid fixes. The devs need to actually fix it. So what if NOED nets you a few kills? The game was still over in five minutes after waiting who knows how long with how inconsistent lobbies are..

Noed isn't a anti-gen rush mentality its a counter play to it. Same as one who really hates the doctor takes calm spirit, or some one who hates being slugged takes the perks for its counter. That is what perks are, its the player trying to either cover their own weakness or trying to implement counter play to another strategy. Gen Rush is a thing and is fine as long as the other side has options and strategies to try and counter play it. Perk choose is just one step towards that, and noed happens to be one of the best options at the moment.

Except the doctor, calm spirit, or perks to counter slugging aren't massive, game breaking issues. Gen rush is and it needs a real fix, not a band-aid. But at the same time, I've seen comments, one in this very discussion, that says NOED 'punishes' gen rush, as if survivors doing the only objective to escape warrants punishment. And even if NOED is a counterplay to a broken gameplay mechanic, than it isn't a very good one. Even if you get a kill out of it, the game was still over stupidly quick.

I will agree that the game can go by too fast at times, the killer is always the one counting down how much time every thing takes them to do given the nature of the game. However as some might see it as punishing I see it as setting up a last line of defense, but perspectives differ for differ people. Tomato Tamato.

In terms of fixing gen rush as an element, do the devs want it fixed or is it acceptable to them. Some people don't like it, just like some people don't like camping (stratgic camping! Not talking bout 1st hook face camping). However its a part of the game but why? One reason I can think of is the fact that DBD is a simplistic game. If you add gen time to fix gen rush survivors complain "oh i have to hold m1 even longer now". Secondary objectives is often suggested for it, which is what noed and hex's offer. How do you address the issue then? Noed mere existence can cause some people to stop and do totems regardless if its used or not, and that is more effective than even ruin. However its all a game to game kinda thing, case their are so many variables to try and balance.

The difference between NOED and direct secondary objectives is that those objectives would be necessary to do and easier to track due to the fact that you can see the generators being done on the HUD. And since they're necessary and would be part of the core of the game, randos would be more likely to do them instead of brush it off as a "I'll do it if I feel like it." kinda thing. You're completely right about the variables. While NOED can hurt solos, it's very weak against a coordinated SWF team. But I think this only makes it worse, at is makes the divide between solo and SWF even bigger.

However that is the general problem with the game as a whole, is that high skill vs low skill, and solo vs swf is all in a single game mode which they are trying to balance for. Every time you balance for one it complicates the other. Balance for low skill solo and high skill or swf or high skilled swf will exploit the leeway into an unplayable state (has been seen before). Try to balance for high skill in general and you make a steep learning curve for low skill and new players, which i feel is a primary source of complainers on both sides.

I personally wouldn't mind secondarily objectives or a more complex game mode then we have now. Perhaps popup quests for a gen your working on, you have to go get a part some where on the map to continue progress on it would add so much flavor to the game. However I am not sure we will see such.

Yeah, I feel like the devs didn't really consider things as much as they should've. They didn't really put enough thought into the advantages of SWF or how some things affect the skill curve of DBD, but I still think we should try to balance the game as best we can. It'll never be perfect, but that's why we have forums, so we can discuss and share our opinion with the devs. At the very least, they're willing to actually listen.

Well when you can actually find people who are willing to hold an un-biased discussion any way . It happens! Just not as often as it should. They are I heard however trying to integrate the boons provided with SWF to solo players. If its done well it will might allow the elimination of a confounding variables to the games formula, allowing things to be balanced as if SWF is the constant. This universal buff to survivor play with the necessary following buffs to killer play is probably the most hopeful promise we have for game balance in the long run.

@IamFran said:

@MegsAreEvil said:
Genrush doesnt exist. Its survivors objective to do Gens as fast as possible. NOED just rewards killers for NOT doing their objective properly and punishes survivors for doing their objective efficiently and thats the problem. If DS is considered toxic, what aboutNOED? Its far worse AND far more used. Everybody telling DS is toxic and needed a change has to say the same about NOED, otherwise its just a unprejudiced perspective.

Again, another who probably have played 1 hour killer and say genrush is the killer not doing his job...
As I have said in other thread before,
I ask how the hell I can patrol 7 gens with a regular 115% speed killer to avoid a genrush. If you have bad luck and the first two or three gens you check don't have any survivor working, the first gen will be done shortly or already done, also in the time you spend in the first chase and first hook (a survivor without DS) the first gen is done, even if you see a survivor 15 or 20 seconds after the trial starts and you have to hook the survivors twelve times (without considering moris or not being saved before the struggle). Or maybe you think everyone play Nurse or Billy.
I personally use Ruin rather than NOED, but using NOED is legitimal to counter a genrush in the late game.

Your feeding a troll, I already gave em their cookie! Gonna spoil em nods Clearly their not makeing an argument, their simply stating feels not points of discussion while stroking their e peen and simultaneously taking a condescending stance.