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Why would BHVR do this?
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Knight literally got buffed this patch
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By bringing solo queue up to SWf levels we can finally balance killer around these 2 sections of survivors
It’s really not that hard to understand
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BHVR absolutely cares about killers. More so than about survivors, even. The problem is that killers want to have their cake and eat it too, and that's where BHVR doesn't go along with them.
BHVR is aiming for balance, but where that balance point lies was left to the killers to decide, and what did the killers decide?
"Camping and tunnelling MUST stay"
So that became the balance point.
You're not having a good time? Well, that was the intent. Killers got what they asked for.
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thats killer... not killerS...
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Why’d you use blight? Icons didn’t change a damn thing for me. 😂
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The whole meta shake up was a killer buff patch and improved killer rates. Pretty recent all things considered
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The game you are looking for is Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It will be 4 survivors vs 3 killers. Both sides will be using voice coms so that won't be a balance concern. It is also being made by the people who made F13 (this time without all the pesky lawsuits).
-"There is nothing wrong with the UI update. It won't magically make all Survivors Seal Team 6 Killer stompers."
The hud change makes good survivors play more efficiently. This is a problem because efficient play already ruins the killer experience and this update made it worse. The hud changes might have been fair if the information was shown to everyone. Why do the survivors get to see hook stages and the killer doesn't? That's not fair. That hud was a lot better balancd when everyone had the same info for both sides.
Fundamentally speaking DBD is only a fair game if one side doesn't know what to do at any given moment. SWF is broken because you can tell each other what the killer is doing and what important tasks are almost finished or need attention. Think about it like this : the killer plays alone and has perfect unity. The survivors are not supposed to share information and as a result they play in limited unity. The second you combine DBD with voice coms you get survivors working in near perfect unison and it destroys any semblance of balance.
In the past two groups of 2 man SWF teams had no idea what the other team was doing. That made it bearable.
The killer incentive in my region has already been sitting at 100% for almost 24/7 for weeks - with the exception of mornings when survivors try their hand at killer when their SWF is offline.
Something like 1/10 players really enjoys playing killer enough to repeatedly play it AND be good at it. People need to remember that before the 6.0 patch it was a regular thing to have ~45 killers in the queue with 5000 survivors. We know this because people were collecting data and pinging the DBD servers.
Sorry but that's just False. Pop was by far the strongest and most used killer perk and it was obliterated. Why? Because only Premium killer perks (like Eruption) will be good from now on. Did you notice that more than one year later 2/3 of Pinhead's perks have not appeared in the shrine? That's because Deadlock is too good to let people use "for free".
The 6.0 patch should have just given killers Save the Best for last base kit since Survivors got free Borrowed time. Alternatively it should have given killers Deadlock base kit. Keep the perk exactly as it is and make it extend the timer by 30 seconds. Add rollback protection so that if two gens are completed the second is "rolled back" and returned to a 99% while blocked. They can rollback hits at pallets so they can rollback synchronized gen completion.
Fundamentally speaking the 6.0 patch made killer better vs solo survivors and weaker vs SWF teams due to instant gen regression perks getting nerfed. Also DH didn't really get nerfed as it is sometimes better and sometimes worse than before. It still has too high usage (and probably needs to double your healing rate as it gives you a 3rd health state).
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They definitely are not on the same level even with this HUD. A coordinated group will always be able to plan things out better than a group of solo players with the HUD. The HUD is simply aiming to close that gap as much as realistically possible.
Why? Because asymmetrical games like Dead by Daylight have a very unique balance problem: Both sides are not the same, so each side has to be balanced around the other. This gets even more complicated when you add solo players vs. groups into the mix. If we balance Killers around solo players, coordinated groups would have a field day. Meanwhile if we balanced Killers around coordinated groups, solo players would have a miserable time. By reducing the gap as much as possible, it gives us a much tighter range to balance around. Ultimately it's a necessary step in order to make the game more balanced.
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Eh...
The game you are looking for is Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It will be 4 survivors vs 3 killers. Both sides will be using voice coms so that won't be a balance concern. It is also being made by the people who made F13 (this time without all the pesky lawsuits).
Evil. Dead.
Dammit but that game needs to come to Steam, because it's the first APvP game I've played in ages that felt like a step forward innovation wise.
The killer incentive in my region has already been sitting at 100% for almost 24/7 for weeks - with the exception of mornings when survivors try their hand at killer when their SWF is offline.
Something like 1/10 players really enjoys playing killer enough to repeatedly play it AND be good at it. People need to remember that before the 6.0 patch it was a regular thing to have ~45 killers in the queue with 5000 survivors. We know this because people were collecting data and pinging the DBD servers.
I think a big part of this is how bizarrely awful survivor players can be to killer players in either victory or defeat.
Why?
Emanuel Goldstein comes to mind...and is also a reference literally nobody is going to get XD.
Sorry but that's just False. Pop was by far the strongest and most used killer perk and it was obliterated. Why? Because only Premium killer perks (like Eruption) will be good from now on. Did you notice that more than one year later 2/3 of Pinhead's perks have not appeared in the shrine? That's because Deadlock is too good to let people use "for free".
Nah.
Ruin was better than Pop for the most part, and I'd say that PR+DMS is still, by a mile, the most effective regression combo in the game today.
Eruption is getting Thana'd soon, looking at the recent dev announcement, so get ready for PR in maybe 50% of games.
The 6.0 patch should have just given killers Save the Best for last base kit since Survivors got free Borrowed time. Alternatively it should have given killers Deadlock base kit. Keep the perk exactly as it is and make it extend the timer by 30 seconds. Add rollback protection so that if two gens are completed the second is "rolled back" and returned to a 99% while blocked. They can rollback hits at pallets so they can rollback synchronized gen completion.
Ehhh...
6.1.0 had some great intentions, but the core problems were:
- The recovery time buff was not applied to killer powers, which left some of the weakest killers in the game (Demo especially) in the dust.
- For some reason, regression was nerfed and gen times were buffed (fair)...but then faster gen perks were buffed out the wazoo and new, even stronger ones were added. So rather than having gens be slower and regression less powerful, regression is mostly less powerful and gens can be substantially faster. That's just...why?
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Give killers a perk to read the icons too
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I...honestly think that SWF should be the balance target because wow can it feel like night and day facing even a casual group versus a bunch of solos.
Survivors can choose to play in an SWF. Killers cannot choose not to face one. And unless you fancy stalking through Steam profiles, it's impossible to know before you go in - and this contributes to an unpleasant atmosphere for solos as killers either need to bring their best or go in guns blazing or, by the time they realize that they're facing a murder squad, they've got 2 hooks and the gates are open.
Three more things that could be done to close the gap a little further.
- Survivors can see each other's perks in pregame, to reduce the chances of getting 4x Kindreds and 3 different boons on 3 different people.
- Progress % on goals. This would be huge.
- The ability to set a status. I.e. 'I'm going for Cenobite's box'. 'I'm heading towards the hooked person'. 'I'm going to try for a save, get ready'.
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I think its more important to nurf sweaty swf, than buff solo.(Yes I know Solos needed a buff) I think a good change would be that while playing in a group you cant equip the same perk twice. Mean if you have 4 solos they can have 4 DH. If you play against two dou Survivor Teams max DHs would be two( one for each duo). If you play against a four man swf only one can bring DH. This concept would work for every other Survivorperk in the game. Items I would treat the same way mean a four man swf cant bring 4 Medkits/Toolboxes/Flashlight. You only could bring for example one Medkit, one Toolbox, one flashlight and one Map. This change would be a strong to swf and wouldnt change solo que at all.
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Every Killer enjoy Solo Surviovor Matches more, because an swf is nearly an instant lose, if the swf have played dbd for more than 500h, which itsnt mutch in dbd.
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It's a cute idea, but BHVR have emphatically said they will never, ever do this - because it would feel like folks are being punished for playing together.
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Maybe let's wait for a bit until we draw conclusions?
The solo has been largely miserable for a lot of players. (Mine is mostly fine)
Let's see where it takes the game in a couple of weeks.
Maybe killers will just have to simply play as hard against solos than SWFs.
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Can you pls stop bringing the same argument all the time. Yes blight and Nurse need nurfs, but there are 28 other Killers in this game. Survivors dont like Slowdown Perks fine, but fakt is NEARLY ALL Killers need those Perks to have a chance. I play most of the time Killers like Trapper, Pig, Fredy usw and when I try to play whiteout slowdown perks I get complettly stompt by two insta Heals and two BNP, if I had played Nurse that match, than it would be a very hard match, but I have the ability to mabye get something.
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Which is why this change was necessary as it allows us to close the gap between solo and SWF so we can buff killer accordingly
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Yeah but somthing needs to be done. As Killer you cant handle 4 DH, 4 Medikits or something like this. (I mean all Killers that arent Nurse or blight)
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No matter what anyone here says, this is all just speculation until we see the next kill rates. Do I, personally, think they will be lower now? Probably. Solos don't waste as much time as before with 2 people going for the unhook, not knowing if the killer is coming to their gen or maybe just chasing a survivor nearby. With the upcoming Eruption nerf that might shift further. However, BHVR told us that they were happy with the kill rate being around 60% so I reckon that they will introduce further killer buffs, if necessary.
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My solo q experience is still the same as it was before the icons, now I just have confirmation my teammates are doing nothing. I'm running Kindred and I'm still being left in first hook to die when my teammates can both see the aura of someone running around across the map and see they have the chase icon going. When I do get saved I also still have multiple people coming when they can see each others aura and that no one is on gens.
The icons aren't all of a sudden making solo same level as swf because in solo q the mentality is still every one looking out for themselves.
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Survivor players lost their mind with the 6.1.0 update that gave killers fractions of seconds shaved off of actions and fractions of a second shaved off of survivor sprint burst. Pray tell, what exactly would be a 'suitable buff' for a killer due to solo getting bufffed to swf level of info? Everyone always does this hand wavey "buff solos to swf then buff killers to compensate!!" but I would love to know what exactly that entails outside of meaningless buffs similar to base pop taking off a measly 2.5% = .025 * 90 = 2.25 seconds worth of solo survivor time on a gen.
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This reads like parody lol.
I haven't noticed much a difference tbh, solos do better sure but bad players still make bad plays. Nothing has changed you still tunnel out the weak link you just have less room for mistakes now.
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They don’t care at all about the killer experience. What matters to them is making it so survivors who don’t know the game have a fighting chance against everyone, while balancing killers around the absolute highest level of play.
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-"Ruin was better than Pop"
Both versions of Ruin that got nerfed were better only vs noobs. The only time Ruin was good was 1) Back when Thrill of the hunt came out (trill got nerfed as a result). 2) When you could use ruin/undying pre nerf OR when you could use Pop WITH ruin.
Old Old Ruin with only great skill checks counting as progress was only valuable because in that time Great checks gave 2.4 seconds each. Currently they give 1.2 seconds each. Four players making 10 great checks each = 48 seconds now and 96 seconds in the past.
-"For some reason, regression was nerfed and gen times were buffed (fair)"
Fair? Not in the slightest. Pop used to give me 6-9 instances of 20 seconds regression per game. That increased the survivor objective by 2-3 minutes. This allowed for the absolute BS state of the game vs 4x DH per game. Instead now gens take +10 seconds which is 50 seconds once per game.
Fair would have been : Killer regression speeds changed to be 1:1 with survivor repair speed based on the number of living survivors. Four alive survivors is 1:1, three is 1:0.75, two is 1:0.5, one is 1:0.25. For ease of clarification current regression is 1:0.25.
In other words : the killer has 1/4th the regression speed of one survivor and there are four survivors.
Now I have to use perks like Overcharge and CoB - both of which do nothing if a survivor goes back to the gen while I chase one away.
Deadlock was not made Base kit to prevent generator tunneling but Borrowed time was made base kit - that's straight up not fair. This one change made killers tunnel harder because too much time gets wasted.
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Respectfully I do not agree with your approach to balance! You say the best way to balance this game is to balance it revolved around bridging the gap between swf and this new hud but this will not balance the game at all imo and only make things worse.
If you ask me personally the game will be balanced much better if you do another perk shake up/rework and buff weak and weaker killers. SWF will destroy every killer that's not Nurse (good) or maybe Blight. Coordinated survivors (new hud ui) makes the weak killers struggle even more.
Luck needs to be reworked as well, why are none of the devs addressing luck anymore? I understand these things are not easy and you guys are doing the best you can but this is not the way you get proper balance! You are essentially holding survivors hands so they won't complain while ######### on competitive killer players! You "do" realize that killers have a hard time map wise right? Your so called random maps actually goes on the randomly disadvantage maps for killer in what will be I guess you guys attempt at balance. I would be ok with this until this ui hud totally is killing the killer experience. You guys are taking away from what made or makes DBD unique, why? Why fix something that's not broken! DBD was not broken up until this point. Just my opinions and criticism I hope you don't mind!
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Average killer main getting mad that the weakest thing in the game is getting some love.
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Buff Killers (mainly Trapper, Clown, Pig, Ghost face and Legion), Do another perk rework (nerfing Eruption, COB and buffing perks like Ruin etc), rework "Luck".
Telepathic by Daylight that's what the game should be renamed too, it's so dumb!
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The only issue I have is Stealth killers are given away with the chase Icon. I don't think it should show chase unless its the obsession as that gives you free info that says your safe to do gens without worry till that chase icon disappears. I get the idea behind all the other icons but I don't think the chase one is good for the game.
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Killers actually got one buff in this patch. It's harder to wiggle out for survivors noticed this in few games where survivors would wiggled off from me but with the nerf to wiggle I got them on hooks.
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It's time to add 2vs8 mode in dbd or players will move to that game to play killer with friends. I will play much less dbd ones it comes out.
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dbd players when their opponents aren’t literally miserable 😨
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SoloQ= bad players + more information = better players? Bad players use information well.
Killers complain about SWF's, so we buff survivors so they can play more like SWF's .
SWF's still see aura still gets more information, somehow can't utilize it aswell and it doesn't affect them either Or even disproportionately since obviously they are SWAT team in the comms.
a magical buff is coming for killers COPIUM, and they will somehow get compensated. They promised it with this HUD right? they explicitly said "this is power for survivors not soloq players so we will give power to killers"
everything honestly seems super reasonable. I love that its really annoying to like visually and thematically killers like myers and ghostface and Pig. I deserve to get railed for buying and enjoying those killers. I deserve to lose every game if i don't play nurse/blight its honestly my choice and i should get punished for it . My favorite memories is when i get a turbo swf against me thanks dbd i will enjoy when the overall game level is higher because high level games is whats fun in dbd.
i will say tho, i dont blame the devs. Since almost the entire landscape of gaming uses HUD's and ping systems to help players communicate non verbally better. The only reason i dislike this change is because of the reasoning. If the reasoning is we need soloQ players stronger, then make a change that affects them only. This legit just raises every type of survivor player, and arguably a better player uses information better. and this change will just help average and bad SWF's to elevate their level.
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Are you that afraid of solo q players being at the level of swf in terms of information?
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You call a 1 sec wiggle timer decrease, 1 second that was there to test the new wiggle system and thus going to be removed anyway, a buff? You cannot be serious? That is not a buff... That is testing over, no longer required thus removed.
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You say the best way to balance this game is to balance it revolved around bridging the gap between swf and this new hud but this will not balance the game at all imo and only make things worse.
You make it sound like the devs are only bridging the gap between solo and SWF and stopping there. What Peanits said about bridging the gap is "it gives us a much tighter range to balance around," which means the balance part comes after bridging the gap; bridging the gap is not itself the balance.
this is not the way you get proper balance
Killers can't be balanced around two different strengths of opponents. Solo survivors and SWF will always be two different strengths, but the gap has historically been so large between the two that it's been impossible to properly balance killers. The smaller the gap between solo and SWF, the better the game can be balanced. If you want killers to be able to be made stronger, first they need a more stable strength of opponent to be balanced against.
the game will be balanced much better if you do another perk shake up/rework
The devs already said they're doing that. The roadmap posted earlier specifically talked about this.
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more training wheels for bad survivors
more tools to abuse for strong survivors
there are only a couple killers that can hang with a team of good survivors. one of them just got nerfed.
so now we are in the "lets wait and see" part of dbd balance. which means killers are going to get some tiny buffs in a few years. soon they will add free basekit unbreakable for survivors and we will continue to wait and see.
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You make it sound like the devs are only bridging the gap between solo and SWF and stopping there. What Peanits said about bridging the gap is "it gives us a much tighter range to balance around," which means the balance part comes after bridging the gap; bridging the gap is not itself the balance.Just as a quick exmaple. Myers Ghostface, trapper,Clown, all of these killers were Destroying the solo players and the reason they recieved no changes is because they would destroy the soloQ experience? Is the track record of these killers fairly grim in the games lifespan? They don't receive significant buffs because the gap between soloq and swf is too large? Massive cap. Not to mention you could have used a chat wheel for people to use to pre determined lines that you can signal to your teammates. That would ONLY improve the experience of SoloQ players and not players across the board. Even their implementation is questionable and arguable.(if i was a survivor i would prefer a HUD display over chathweel for convenience. But in terms of strict balancing a chat wheel is more healthy)
Killers can't be balanced around two different strengths of opponents.just to not be cantankerous and argue for sake of arguing i can grant this, even tho this is not as set in stone as you representing it to be.
Solo survivors and SWF will always be two different strengths, but the gap has historically been so large between the two that it's been impossible to properly balance killers.Cap. The gap between swf and soloq play has nothing to do with how killers have been handled to this day. This statement is a non squitter. The gap historically has been large therfor impossible to properly balance killers? Killers have both been too strong or too weak regardless of the state of soloQ vs SWF. There is no changes that have been made to killers to Strictly make them stronger against SWF and weaker against soloq players. Changes made to killers largely affect both soloq and swf players equally.
The smaller the gap between solo and SWF, the better the game can be balanced.true.
If you want killers to be able to be made stronger, first they need a more stable strength of opponent to be balanced against.As an entire thing i would agree. but you can breach that gap with out buffing Swf's and strong players already.
i re-wrote several times and deleted harry potter book levels of text to trim down the criticism to not be as adversarial as i want to be. But do you not really acknowledge that there is a slew of killers that are just straight up bad against SWF's and soloQ? How have these killers limped through the existence of this game and have not gotten the appropriate changes?
Is there really no acknowledgement of the problem that this DOESN'T JUST HELP SOLOQ PLAYERS BUT SURVIVORS IN GENERAL?
is powercreep not a real concern in anyones eyes? (trapper legit on his design can't compete and requires a full rework just to get him in a decent state)
the OP that you criticize i dont even fully agree with him, but your way of criticizing him is loaded and one sided framed. first they "need a more stable strength of opponent to be balanced against." really? why not start at the killer why start from the survivors? maybe balance the killers first and then go with survivors. this is what im talking about . You favor survivors sooo hard and load and frame sentences from strictly survivors perspective and favor. That it just really sounds like biased non sense.
The hud is here to stay, and i dont think they should remove it or try to screw with it. It did make the soloQ player stronger, it also made every other survivor stronger. It didn't make bad players better, it made good players even stronger. I personally think there are bunch of killers that need nerfs, but there are a bunch of bottom of the barrel killers that really deserves love that they haven't gotten for years. The gap indeed needs to be shrunk, but this was a bad way to do it .
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Give Killers the choice to decide if they want to play against a swf or not. Since swf is one of the reasons cited for the Killer losing, having an indicator in the lobby for swf players will give them a heads up that the match may be much more harder.
If a Killer still decides to load up against a 3/4 man and gets destroyed, at least they knew what to expect going into the match.
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Not to mention you could have used a chat wheel for people to use to pre determined lines that you can signal to your teammates.
I think the devs addressed this: a chat wheel was considered, but having to localize the text for every language is a lot more work than using universal icons in the HUD.
There is no changes that have been made to killers to Strictly make them stronger against SWF and weaker against soloq players.
I can't think of any changes that could be made to make a killer stronger against SWF but weaker against solo queue. However, the devs have talked about how they make design decisions that try to keep killers from being a lot stronger against solo than SWF, like giving killers map-wide audio queues so SWF don't have information about what the killer's doing (like telling each other over comms "Hey, I just saw the killer teleport, watch out!") that solo players don't.
Changes made to killers largely affect both soloq and swf players equally.
Because the big things SWF players have that solo players don't is access to information and the ability to coordinate. There's only so much info the devs can give survivors about the killer's actions and keep the game interesting. It's difficult to change a killer and have it not affect both solo and SWF equally, which is why solo and SWF survivors need to be closer to equal themselves.
why not start at the killer why start from the survivors?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why the devs would choose to do that, balance one side against two different groups at the same time. It seems easier to balance the two groups so it's more like one group, and then balance killers against that.
You favor survivors sooo hard and load and frame sentences from strictly survivors perspective and favor. That it just really sounds like biased non sense.
Not really. All I really said is that there are three groups: killers, solo survivors, and SWF. It's killers vs solo and SWF. Between each other, solo and SWF are not balanced. Trying to balance one thing against a group of things that are themselves imbalanced is an illogical way to go about updating a game. Bringing solo queue up while minimizing the effect on SWF before doing large updates to strengthen killers is a logical way to prioritize the order in which things are changed to minimize frustration and waste.
There are currently 30 killers in DbD, each with their own unique power, some of them with different walking speeds. If I'm correct, there are 106 different killer perks. As far as I can tell, what you and OP are suggesting is that you'd prefer the devs to look at 30 different killers and 106 different perks and balance those against 2 different groups of players, solo and SWF, instead of bridging the gap between solo and SWF so that the 30 killers and 106 perks only have to be balanced against survivors as one group.
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You know it's funny. Killers got a buff to base kit and that was needed but weirdly now that solo survivor actually has information to help them, it's a problem.
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Swfs will never find a game. All because solo queue = easy kills. Dog forbid you have a challenge and lose once in awhile.
Your balancing solution is to buff weaker killers to be able to compete more effectively against swf? How is that balanced for solo queue? Solo queue makes up the vast majority of the kill rates (hence why killer mains like yourself are upset they got a buff, you know solo is easy pickings) so they already get dominated plenty by weaker killers. Making weaker killers stronger will only make the game more difficult for solo players. How is that balance? The actual solution is exactly what BHVR are doing - buff solo to bridge the gap between solo and swf, and *then* make killer changes. That way solo still have a fighting chance once killers are buffed.
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Well, those perks are not dead... Kindred giving you the ability to see where your team is, and the killer if they're by the hook is still pretty valuable information. Wake Up, again valuable information to see which door is being opened as well as the perk user getting a speed boost to opening said door. There are also base elements of aura reading without equipping perks via seeing where the hooked person is being sacrificed, and that same survivor who got caught can see all of their teammates.
If you're arguing that the game isn't "realistic" enough, it shouldn't be; its a video game about people who get trapped inside a realm created by a supernatural force to be used as a mastermind's playthings. If we took real world logic into account, and injured survivor will eventually bleed out to death after leaving massive trails of blood everywhere, not to mention lose the strength to even walk/run. Bubba would completely massacre his prey instead of just knocking them down with a chainsaw hit.
The best way you can make sense of it all is the Entity is giving the survivor cast false hope as they cannot truly escape its realm. Otherwise, it's best not to make much sense of it at all.
Well honestly part of the surprise element is kind of a non-factor unless you're Myers, Ghostface, or Wraith as there are a number of killer specific objects/powers who are a dead giveaway to who you're facing in the trial.
The UI update isn't even a strong buff to survivor... sure, you get information on who is doing what, but you don't know which generator they're on. Is Bill across the map, or is he doing the next gen closest to the one I'm on? Is Haddie cleansing Hex: Ruin or spending time on a dull totem? Is the person not doing anything going to save our teammate on the hook, or are they hiding in a corner of the map?
Regardless of what information survivors now get, there are still levels of uncertainty that do not compare to what a SWF can accomplish. A SWF will still have the advantage of calling out who's being chased, who has what perks amongst them, who's the killer, who's working on which gen, which area still has pallets, coordinate a save from a camping killer, and even warm teammates about perks such as Eruption. A survivor in solo queue can only guess until it happens, unless they're being overly cautious. They also can't expect their teammates to have the same level of experience they possess.
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-"If the reasoning is we need soloQ players stronger, then make a change that affects them only"
It would make so much more sense to just nerf SWF. Add the rule : no repeats of characters/perks/items/offering. Lock out all changes except costumes while in queue.
That makes 2 man teams nearly the same and weakens 3/4 man groups. The no repeat part helps prevent bullying.
-"Myers Ghostface, trapper,Clown, all of these killers were Destroying the solo players and the reason they recieved no changes is because they would destroy the soloQ experience?"
Are you trying to say that Trapper was ruining the game for solo players more than Blight/Nurse? I think not.
Stealth killers were 100% ruined when a SWF member calls out the killer's location the entire game. The info the hud gives survivors is going to make everyone be more efficient so killers will respond by only playing the "better" killers.
-"There are currently 30 killers in DbD"
And of those 30 killers there are 2 that are viable against SWF on all maps. The rest might as well not exist if you only play efficient teams.
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The hud helps solo players and SWF. The problem is that SWF needs a nerf (see above: no repeats in a SWF).
Killers got random mediocre base kit buffs and survivors got a free fifth perk slot. Killer regression is still 1/16th of the survivor repair potential.
As a quick band aid they could just keep blight/nurse at 4 perk slots and give the others 6-8 depending on how weak they are.
Another fix for SWF/solo balance would be to give all solo players +4 perks that are chosen before going into a lobby. If the game has SWF then your 4 extra perks activate. Killers can pick any 4 perks and survivors can only take "iformation and aura reading" perks.
The SWF problem is that you get harder matches and less XP for going against a SWF. They essentially have extra perks due to voice coms. Give the solo players something to equalize the advantage.
Also it would be hilarious to play killer with 8 perks. I would choose to play against SWF teams to be able to bring 8 perks. That is the kind of thing the game needs. Killers should prefer to play against SWF games because they get an advantage to level the playing field.
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As a competent Killer I can say that Solo Q Survivors needed this for a long time and its 1000% deserved. Anybody deeply opposed to it is being biased unfortunately. While I understand that the game's foundation was designed for limited Survivor information and agree that certain past decisions were bad, the 4th wall was kinda shattered the moment they dropped the OG SWF... There are too many puzzle pieces on both sides to turn back now so I think its in the best interest of both sides to welcome this change + any smaller QoL adjustments for any Killers negatively impacted by it (mainly lower tiers)
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I think the devs addressed this: a chat wheel was considered, but having to localize the text for every language is a lot more work than using universal icons in the HUD.right so a lesser worse solution is applied in order to save expenses, that somehow is a reasonable excuse? doesn't that just indicate clear mind set and how is that problematic(i 100% know they would never say that, but to take that as somehow a valid excuse is a meme)
I can't think of any changes that could be made to make a killer stronger against SWF but weaker against solo queue. However, the devs have talked about how they make design decisions that try to keep killers from being a lot stronger against solo than SWF, like giving killers map-wide audio queues so SWF don't have information about what the killer's doing (like telling each other over comms "Hey, I just saw the killer teleport, watch out!") that solo players don't.Well neither of us are getting paid to solve the problems, and neither of us do that full time. I'd imagine that me and you could come up with something if we did think about it 8 hours a day. I highly doubt if i sat down and thought about it diligently for 8 hours that i couldn't come up with a solution, now you might not want to implement it for other reasons but if this was such a core problem you for sure could. Like for example When a killer faces a SWF of 2 or 4 gains X .
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why the devs would choose to do that, balance one side against two different groups at the same time. It seems easier to balance the two groups so it's more like one group, and then balance killers against that.Quite simple honestly, the discrepancy between not even the worst killer of the bottom maybe 8 killers and the top 3 is so massive. It might be as big as the gap between a soloq player and a SWF. the comparison of soloQ vs SWF implies that there is a massive gap and there is a gap, but that gap is 100% comparable to the worst killers vs the strongest killers. If you buff or even give any power to Survivors, it drowns out already some of the bottom end killers even more then they are now.
Because the big things SWF players have that solo players don't is access to information and the ability to coordinate. There's only so much info the devs can give survivors about the killer's actions and keep the game interesting. It's difficult to change a killer and have it not affect both solo and SWF equally, which is why solo and SWF survivors need to be closer to equal themselves.Verbal information vs showing you Accurate information is two different things. A survivor screaming vs a survivor having his aura shown are too different things. If a player is on the ground and you can see his recovery progress, that is information that a SWF could communicate to his team, VS they can LITERALLY see the progress bar. When someone says "im at 50%" that is not the same as actually seeing the bar at 50% . You still have to parse verbal information. Maybe someone is trying to communicate something else at the same time that clutters comms, and its not as easy to keep track of it . The other part of this is, Not every SWF is just sweating balls and trys to mimic a comp team. Most of my friends comms are like "oh i think he is coming, oh im gonna grief you, youre stupid" even in those cases my SWF right now is stronger. Average or even bad SWF's now are stronger and i would strongly argue that bad players in soloQ can't use the information REGARDLESS if its shown on screen or not. This mostly affect a small group of solo players that are probably at higher MMR's Red ranks or w/e. So even the characterization of "this helps SoloQ players" is wrong, it helps strong soloQ players who CAN utilize that information. So when you say "breaching the gap" you do realize this pushed more good players forward and a bunch of low level swfs forward. The lowly and opressed soloQ player who gets destroyed every game by all types of killers isn't benefiting from this. And this is not even taking in the account that people actually get MORE depressed seeing their teammates doing sub optimal sht. The premise of breaching the gap sounds great and im all aboard, but this is not it. Atleast this is not it in this sequence. Maybe 12 patches later this might play a big role in to why things have gotten better, but in the near foreseeable future this is just a straight up bad decision.
Your framing is very Survivor biased re-reading several times ur response to that claim i don't see how you disproved that in any way. Even the notion that somehow Nurse has anything in common with something like trapper or Myers is already a sign of lack of acknowledgement of the massive discrepancy between the 2 ends.Myer sucks equally against SWF and a solo Team, Trapper Sucks against solo's but suffers more against SWF's , and now even the soloQ players have more power to dunk on trapper.
Everytime someone advocates for more power for survivors its always choosing the champions of the killer side, Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Artist all lined up as pretending that this is the entire killer community. I don't particularly enjoy ANY of those killers, and to act like that is even the majority of killer mains is also laughable.
Like i said before, im not against buffing soloQ players they should get more power, the current HUD system benefits all survivor types and all the survivor subgroups. This is why the change isin't good. It could be as i stated before 10 patches down the line that it Could be that it plays a major role in the overall health of balance, as it stands today the change is ass. I even said before a chat wheel system would be more annoying and some people might not even participate, but even THAT is a better way of doing it when strictly talking about balance. Why would i give a granular fk about them saying "well we need to translate to several languages" as if that somehow makes the chatwheel a lesser option, thats on them. "killers will get something too" what is the trackrecord of this happening? there were no promises of anything for the killers. blind assumptions.
It would make so much more sense to just nerf SWF.agreed. 100% . however there is an issue of how people perceive buffs vs nerfs. I think optically people wouldn't like getting penalized especially some of the lesser SWF's that aren't going as hard. Optically this would be a tough call, as a rhetorical solution this is the best one. No idea about in practice.
-"Myers Ghostface, trapper,Clown, all of these killers were Destroying the solo players and the reason they recieved no changes is because they would destroy the soloQ experience?"
Are you trying to say that Trapper was ruining the game for solo players more than Blight/Nurse? I think not.The named killers there are Killers who struggle against non SWF players. it was to show and demonstrate how there are killers already that are nowhere near being "strong enough" and haven't received any changes lately. The whole idea that soloQ players are getting rammed and is the weakest role in non sense when it comes to bottom of the barrel killers. Myers is equally garbage against swfs and solo's id imagine Ghostface is exactly the same against SWF'S and solo's same with clown. I really don't think these characters would NEED or suffer anymore against stronger opponents. they already struggle with fairly weak opponents.
All of these survivor felatio artists always talk about the 3 same killers. When in reality, most killers aren't the top end destroyers that just run over soloQ players. there are killers who just get ran on period. And these are not some recent soon to be changed killers. These are killers that been around for a minute.
Post edited by coldestwinter123 on0 -
If swf never finding a game does happen, then it proves that the majority of the Killer base don’t like to go against swf. Has anyone ever stopped to question why a lot of Killer players would not want to go up against a swf? Or do they not matter since the Killer role is the minority? If the majority of the Killer base still believe that swf is much harder to handle as compared to solo queue , then solo queue players will need more buffs to reach the level of swf and the devs will have less issues in balancing Killers accordingly.
Devs can also add BP incentives for playing against swf starting from 2-4 man. They could even implement the ability to see swf for a trial period like how they tested different matchmaking criteria in live servers last year.
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Yeah, I honestly got it into my head that this update was going to be a massive survivor buff that made every solo group an essential SWF and that I was going to have to be dealing with 4E cumbstomps every other game, but I haven't noticed any difference playing as either killer or survivor. It's not that bad.
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DBD still doesn't make a difference if you're playing solo or with friends. That's why i don't really like the wording "solo buffs".
A good SWFs will always do better than good solos. And if you give survs free meta perks, guess who will provit the most?
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If a player is on the ground and you can see his recovery progress, that is information that a SWF could communicate to his team, VS they can LITERALLY see the progress bar. When someone says "im at 50%" that is not the same as actually seeing the bar at 50% . You still have to parse verbal information. Maybe someone is trying to communicate something else at the same time that clutters comms, and its not as easy to keep track of it
I am able to see my friend's progress bars. We glance at each other's screens all the time when we play together. Glancing at his screen and seeing the bar at 50% does not feel different from hearing him say it's at 50%. Sometimes having the visual info is actually less helpful than sharing the information vocally: when one of us is being chased, looking at the other person's screen is a distraction and the vocal communication of how close the exit gate is to being open is much more helpful than me flicking my eyes for a moment to glance at his screen to see the progress bar. Hell, since the update, I've failed more than a couple skill checks because I glanced at the HUD icons to see what the other survivors were up to.
I play solo survivor more than I play in a 2-man SWF, though, and the HUD icons have been really nice in solo queue: they tell me to stop running from the killer and let myself get hooked so I can move on to a new match, because no one else has touched a gen. It's a huge time saver and I for one am really happy to know for certain when my teammates are useless rather than having to guess. In the past, I have really hated being stuck in 30+ minute games where I discovered very late that my teammates were all crouching around the edges of the map. Those were the most boring and frustrating matches and one of the big reasons I avoid playing survivor so much. The HUD icons aren't going to suddenly make me more interested in playing survivor, but so far survivor has felt less awful while I've been doing the new tome challenges because I can avoid wasting time and energy on non-participating teammates.
Anyway, I feel like we're having two different conversations. I wasn't talking about weak vs strong killers or anything like that in my previous post. I was simply talking numbers, just numbers: 30 killers with unique powers each balanced against either 2 different strengths of survivors or against one similarly matched group of survivors. If I were in charge of a project like that, I'd look at the numbers and I'd prioritize it the way I already stated. You are looking at this a different way and you prioritize it differently, and reading your response it feels like we're having two different discussions. Our viewpoints apparently clash.
My original response which you replied to wasn't anything more than trying to clarify what the developer stated in his post because OP didn't seem to have a clear understanding. (If I was wrong about that, then I apologize to the OP, but to me it seemed like the OP was saying things that didn't line up with what the developer said and arguing for things that the roadmap said are already coming.)
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